Owning/exploiting Nazi Symbols

[HipsterDufus]

I was just wondering how you guys feel, in general, about the use/ownership of Nazi symbols. For instance, the band Death in June uses the Totemkopf (Nazi death skull, my avatar) in practically all of their albums. While obviously not Nazis (the band's lead singer is gay), they have coopted the symbol for their own use, mainly to shock listeners. Of course, Marilyn Manson did a similar, more watered down thing when he emulated the use of fascist symbols during one of his tours. No non-Nazi band that I know of has used the swastika yet in their work, but that doesn't mean that it won't happen in the future.

Also, how do you feel about the ownership of Nazi items for purely historical reasons? There are many websites out there that offer such things for sale such as www.thirdreich.ca and www.germaniainternational.com, both of which claim to offer their wares purely for historical reasons.

Let me just say that I am most certainly not a Nazi by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, I believe that it's a thin line to walk between using the symbols for art/fashion/etc. and maintaining respect for those that died in the holocaust. I use the totenkopf as my avatar because it is a powerful symbol that does a good job of elliciting reactions. However, what happens when Dior decides to use a shiny swastika on one of their dresses purely as a fashion symbol? As the holocaust fades further and further into our past, such uses become more likely. I don't have an answer, but I think that it's something deserving of discussion. For my final thought, I'm going to paraphrase Lenny Bruce: It is the repression of the symbol that gives it its power, its violence.

Is the repression of Nazi symbols giving them more power? Or is it the opposite effect?

[kellygrrrrrl]

I know I don't appreciate it being used as fashion/reaction/statement....etc...

It is disrespectful to me......

But that's just me.

I suppose that is exactly what those representing it want, is the shock value.

Disrespectful. Period.

I'm sure others may not agree however.

Repressing it isn't the answer.

People need to be informed about it.

The symbol itsself carries a heavy heavy burden. Represents so much power. There are people still alive today I'm sure that tremble at the memories of such tragedy just looking at the symbol.

blah blah blah

[HipsterDufus]

Wouldn't you agree though that sometimes its necessary for people to be jolted out of their comfort zones? So called liberals and libertarians stand to learn a lot about themselves when they get offended by seeing a swastika.

Point well-taken, btw.

[Msterbeau]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Anyone who's read a little on the subject knows the swastika predates the Nazi German use by a long t ime... Still. In western culture you're going to shock people by using it.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think my automatic knee-jerk response was "hell no". But thinking about it further its a lot more complex.

Yet another grey area. Theres tons of books that throw the swastika on the cover (that are not "historical books") But even so, that is use of the iconography for marketing purposes.

I actually have a heirloom SS ring with the deaths-head symbol along with the "SS" runes (yes both symbols being co-oped from previous culture) Although i think looks very cool, and has direct relevance to me as such its difficult to justify wearing in public even though it was willed to me from my grandfather. Not so much i dont think out of "respect for the holocaust" (which im pretty well read-on). But that the imagry still conjures up "you are a racist bastard" reactions which , similar to yelling fire in a crowded room, i think is probably ill-advised.

Seems difficult to judge such a thing. I mean just having a >skull

We are still to close to the events for them to be responsibliy used in a casual way i think. Just in terms of trying to have some consideration for others (logical or illogical) responses to such images. I'd LIKE to think we could use such images so publicly without people throwing a fit, but its unrealistic.

Its such a striking symbol though that i think it will continue to be used more and more openly until we do have designer clothing with it. Might be 100 years but its coming.

Im not sure that "intent" important as effect is. The effect , wont be to jar the american idol watchers into studying history. It will just piss them off and then they'll go back to muching the cheetos.

[HipsterDufus]

As a counterpoint, I find it interesting that, in America, you can use the hammer and sickle of the Russian communists as much as you want, even though they slaughtered 20 million of their own people. And that HAS been trasitioned into a fashion statement. I've seen hipsters using that around GR.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Wouldn't you agree though that sometimes its necessary for people to be jolted out of their comfort zones? So called liberals and libertarians stand to learn a lot about themselves when they get offended by seeing a swastika.

Point well-taken, btw.

Half the people reading this probably are "so called liberals". I'd guess many of them would take offense to this broad generalization of a very wide specturum of thought. Moreso than just seeing a swastika on a shirt.

As a counterpoint, I find it interesting that, in America, you can use the hammer and sickle of the Russian communists as much as you want, even though they slaughtered 20 million of their own people. And that HAS been trasitioned into a fashion statement. I've seen hipsters using that around GR.

Has it? I know it would sure piss my dad off. Sounds about right though. Less people have an understanding about comunist russia. Easier for "us" to become desensitized to it than say nazi germany.

Me personally it would probably irritate me not becasue of any real rational reason, but i'd probably unfairly assume the person wearing it didnt care and just thought they'd be a wise ass and get themselves some attention.

Hrmm come to think of it i guess i need to let that go. I didnt wear the full goth getup for years becasue i DIDNT want attention.

