What Will It Take

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

OK. Thats fair. Let me explain then. You asked what it would take to stop the evil... I gave my answer. I was specific in my answer. I don't think every Muslim is evil. I don't think every Arab or Persian is evil. I do think the crazy fuckers living in mud huts and caves along the Afghan/Paki border need to die . I believe that to the point I would drop the fire bombs on them myself given the chance and then eat a nice meal while I watched thier bodys smolder.

I know you fail to understand this. You are so focused (like many people) on the Hate for Bush that is consuming you that you can't even have a normal conversation anymore. If someone is putting blame on someone other than Bush for an evil... it just make no sense to you.

Don't get me wrong. I don't blindly agree with everything Bush has done or wants to do. He wants the same thing, in my opinion, that we all do. Peace. I do agree with him on one major point. We are never going to have peace if we just pretend that the Islamic extremists don't exist and dont want us all to die simply because we are not Muslim. I understand that we are going to have to kill a great many people before we can lay down our guns.

Sitting around pointing fingers and acting like you are somehow better than anyone that disagrees with you solves nothing.

Do you have a plan to fix the world? Don't try to give me "we should talk to them" They don't want to talk. They want you dead. You, Me Brassfusion and everyone we have ever known or will know. They wont accept anything else. This is a fight or die situation... if you can't see that... well, you need to get out more.

[BrassFusion]

OK. Thats fair. Let me explain then. You asked what it would take to stop the evil... I gave my answer. I was specific in my answer. I don't think every Muslim is evil. I don't think every Arab or Persian is evil. I do think the crazy fuckers living in mud huts and caves along the Afghan/Paki border need to die . I believe that to the point I would drop the fire bombs on them myself given the chance and then eat a nice meal while I watched thier bodys smolder.

I know you fail to understand this. You are so focused (like many people) on the Hate for Bush that is consuming you that you can't even have a normal conversation anymore. If someone is putting blame on someone other than Bush for an evil... it just make no sense to you.

Don't get me wrong. I don't blindly agree with everything Bush has done or wants to do. He wants the same thing, in my opinion, that we all do. Peace. I do agree with him on one major point. We are never going to have peace if we just pretend that the Islamic extremists don't exist and dont want us all to die simply because we are not Muslim. I understand that we are going to have to kill a great many people before we can lay down our guns.

Sitting around pointing fingers and acting like you are somehow better than anyone that disagrees with you solves nothing.

Do you have a plan to fix the world? Don't try to give me "we should talk to them" They don't want to talk. They want you dead. You, Me Brassfusion and everyone we have ever known or will know. They wont accept anything else. This is a fight or die situation... if you can'tee that... well, you need to get out more.

heh, you know, i kinda appreciate being referenced as one of the marked anglo devils that needs to die in the eyes of the muslim extremists. it's almost like you care about me.

(i wasn't even part of this discussion!!!!)

but yeah, the mud huts aren't just the adult male muslim extremists... that's more where they keep their women and children while they're off killing white people =(

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I mentioned you for that reason. I don't like you. I don't try to hide that. I in no way want you dead though. I would, believe this or not, die to save your life. I would rather live to save it.. but you know what I mean.

[Paper Hearts]

And I actually think Bush suffers from a bad sense of patriotic duty. That's what I assume for his motivations in questionable methods. And (it's my dirty little secret), I have voted Republican once in the past (although the challanger was on trial for rape). What I don't do is vote for people based on whether they are called 'left wing' or right wing'. And I really don't think it's usefull to reduce the situation down to that. I don't assume that socialism is more morally right than capitalism or responsible for more blood (referencing an earlier thread of yours). And to try to be clear, once again, I don't think that pointing out that certain people live in mud huts or tents makes any point. -And it's not even true. Again, J Walker Lindh, hatched right out through the same aluminium siding that probably gives us no edge over people in thatched huts as far as taste is concerned...if that is what sane people live in (aluminium siding). I don't care, in short, what your political views are concerning the war, it's not my buisness. -But if no one will stand up and say it but me, it's fine: bigotry is wrong.

And protesting Muslims 'prove the Pope correct' for quoting that Islam only teaches violence? That's not even what the Pope was trying to convey.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Perhaps you should look into the are I speak of... the area where most of the Taliban live and a good portion of the Al-Qaida leaders. Sheet metal is rare. Wood of size large enough to build with is rare. Houses are built from mud and straw like it has been done for eons. The Taliban and Al-Qaida live in caves in the mountains. Most of the houses in Kabul... a city that is pretty moderen in many respects, are made from hand made clay/straw bricks. I wasn't being a bigot. They do in fact live in mud huts, caves and tents. I don't look down on them for where they live, I look down on them for being extremists.

