Religious Discrimination At Work?

[Zenji]

Scenario:

Ok, I started working at this place last December. Ever since I've been there people have posted Religious (Christian) poems and scriptures on all the public bulletin areas as well as in private cubicles in their offices.

Now, around april I moved from being a floor supervisor to being the scheduling supervisor, basically in charge of about 15 fork lift drivers and some other random people.

So, the office I moved into has roughly6 work stations. 3 PC's shared by people making product labels and 3 PC's shared between the Schedulers on all three shifts.

On the cubicle to my left, there is a Christian lady who adorns her cubicle with religious scripture, poetry and the likes. Sharing my cubicle is a Catholic guy who has a small crucifix mounted on the wall. Not to mention the fact that as we all shared an intranet e-mail system, folks would copy religious e-mails to everyone.

So, what started off as a joke, turned into some serious issues between me and management. I had been complaining about the religious crap at work, so I decided to post a copy of the 11 Laws of Satanism (by Anton). Mind you there is no profanity in the 11 Laws, and nothing to suggest any kind of immoral behaviour, quite the opposite.

I posted this on my cubicle (didn't send it over e-mail or anything). Basically only those who sat at my cubicle (2 other supervisors on other shifts) and any drivers who worked for me could actually see and read the paper.

A few days after I put it up, I came in one night to find that someone had turned the paper around (so you couldn't read it). I fixed it and left it there. The very next night I came in and the paper was gone. At first I didn't say anything but it was well noted.

Later that night my manager (who never worked on my shift) came in to talk to me. He had asked me what the paper was about and I just explained it was nothing different than what others had posted. He then explained to me that he felt religion had no place in the workplace and instructed me to refrain from putting religious stuff up. I agreed but lodged a bitching campaign for the next few days. As it sat, he had personally removed my stuff and had thrown in away without asking or even telling me until after the fact. On top of this, he had not asked the others to remove their religious stuff.

So after about a week of bitching, it finally got around to management and they told everyone in the office that they had to take their stuff down (they were extremely upset, especially the Catholics.) It was explained that people could wear religious adornments, (jewelry, clothing) but could not hang anything up on the walls.

Of course now everyone was mad at me.

Then, about a week after all this happened, as I was preparing an official complaint for the HR department, I found out that the HR director is the one who had seen my paper, taken offense and told my boss to remove it. So my complaint was lost of course. Then, only a few weeks after all this happened, the HR director put a glass candle with a depiction of Jesus on it in her window which faces the parking lot. She even "lit" the candle and left it burning all night during our shift.

I pretty much let everything die down after bitching for a few weeks. I thought about going to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and filing a formal complaint but I can't think of what I'd get out of it other than letting my job know they're a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this?

[phee]

Scenario:

Ok, I started working at this place last December. Ever since I've been there people have posted Religious (Christian) poems and scriptures on all the public bulletin areas as well as in private cubicles in their offices.

Now, around april I moved from being a floor supervisor to being the scheduling supervisor, basically in charge of about 15 fork lift drivers and some other random people.

So, the office I moved into has roughly6 work stations. 3 PC's shared by people making product labels and 3 PC's shared between the Schedulers on all three shifts.

On the cubicle to my left, there is a Christian lady who adorns her cubicle with religious scripture, poetry and the likes. Sharing my cubicle is a Catholic guy who has a small crucifix mounted on the wall. Not to mention the fact that as we all shared an intranet e-mail system, folks would copy religious e-mails to everyone.

So, what started off as a joke, turned into some serious issues between me and management. I had been complaining about the religious crap at work, so I decided to post a copy of the 11 Laws of Satanism (by Anton). Mind you there is no profanity in the 11 Laws, and nothing to suggest any kind of immoral behaviour, quite the opposite.

I posted this on my cubicle (didn't send it over e-mail or anything). Basically only those who sat at my cubicle (2 other supervisors on other shifts) and any drivers who worked for me could actually see and read the paper.

A few days after I put it up, I came in one night to find that someone had turned the paper around (so you couldn't read it). I fixed it and left it there. The very next night I came in and the paper was gone. At first I didn't say anything but it was well noted.

Later that night my manager (who never worked on my shift) came in to talk to me. He had asked me what the paper was about and I just explained it was nothing different than what others had posted. He then explained to me that he felt religion had no place in the workplace and instructed me to refrain from putting religious stuff up. I agreed but lodged a bitching campaign for the next few days. As it sat, he had personally removed my stuff and had thrown in away without asking or even telling me until after the fact. On top of this, he had not asked the others to remove their religious stuff.

