hypothetically speaking...

[torn asunder]

(taken from the idea, if a tree falls in the forest and noone is around, does it make a sound?)

i sit in silent meditation, deep in a forest. i watch a tree fall, and yet i don't hear it.

what could this mean? (looking for philosophical opinions, not right/wrong answers, or physics debates... what might it mean to/for you?)

i'm in a weird mood today... :whistling:

[Fierce Critter]

You forgot to take your earplugs out this morning?

[torn asunder]

not quite what i was hoping for, but thatnks for replying!! :

[Onyx]

I'm totally confused by this question. ?

I'm still pondering what you wrote before too "attachment is the root of all suffering". I've even been debating about that statement on other boards. heh heh.

[torn asunder]

actually, i'm not fully sure i understand what i was asking!? :laughing:

i think there were at least a couple ways i was thinking about this -

consider this - all matter is energy, vibrating at various speeds... this would include your body, and whatever you consider/equate to your soul. if you saw the tree fall, but didn't hear it, could that somehow mean you were "operating" at a different level, maybe on a slightly different plane of existence? (like clairvoyance / clairaudience / astral projection (out of body experiences), etc...) where the physical world might not coincide fully?

let's say the tree fell, and noone was around to hear it, and it made no noise... then, insert yourself into that scene. would that mean you were nobody?

you see a tree fall, but don't hear it - do you believe that, since you saw it fall, it actually did, even though you didn't hear it, or might you assume that, since you didn't hear it, it didn't fall, and your eyes played a trick on you? how do you percieve your reality?

i don't know what else, really - those were some of the things i was pondering, but i was curious to see anyone else's intepretations... unfortunately, i sometimes have a hard time adequately explaining myself in these matters. if it's too vague, we can just remove the thread... :whistling:

[Daniel]

Sound is a set of vibrations that sit in a certain frequency range that exist independently of people hearing them. If a tree falls, it will make a sound, unless it happens to fall in a vacuum.

Also, it is a nonsequitor to say you are in the middle of a scene that is defined by having no one present.

[torn asunder]

never mind...

this is precisely what i didn't want to get into - a debate on the physics of it, and why i didn't post my thoughts first.

"i watch a tree fall, and yet i don't hear it." - accepting that as fact, what would it mean to you? i understand the argument that it can't happen - that's why it called a "hypothetical" situation...

it's more an exercise to "think outside the box" if you will.

as it's confused everyone, and isn't very clear in the first place, perhaps i should remove it... i'll wait a day or so, to see.

[Daniel]

Hypothetical situations still find themselves ground in reality. What you are asking is an unanswerable question... it doesn't make sense, so you can't expect sense in return. That is fine, unless you expect an answer that makes sense. You want one that doesn't? I can give you that:

If you were meditating in a forest and watched a tree fall, and you couldn't hear it, this invariably means you are a pelican in mid air, and the tree is falling from heaven.

Seems what you are trying to do is similar to a zen koan. For example:

In 1287, Master Bukkaku built the Eshunan sub-temple in the place called Hell Valley. It had been the execution ground when the Minamoto shogun Yoritomo founded his government, and the people had a deep dread of the place, as it was haunted by lost spirits of the executed.

After the sub-temple had been built there, the presence of the lost spirits manifested as an appearance of blue flame coming from under the floor of the kitchen. The teacher was asked to hold a memorial service for them.

That evening he bent double over the floor, pissed on the herds of demons who were visible in the flame, and came out. The magic flame was put out, and never appeared again, and the local people called this the Pissing Memorial Service of Eshunan.

The blue flame at Eshunan was put out long ago, but right now, under my stove here, a crowd of lost spirts has appeared. What will you do as a memorial service for them, and what will you do to save them?

If as the story says, in the old days they had to use piss and shit for a mere memorial service, what would they use for the rite of salvation?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I understand what your asking, and even though im the guy , currently aruging that "knowing the nature of the universe is relevant/worthwhile even if you never get an answer" the problem with me comming up with an meaningful answer to this meditation topic is that its SO abstract, to the point where some readers sort of sub conciously ignore the possiblity that thats actually what your asking, and look for a more concrete question.

I think many of us have had that "er.. god damnit.. nevermind... you guys are doing exactly what i asked nicely for you not to do..." feeling before. : Not only in this forum but in almost all forums where the topic post is a bit obscure/unusual and hopes to stay on-topic with that unusual , difficult for some to understand point.

Hell i just continued the derailment even in the course of trying to aleviate some of the frustration due to that derailment.

Damnit i was going to try my hand at this thing, but im about to pass out, betting to lay down before i fall down.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

eh.. im back... but whati came up with was a worthless mess... maybe round 2 later. :laughing:

[The_Dark]

It's simples. Your thinking to much. Really, how much active thought happens in deep meditation? Right then... back to being mindless and at one with "the scene". Sound is vibration. However horrible the sound, it has a tune. Meditation is a way of tuning into a mindset... tuning.... your at one with with "the scene", on the same frequancy... the same tune... the same noise... one.... Can a sound hear itself?

[bav]

Short answer: somewhat Schrodinger's Cat. Did you go and examine the tree after it fell?