If I had said I was going to bomb the mongols out of thier yurts... would I be being a bigot then? cause.. well.. yurt is what they call the hide tents they live in.

btw.. I dont vote party lines. I would have to join a party first. I vote for who I think can do the best job. Democrat, Republican or independant. I try to vote for moderates. They get the most done.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

The Pope...oh different conversation. Shooting a Nun in the back 3 times is not a protest. It's murder. Setting off a bomb and killing 20 or 30 innocent people is not a protest. It's mass murder. Issueing a religious edict calling for the murder of another religions spiritual leader is not a protest... It's inciting violence.

You really need to get over your hate of all things American or Christian. How do you live with that much hate?

[Paper Hearts]

Perhaps, if you lived in Belfast, as I alluded to on another thread, you might realize what bigotry is worth. You see, I understand extremism full well.

Alright, I need to be off now.

[BrassFusion]

I mentioned you for that reason. I don't like you. I don't try to hide that. I in no way want you dead though. I would, believe this or not, die to save your life. I would rather live to save it.. but you know what I mean.

Same here (on the dying to save another thing), which is why I really don't understand why you hate me so much. And this isn't precisely off-topic, is it? Why hate people you don't know?

And if you'd die to save MY life, and you dislike me personally, why would you advocate the killing of people you don't even know?

[Paper Hearts]

Same here (on the dying to save another thing), which is why I really don't understand why you hate me so much. And this isn't precisely off-topic, is it? Why hate people you don't know?

And if you'd die to save MY life, and you dislike me personally, why would you advocate the killing of people you don't even know?

Here's a better point: If people think they are 'pundits', then they should at least make it their responsibility to really know current events. And next, they'll need the proper forum for such a thing.

Disclaimer: I am not a pundit, I am an amature homemaker, at best.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'm not a pundint either. I'm just a man trying to make it through life. and I agree with you about knowing current events. I do think your leaving a rather large part of the equation out though. Pundints need to know past events just as much as current. They also need to know ancient events. And the number one thing they need: Understanding of everything they know and a clear picture of how it all works. Few pundits... or every day people come to think about it, understand even a small fraction of the things they read.

The proper forum part... Everywhere is the proper forum for making the world better. Everywhere... Everywhen. Every idea, no matter how out there it is, needs to be put on the table. Bitching, moaning and hate solve nothing. REAL conversation.. you know.. where everyone involved listens to everyone else... where ideas are not thrown out because of the political, social or ethnic background of the person with the idea. It's what the world needs. The world has lost it's balance. Not because the right or left are so extreme in thier views... it's because the Middle is gone. You can't balance without a pivot point. Moderation has been weeded out by the left and right like a cancer. People care more about being right and having thier views justified than getting anything done. People care more about opposing differing views on any given subject than they do the subject it self.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Same here (on the dying to save another thing), which is why I really don't understand why you hate me so much. And this isn't precisely off-topic, is it? Why hate people you don't know?

And if you'd die to save MY life, and you dislike me personally, why would you advocate the killing of people you don't even know?

Thats a hard one to answer. At least, in this manner. I am much better at explaining my inner workings with speach than I am with writing. But to try...

First off.. I dont hate you. I just dont like you as a person. Not likeing you as a person does not invalidate your life. I don't have to like you to not want you to die.

As for advocating the deaths of people I dont know... well, I'm not really all that kean on anyone getting killed. Sometimes it has to happen though. If I was a chicken farmer I would have to kill a few Fox. I have nothing against fox.. they are pretty little animals... but I can't have them stealing my way of feeding my kids. I really have nothing against the terrorist as people, but they are going to do everything they can to kill my children, my chickens and everything else I hold dear. No matter thier reason, I can't just sit back and let that happen.

With the fox, I am not going to wait till I see them dragging off my chicken. I'm going to do it somewhere else. First... I'm going to take the fight to him. I'll find his den first, keep an eye on it and set traps. That does not always work though. He knows that ground better than I. So I know my chances of getting him there are slim. Step two. I am going to pick a neutral ground. Put something there he wants really bad. Draw him out of his den and keep him away from the chickens.

btw... this is exactly how the war on terror is being fought.

[BrassFusion]

btw... this is exactly how the war on terror is being fought.

Except of course, when the beavers see you're killing not only foxes but fox infants and the occassional mink, as collateral damage, the beavers turn into foxes.

There will ALWAYS be foxes, but the more you fight them, the more there will be in the future.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Thats not true. look at the number of fish in the sea... or the number of Gray wolves... or any other animal that is over hunted.

Beavers are like people... they dont really care what you do as long as it has no direct impact on them. They may scream a little... toss a few fits.. but mostly they are going to go about thier lives and do nothing about the fox hunt.

[Paper Hearts]

And what about tofu?