So after about a week of bitching, it finally got around to management and they told everyone in the office that they had to take their stuff down (they were extremely upset, especially the Catholics.) It was explained that people could wear religious adornments, (jewelry, clothing) but could not hang anything up on the walls.

Of course now everyone was mad at me.

Then, about a week after all this happened, as I was preparing an official complaint for the HR department, I found out that the HR director is the one who had seen my paper, taken offense and told my boss to remove it. So my complaint was lost of course. Then, only a few weeks after all this happened, the HR director put a glass candle with a depiction of Jesus on it in her window which faces the parking lot. She even "lit" the candle and left it burning all night during our shift.

I pretty much let everything die down after bitching for a few weeks. I thought about going to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and filing a formal complaint but I can't think of what I'd get out of it other than letting my job know they're a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this?

Interesting and yes I have.

[Hellion]

Yeah no one ever talks about religious stuff around the shop,basicaly its not allowed since it can start alot of BS,also political crap is kept out of the shop area too.

I hope you win your argument,good luck

[Head Wreck]

i fortunately have had none in work. but my grandpearents however....

[BrassFusion]

They're just insecure because maybe they don't have the personal relationship with Jesus that Jerry Falwell does and they're trying to overcompensate for it. If they were decent human beings (regardless of faith), they would be comfortable with and supportive of you practicing your own religion.

[Msterbeau]

I've just moved into the bible belt... I'm surprised that I don't see more religious stuff on the walls. Then again... It's a Japanese company. I have yet to experience anything that felt that "hostile" to me. If I ever encountered it I'm pretty sure I'd make whatever noise it took to get it resolved to my satisfaction. Or I'd leave. I really don't care what people put up in their cubes, but as soon as I'm not allowed to do the same... Completely different ballgame.

Did you file a complaint above the HR directors head?

[Zenji]

See, at first I was just mad cuz they took my stuff without asking me. Then when I realized they didn't make anyone else remove their stuff, I got more mad. Then when they *did* make everyone else remove their stuff, I went to another level of mad. When it all ended with the HR director (who still by the way, months later still has that damn candle in her window) decided that it was ok for *her* to practice...

My thing is simple, I went to the website for the EEOC and it states there pretty clearly that an employer cannot legally forbid you from religious observation as long as it doesn't present tangible harm to the work area or employees.

The other part (I forgot to mention) is that I work in a Union shop, however I, (as well as the others who worked in the office for me) are all non-union employees. Not once were any of the Union employees told they could not observe their religions. The ban on religious observances in the office was directed *only* to non-union employees.

[Steven]

You have a legitimete argument.

However, here's what i think based on how you presented your scenario...

a) You indicate that you were originally (pre satanic post) miffed at the overt religiosity of the workplace via various forms of Judeo Christian symbolism and written tenants posted in cubilces and such.

Fair Enough.

However - I noticed that you did not state that you were being preached to, pressured to conform, ridiculed for not participating, ostracized, or the like. It did not sound like a hostile environment as Mark eloquently introduced. It simply sounds like you worked in a company that had christian employees who had a history of being able to express themselves in their domain in a pretty harmlesss fashion and I'm making the assumption that Christian Zelaouts irritate you. Why that bothers you I do not understand since no one was preaching at you, but again - fair enough - you were bugged.

b) so you posted some beleifs of your own.

Here's my problem with what you did:

It seems from your post - that your particular actions were rooted in stirring up some controversy - or at least - in particular - creating an offense that you could later use as an argument of your own. Since no one was preachign to you or at you - then I take it that what they posted and shared via email was a form of comfort to them as an existing, albeit "unofficial" subculture within the workplace.

But I dont get that same feel from you in regard to your posting your stuff. I dont know yet that anybody KNEW they were offending you. But you definately knew you'd be offending them, that's why you did it. I find that hard to respect - not when you could have first had a discussion among your peers, and then brought it to HR if you were truly under duress. So based on what you wrote - you lose some credibility with me, because you chose to make a point by manipulating the outcome and setting up a scenario that would paint you as one being persecuted - and I dont beleive that you really were.

c) now your the bad guy in an office with a double standard....sort of.

I dont really beleive that you are fighting for the right to beleive and practice your beleifs in a scenario like this one. I think your basically surrounded by Xtians and are picking a fight. And your right - your HR person is wrong to set his or her own rules if there is a company standard. But I dont think you've accomplished much for Satanism, I doubt the workplace culture has improved, and in the end you've probably just alienated some peeps.