Long answer: I think that for the scenario you describe, that at first it is up to you as the "witness" to decide whether or not the tree fell, from a subjective point of view. If you decide that since you did see it, it must have fallen then it did indeed fall.

If on the other hand, you choose to say that your ears are more in tune with your mindstate than your eyes may have been, so then there is no way that the tree could have fallen, then the tree did not fall.

Until you move the tree from a completely subjective viewpoint into an objective view, then it is entirely up to you on whether you choose it to be in an upright position or a horizontal one. And while you're still in the subjective view, then I don't really believe that the important thing is whether or not the tree fell, but the actual moment of decision and choice and the belief in that decision.

But to answer whether or not the tree actually fell? If at that point you feel that you need an actual answer, you should shift to an objective view and go investigate the tree, then make a decision based off of more than one sensory perception.

Acutally, now that I'm thinking about it, I think this is pretty much as close as I can get to an explantion about my views on God and a lot of the other imponderables.

So, out of curiosity, Torn....which is more important to you? The subjective view for placement of belief or the objective view for an answer?

[Jarodaka]

(taken from the idea, if a tree falls in the forest and noone is around, does it make a sound?)

i sit in silent meditation, deep in a forest. i watch a tree fall, and yet i don't hear it.

what could this mean? (looking for philosophical opinions, not right/wrong answers, or physics debates... what might it mean to/for you?)

i'm in a weird mood today... :whistling:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How deeply in meditation? How big is the tree? How far away is it? Is there absolutely no other sound in the area (I would find that hard to believe)? How deep is 'deep in the forest'? Did I cut down the tree? Did somebody else? Did the tree fall on its own accord? Not nearly enough context to answer this question.

[torn asunder]

:ermm: eh, nevermind... :ermm:

[Vater Araignee]

(taken from the idea, if a tree falls in the forest and noone is around, does it make a sound?)

i sit in silent meditation, deep in a forest. i watch a tree fall, and yet i don't hear it.

what could this mean? (looking for philosophical opinions, not right/wrong answers, or physics debates... what might it mean to/for you?)

i'm in a weird mood today... :whistling:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You thought the tree was going to hit you and you suffered fear reflex "Tunnel vision, lack of motor control, and last but not least audio shutdown"

thread resurrector strikes again!!!

[Homicidalheathen]

Sound is a set of vibrations that sit in a certain frequency range that exist independently of people hearing them.  If a tree falls, it will make a sound, unless it happens to fall in a vacuum.

Also, it is a nonsequitor to say you are in the middle of a scene that is defined by having no one present.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yah, what he said.

[bean]

(taken from the idea, if a tree falls in the forest and noone is around, does it make a sound?)

i sit in silent meditation, deep in a forest. i watch a tree fall, and yet i don't hear it.

what could this mean? (looking for philosophical opinions, not right/wrong answers, or physics debates... what might it mean to/for you?)

i'm in a weird mood today... :whistling:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I have two different answers on this.

1. To me, it would mean that I had reached a higher plane of existence, where sound had no purpose. This plane would be one where you relied on sight only, where sight is truth, therefore nothing else is necessary. You see the tree fall, so you know that the tree has fallen, because you saw it happen. Hearing it fall would have no purpose.

2. In my quest to attain a higher plane (nothingness), all senses are being removed because they are unnecessary, the last one being sight. Trees symbolize strength, so when I see the tree fall, this signifies that the last of my senses are gone; I had the strength to complete my journey; and I have attained the highest plane - nothingness.

Ok, I either sound like a complete moron, or I confused everyone...sorry. :fear

[Draco1958]

Ok, I have two different answers on this.

1.  To me, it would mean that I had reached a higher plane of existence, where sound had no purpose.  This plane would be one where you relied on sight only, where sight is truth, therefore nothing else is necessary.  You see the tree fall, so you know that the tree has fallen, because you saw it happen.  Hearing it fall would have no purpose.

2.  In my quest to attain a higher plane (nothingness), all senses are being removed because they are unnecessary, the last one being sight.  Trees symbolize strength, so when I see the tree fall, this signifies that the last of my senses are gone; I had the strength to complete my journey; and I have attained the highest plane - nothingness.

Ok, I either sound like a complete moron, or I confused everyone...sorry.  :fear

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I'm not really confused. This does make sense to me...Scary thought.

And you are not a moron.

I would consider this....that you became so intuned to nature that you became part of it. You became part of the forest, part of the sounds of the forest so that it's not that you didn't hear it, it's that you were part of the sound itself. Your mind flowed with the tree and the sound and in so doing, you may not here the sound. Question is that in becoming so close to it, did you feel anything?

[Mikielikesit]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah................seriously

[Homicidalheathen]

Ok I have one........If a tree falls ontop of me but I am asleep and do not realize it....will I not die?

Maybe I will just get squished and then get a tire pump and pump myself up like a cartoon......

Or better yet......If I yell at the top of my lungs out on my front porch but none of my neighbors can see me....do you think this will stop them from wanting to slice my larynx?

[phee]

If a tree falls on a deaf guy alone in the woods... does his scream make a sound?