[BrassFusion]

Thats not true. look at the number of fish in the sea... or the number of Gray wolves... or any other animal that is over hunted.

Beavers are like people... they dont really care what you do as long as it has no direct impact on them. They may scream a little... toss a few fits.. but mostly they are going to go about thier lives and do nothing about the fox hunt.

Uh, you're the one who started the fractured metaphor, I was just extending it.

Extreme aggression against "terrorists" makes new "terrorists" out of people who would otherwise just go about their lives.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Hence step two of my plan. as it applys to the world now... Iraq. The nuetral ground picked for the fight. It was chosen because the existing government ws one that noone really wanted around. It was repressive and brutal on nice days. The bait used is the US Military. Yeah, it's a mess and lots of people are dieing. Mostly civilians. Thats regretable. If it helps people to sleep, they should know that most of the deaths in Iraq... are directly caused by other Iraqis and terrorists from other countrys. Not by US soldiers or US weapons.

It's not really how I would have done things. I was not asked for advise on how to fight this war. I would have done it differently. Now that we are there. We are commited. WE have to alter our plan, whatever that may be, to get the results we want. Again, nooone has asked me for my input.

[BrassFusion]

Hence step two of my plan. as it applys to the world now... Iraq. The nuetral ground picked for the fight. It was chosen because the existing government ws one that noone really wanted around. It was repressive and brutal on nice days. The bait used is the US Military. Yeah, it's a mess and lots of people are dieing. Mostly civilians. Thats regretable. If it helps people to sleep, they should know that most of the deaths in Iraq... are directly caused by other Iraqis and terrorists from other countrys. Not by US soldiers or US weapons.

It's not really how I would have done things. I was not asked for advise on how to fight this war. I would have done it differently. Now that we are there. We are commited. WE have to alter our plan, whatever that may be, to get the results we want. Again, nooone has asked me for my input.

Maybe you should run for public office.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'm thinking on it.

[torn asunder]

i still want to know how one can stop "evil-doers" when the concept of "evil" is purely and solely dependant on the one pondering/judging anothers' general "goodness" or "evilness"!? (good & evil are relative, in other words...)

[BrassFusion]

i still want to know how one can stop "evil-doers" when the concept of "evil" is purely and solely dependant on the one pondering/judging anothers' general "goodness" or "evilness"!? (good & evil are relative, in other words...)

It'll all come into focus when you learn to dehumanize all people from foreign cultures. They're not people and we can't treat them as such. They are a threat and must be dealt with accordingly.

[torn asunder]

It'll all come into focus when you learn to dehumanize all people from foreign cultures. They're not people and we can't treat them as such. They are a threat and must be dealt with accordingly.

i see...

my apologies!

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I tend to just pretend the word isn't there. I don't think of people as evil or good. There are people that want to kill me and people that don't. I don't really give a flying fuck what country they are from, what culture or ethnic background... I don't care what faith they are. Are you trying to kill me? Then I have to act first or be dead. Is there anyway I can change your mind about killing me? No? Then I'm going to kill you first... if I can.

[phee]

I tend to just pretend the word isn't there. I don't think of people as evil or good. There are people that want to kill me and people that don't. I don't really give a flying fuck what country they are from, what culture or ethnic background... I don't care what faith they are. Are you trying to kill me? Then I have to act first or be dead. Is there anyway I can change your mind about killing me? No? Then I'm going to kill you first... if I can.

Wisdom again

[BrassFusion]

I tend to just pretend the word isn't there. I don't think of people as evil or good. There are people that want to kill me and people that don't. I don't really give a flying fuck what country they are from, what culture or ethnic background... I don't care what faith they are. Are you trying to kill me? Then I have to act first or be dead. Is there anyway I can change your mind about killing me? No? Then I'm going to kill you first... if I can.

While that's smart, how can you be sure exactly who wants to kill you at any given time? All the intelligence we have about other nations comes through our government's filters... for example, we now know (hah!) that Iraq had no involvement with the attacks on 9/11. So we can't justify the war over there as self-defense... and by your logic, the Iraqis should be attacking us with everything they have right now, on our home soil... because we're looking to exterminate them. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted you.

But put your words in the mouth of any Iraqi civilian- properly translated, of course. If everyone went by your philosophy, the world would explode in a big sticky ball of paranoia and vengeance. I think that's why some religions started to advocate "turning the other cheek," because civilization was getting too big to just be governed by who can kill whom the fastest.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

You didn't understand. Iraq is our bait pile. It's our chosen ground to fight Al-Qaida. We chose Iraq because it's government of the time was not of anyone's likeing. We killed two birds with one stone. We are not exterminating anyone. In fact... we have only killed a small portion of the people that have died over there. The Iraqi insurgents and thier pals from around the middle east have killed the vast majority.

I never used the word or implied Vengance.