If you had somethign to prove to these zealouts - that your own beleifs retain admirable merit and that Satanists are swell folk, do you think you've got an audience now?

here's to fighting the good fight,

Steven

[Zenji]

Haha, finally some good debate:

A) I wasn't miffed as much as just irritated. You're right, I wasn't "preached to" per se, nor did I say I was. I did let everyone know however that I was not a Christian because everyone asked me. Then they continue to use the classic "have a blessed day" line just to erk me.

Christian Zealots don't irritate me. I can admire people who truly believe in something and aren't afraid of letting others know. What I don't like is folks that don't respect the fact that not everyone thinks the way they do and so act against those others to the detriment of their own.

B) I'm not a Satanist. They weren't "beliefs of my own" though some of them make sense. I chose Satanism specifically yes to counter the ultrachristian atmosphere, and yes I did it on purpose to stir up conflict. I don't deny that. My point was to observe and gauge the reactions of those around me. Not *one* person stated to me in any way, shape or form that they were offended by what I posted, so it works both ways. The best way to win an argument is to set up the scenario so that it can be won. However, had management never taken my stuff without permission or banned all religious items from the office, my conflict would not have existed. Regardless of the set-up , proposed and expected outcome, it was still completely within the boundaries of those around me to participate.

What I question is the method in which they chose to deal with the situation. Had I decided to throw away someone else's religious papers or crucifixes without their permission, do you think it would go unnoticed? Not only did they chose to react by violating my basic rights and disrespecting me, but they then chose to cover themselves by making it a work rule, but only after I complained.

C) I was the bad guy for condemning the rest of the workers into having to give up their basic rights also, but then I became the religious hero for standing up for the right to religious freedom. It doesn't matter what religion was being practiced. Your'e right, I wasn't fighting to worship my own religion because that's inconsequential. I was fighting the stereotype that condemned religious diversity. In all the years the majority of the workplace accepted the christian doctrine, then one simple Satanic reading got all religion banned. Do you think there would have been the same reaction had I posted some text from Islamic writings? I have an Ohm tattooed on my hand, some educated few may think I practice Hinduism. Had I posted some text from that belief system would it have had the same effect?

I think there are accepted religions allowed in some work places and I was able to identify one that was not allowed at my workplace. Mind you I didn't preach to anyone, I didn't ask anyone to read what it said, I didn't quote it daily or refer to it as my religion in any way shape or form, I simply posted it at my cubicle. The simple fact was that I *was* picking a fight, that doesn't necessarily make me wrong for what I did. It's like I wore a Red Hat at the Crip party. Now, do the Bloods ignore me and let me leave, or do they start shooting taking out me and a bunch of their own guys too? I mean, there are many different ways of dealing with any situation. I was fully expecting a reaction, just found the tactics they used to be illegal and discriminating.

Had I TRULY been pissed off I would have filed a suit against them. What got me though was the fact that the true zealots *still* displayed their stuff and management didn't say anything. I was tempted to display mine again to further ripple the water but decided against it. It's definitely not worth losing my job over, though I'm certain had I lost my job for something like that there would be some major conflict.

My point in this post wasn't to make myself necessarily look like the wounded feeb. My point was to describe the scenario that I *orchestrated* if you'd prefer and to see if anyone else had experienced anything similar in regards to the reativity of hypocritical employers.

What I proved was not to the zealots because they dont' care, they do what they want anyway, as do I. I was able to latch the undevout masses onto my martyrdom (which really wasn't the point f the excersise but sufficed nonetheless.) Everyone at work that knows me knows I'm not Christian but I'm not a Satanist either. My goal was not to emphasize Satanism or to prove its worth, but to view the events with a humanist approach that the majority of folks involved could care less what I posted or what I believed, but the select few chose for everyone else and forced them into the same scenario. And again, those attacked were all non-union because the Union workers would have all filed greivances.

Now, I'm glad that you've taken the time to question the motives behind the scenario I described, though the motives were not my reason for telling the story. I was telling the story to see if anyone else had similar events happen to them, not to gain sympathy for my cause (however distorted and vile it may be considered).

[Steven]

right.

you set up a backlash and called it persecution.

you took up a fight in principle that was/is easily misunderstood, such as say...your right to be a Satanist in teh workplace, which was not is not what your even communicatiing, yet your actions led people to beleive that you were.