[Onyx]

I have to admit I admire Nazi uniforms. I've never seen any uniform so sharp and sexy, but when you think of the burden of human misery it represents, somehow it's not so attractive anymore.

I talked to a fellow at a club once who was dressed in one and he looked fabulous, but it was so distracting and it did make me wonder if he was a white supremacist. He also had a trace of a German accent which made it even more un-nerving. It both fascinates and repels me.

I doubt I'd feel comfortable myself dressed in anything with those connotations.

[HipsterDufus]

Half the people reading this probably are "so called liberals". I'd guess many of them would take offense to this broad generalization of a very wide specturum of thought. Moreso than just seeing a swastika on a shirt.

Indeed, that probably was an over-generalization. However, I was not refering to the people on this board.

[kellygrrrrrl]

Me personally it would probably irritate me not becasue of any real rational reason, but i'd probably unfairly assume the person wearing it didnt care and just thought they'd be a wise ass and get themselves some attention.

Yes....exactly.

[phee]

Yes....exactly.

And again yes....

How do you folks feel about the ever contraversial "Confederate Flag"? (if this was addressed earlier I apologize... I have only skimmed at this point)

[HipsterDufus]

And again yes....

How do you folks feel about the ever contraversial "Confederate Flag"? (if this was addressed earlier I apologize... I have only skimmed at this point)

I think I'd like to see a goth/industrial band exploit it and change its meaning.

[kellygrrrrrl]

Same concept......

I'd feel the same way as the last statement....or Troys last statement rather....

[HipsterDufus]

The thing that I love about Death in June is that it's fronted by a gay man. Can you imagine how much it must piss off neo-Nazis knowing that a band that exploits their symbols is being fronted by a gay man?

[phee]

The thing that I love about Death in June is that it's fronted by a gay man. Can you imagine how much it must piss off neo-Nazis knowing that a band that exploits their symbols is being fronted by a gay man?

People barely ever look deep enough for that to make much a difference unfortunatly

[Homicidalheathen]

I believe in the power of runes....mandalas.....sacred geometry.....that the way something is shaped has a slight effect on its surroundings especially when a thought about it is projected out into the astrial......ect ect....

And yes, I do think Hitler was into the occult to some extent.....

and that the symbol he used used to be a positive power symbol

But....he tainted it. Not just because your mind will associate something negative with it but.....the actual power of the shape is tainted as it was used for something so bad for so long in history.

So I won't use it now.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

My Grand Father served 2 tours in WWII. I will not own or wear anything with a nazi symbol on it. I desire to own a great many things from that period.. come on, Nazi SS uniforms are the shit.. but until he passes... I will respectfully never own anything with Nazi symbols on it.

[HipsterDufus]

Walking the thin line of being respectful is quite difficult. My grandfather also served in WW2 and is still alive today. I would never wear something like that in front of him. The reason that I started this topic is because I believe that this is something that is important for us to think about and consider where we draw our own lines of what we will and will not do. I appreciate the interesting and well thought-out responses.

[BrassFusion]

Does it elicit a reaction? Yes. Does it shock me, personally? Yes. Would I ever tell someone they have no right to display a swastika or some other hate-related symbol? No.

I have, however, been in conversation with at least one person I remember who's pretty obsessed with Nazi regalia. And the kid's 19 or 20. His interest doesn't seem to be "historical." He calls himself a Nazi, but then goes on to describe how the Nazi party had noble ideals before it was corrupted by "that crazy bastard Hitler."

Guy's a fucking moron. And I told him THAT. If he has the right to display swastikas, wear uniforms, and brag about the flag hanging in his bedroom and he's the "last true Nazi," then I have the right to tell him he's a douchebag and he's only trying to get attention and he doesn't care whether it's positive or negative. And I KNOW I'm not wrong, so there.

So yeah. I'll defend your right to be a douchebag. But what other kind of person would want to WEAR a swastika?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

History buffs...

and the Nazi party was a good thing in the begining... Socialism that worked for the most part... Then Hitler took away the guns and then the rights of anyone he didn't like.

[BrassFusion]

I can see history buffs wanting to own paraphernalia and swastikas, et. al., but WEARING them? You're just asking for it... at least in this day and age.

[HipsterDufus]

So yeah. I'll defend your right to be a douchebag. But what other kind of person would want to WEAR a swastika?

What about using it in art? I think that the image I attached is a very effective (but subtle) use of the swastika shape (this was intentional, btw). What about a more obvious use of its shape in other forms of art?

[phee]

What about using it in art? I think that the image I attached is a very effective (but subtle) use of the swastika shape (this was intentional, btw). What about a more obvious use of its shape in other forms of art?

Very grey area..... no answer to give

[HipsterDufus]

Here's an example of the Totemkopf used in DIJ's album artwork.

[BrassFusion]

For Death in June, I'm willing to say it's like a black guy wearing a Klan uniform. They're more or less "allowed" to without arousing suspicion.