You chose a shock method as opposed to a communal method of influence. You call it research, I call it anger and self satisfaction. What you proved is simply that we can be assholes to one another for the sake of our "beleifs". If you wanted to truly teach somebody somethign then you should have gotten to know them, let them see the 'you' behind yoru agenda, and learned to see them as well. What you did - wont really prove anything, wont really last long, wont really do much besides create and add to the growing tension in the MI workplace.

Remember you titeld theis thread as "religeous persecution" and asked if it has happened to anybody at work.....but I still dont think your thread title includes you and your situation. Your title probably should have been

"I should those non-union idiot zealouts a thing or two".

.

[Zenji]

Actually it's entitled "Religious Discrimination at work?" Notice the question mark?

Also, I specifically stated in my original post that it started out as a joke but went to another level.

Now, regardless of my antagonistic approach or my personal vindictiveness against my co-workers Religious rhetoric (which is something that is impossible to relay over a message board like this), I'd like to think that having not experienced such a situation it would be near impossible to appreciate.

Hence the reason I asked if anyone had experienced anything similar. Again, my motive in the post was to find similar situations, not to Dr. Phil my experience. I didn't post this to rally your satisfaction in my methods or experiences, only to share mine and find others who may have experienced what they thought may have been discrimination.

I do however find it flattering that you've chosen to Dr. Phil me and discredit my experience instead of share a similar story or experience that would make me think you actually have something valuable to add to the discussion. I've often found here on DGn that there are always some folks who can't take a discussion for what it is and instead choose to question the motivations for the threads instead of adding value to the topic itself.

Now would it be fair to say that by posting this thread I've "set up a backlash and called it persecution"?

[Homicidalheathen]

I am pagan and have been fired for being found out and it was by accident. Sorry, but you have to conform to a point.....I would NEVER risk a job this way.....even if I thought it was the right thing to do.

Tis all about the money during your 9-5.

Sucks but thats life.

[Steven]

I decided to edit everything I just wrote in response to you and the Dr. Phili'sm charge.

And simply say: have at it kid. You seem to have everything perfectly under control....

[Onyx]

Well, I've read it all carefully and it seems to me a clear cut case of religious discrimination.

Personally I don't think religion or politics or anything controversial belongs in the workplace at all. I'm there to work and that's it.

I was never really that big on socializing with people at work either, though it was really expected most places. I hated that part of being in an office.

Really none of it belongs, however If they are going to allow one they should be allowing all.

[BrassFusion]

Well, I've read it all carefully and it seems to me a clear cut case of religious discrimination.

Personally I don't think religion or politics or anything controversial belongs in the workplace at all. I'm there to work and that's it.

I was never really that big on socializing with people at work either, though it was really expected most places. I hated that part of being in an office.

Really none of it belongs, however If they are going to allow one they should be allowing all.

It's kinda hard to get away from it in some places. Like, if you're working retail, and you greet people with the phrase "Happy Holidays" and they snittily correct you by saying "Merry Christmas." That behavior just really disgusts me.

But that's more often customers than coworkers, thank goodness.

[AstralCrux]

Yay for balance! If they allow one religious reference they have to allow them all.

What makes people feel they need to share their beliefs moreso now? We saw what happened with the Muhammed cartoons, and the mass chaos that ensued.

In any case the only industry that really can get away with the religious concept is generally retail, but we all know that's just to make a specific religious group buy more product at specfic times of the year. Although, I have a tree in the lobby at the hotel, we aren't getting force fed holiday music and the decorations are pretty general, mostly present boxes. I really don't think I'll have to worry much here, the boss is Jewish and the owner is Christian- so there's a bit of balance.

[Zenji]

I've worked at other places here in Michigan with more diverse Religious freedom.

Take Technicolor. I worked there for two years. Technicolor has about a 75% Muslim (25% Arabic, 50% Benali) workforce with strong influences also in Hinduism, Sikhism, and Christianity.

Technicolor has Muslim "prayer" areas sectioned off where they can pray, learn and do their thing. They even have "teachers" or "preachers" who read from their books and keep folks in the faith. And in all honesty, the Muslims were some of the best workers at the job. They have very strict rules about doing your best all the time while at work. They even had a system of policing their own to make sure everyone staid busy and did things right. To me, this was a clear indication that Religious doctrine was a powerful motivator for the workforce.

Also, one of the main "teachers" would engage in peaceful, thoughtful and respectful discussion about not only his beliefs (when asked direct questions) but also in my own beliefs which surely did not match his. I found him to be highly logical and thoughtful in his interpretations of my beliefs and he seemed extremely interested in reading my book and my other literature on belief.

In exchange I respectfully allowed various forms of religious expression by my workers (I was a superviso there too), especially conerning holidays and other customs. During Ramadan I'd allow them to eat on the line at soon as the sun went down, etc.

At no time was I ever preached to, threatened or otherwise disrespected by ANY of them.

I'd like to think that considering my experiences with religion in the workplace that all due consideration had been taken at my new job and similar respect could have been shared by what was now a majority Christian company.

I would also have to add that my current company is Minority Owned and Operated and that the owner ( a devout Catholic of Latin decent) visits the plant often. I would think a cmpany as diverse as the one I work for would also be so diverse with their religious standards.

Now, as for the argument that Religion should not be allowed in the workplace... I have issues. Truly devout employees can often (not always I imagine but it has been my experience) find ways to improve their work performance or professionalism by dedication to their religious system. Muslims are Muslim 100% of the time, not just when they're not at work. It's hard for me to tell someone they can't be Muslim at work or can't even say they're Muslim because it has no place on the job.

I've got employees that work for me now that are fairly devout Christians. These are women so devout they don't wear pants, only dresses and stuff like that. These are folks that when asked a question reply, "I won't lie, I haven't done what I'm supposed to do, God is watching" or something stupid like that. I haven't run into a single situation that would make me think that various religions could not survive mutual respect in my place of work (until I came across the incident with the Satanism).

When people see me, with a pentacle and yin-yang on my forearm and an Ohm on my back hand, they take a few minutes to stop and ask me what it's all about and I have no problems explaining. I don't think it interferes with my job and I've never seen it affect another employee so that their jobs could not be done or their own religions threatened.

[Steven]

Also, one of the main "teachers" would engage in peaceful, thoughtful and respectful discussion about not only his beliefs (when asked direct questions) but also in my own beliefs which surely did not match his. I found him to be highly logical and thoughtful in his interpretations of my beliefs and he seemed extremely interested in reading my book and my other literature on belief.

In exchange I respectfully allowed various forms of religious expression by my workers (I was a superviso there too), especially conerning holidays and other customs. During Ramadan I'd allow them to eat on the line at soon as the sun went down, etc.

would have been pretty cool had you done the same thing with your cubicle persecuters.

[Steven]

It's kinda hard to get away from it in some places. Like, if you're working retail, and you greet people with the phrase "Happy Holidays" and they snittily correct you by saying "Merry Christmas." That behavior just really disgusts me.

But that's more often customers than coworkers, thank goodness.

Babe, maybe they just really love their Christmas and dont want to reduce it.

Have patience with them, "for they know not what they do..."

[BrassFusion]

Babe, maybe they just really love their Christmas and dont want to reduce it.

Have patience with them, "for they know not what they do..."

They don't want to "reduce" their holiday season to something more inclusive, you mean. That's exactly what disgusts me! It's the Christmas season, which also happens to be the holiday season- it's not "Christian Appreciation Month."

And to clear this up, I have no problems with someone cheerily wishing me a Merry Christmas (not that I'll ever respond in kind- that would be dishonest). I love that, even. It's those that sneer when they say it that piss me off. Hypocritical fucks.

[AstralCrux]

The thing is.... working retail... you really need to refer to the season as the "holiday season" because the PC police are watching *sorry guys it's not really santa*. That and you really don't want to offend shoppers, I used to get pretty offended back when I was being tormented by large groups of Christians. Now, it really doesn't bother me what you call the season.

[Steven]

They don't want to "reduce" their holiday season to something more inclusive, you mean. That's exactly what disgusts me! It's the Christmas season, which also happens to be the holiday season- it's not "Christian Appreciation Month."

And to clear this up, I have no problems with someone cheerily wishing me a Merry Christmas (not that I'll ever respond in kind- that would be dishonest). I love that, even. It's those that sneer when they say it that piss me off. Hypocritical fucks.

then you need to think up and practice a nice little question for them when they do that.

somethign that say's "this why I dont dig you , because your pompous"

I've no problem with confronting Xtians who are being dicks.

Some of them are simply repsonding to what THEY feel is a threat, that what has been traditionally spoken nd practiced forever is now being re-classified into the PC world. Still, we could use a little humbling.

[Steven]

It's the Christmas season, which also happens to be the holiday season- it's not "Christian Appreciation Month."

yes it is.

appreciate me Beeyotch

[BrassFusion]

yes it is.

appreciate me Beeyotch

[snarky comment censored for WAY inappropriateness, seeing as Steven's married and all. Yow.]

[Steven]

[snarky comment censored for WAY inappropriateness, seeing as Steven's married and all. Yow.]