Obama To Run For President

[torn asunder]

a vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.

*dingdingding* we have a winner!!

[BrassFusion]

the reason they can't get elected is for exactly this reason... because people think that voting for a third party is throwing away their vote. why do people feel the need to "vote for the lesser evil" or to "vote for the winner" rather than voting their beliefs & conscience?

i understand what you're saying, but personally, i'm taking a stand & not voting for people i think completely suck. i will vote third party (any third party) until such time as they win enough votes to get federal campaign financing, so they can actually have a chance at getting their message out to the people. this two-party-only system (due to campaign finance regulations, etc) is total bullshit & i refuse to support it. so the way i look at it, if anyone votes for a democrat or republican solely for the reasons i listed above ("vote for the lesser evil" or to "vote for the winner") then *you're* the ones throwing away your vote...

But it's NOT just reasons of finance. As long as people with my mindset exist in the numbers we do, a third party CANNOT win. h. ross perot was evidence of that.

Unless we implement instant runoff voting...

we'd still have problems of fed. campaign financing, of course. the way i see it, either ALL parties should be federally financed or NO parties should. for a party that can't get major contributions from special interest groups, federal funding probably isn't going to do them much good anyway. it'd be a drop in the bucket.

[BrassFusion]

a vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.

*dingdingding* we have a winner!!

i LIKE obama so far, and i liked kerry. i don't see either of them as evil, and I certainly don't prefer nader. that quote in the advocate from obama's autobiography actually kind of clinched it for me.

[Spooky Girl]

i LIKE obama so far, and i liked kerry. i don't see either of them as evil, and I certainly don't prefer nader. that quote in the advocate from obama's autobiography actually kind of clinched it for me.

that's fine as long as you understand that Obama's position on gay marriage is almost exactly the same as Geore Bush's position. Saying you may be wrong about something (which implies he thinks he is right but there is a possible he could be incorrect) does not change your view. That is like saying I believe in the death penalty so I'll put it into law, maybe I'll change my mind later after these people have been executed. Just so you know, Obama is also a strict Christian and thinks Democrats should embrace Christianity more.

[BrassFusion]

that's fine as long as you understand that Obama's position on gay marriage is almost exactly the same as Geore Bush's position. Saying you may be wrong about something (which implies he thinks he is right but there is a possible he could be incorrect) does not change your view. That is like saying I believe in the death penalty so I'll put it into law, maybe I'll change my mind later after these people have been executed. Just so you know, Obama is also a strict Christian and thinks Democrats should embrace Christianity more.

their positions don't appear to be as similar as you say they are. as for the death penalty correlation, denying someone's right to "marriage" but allowing the right to "civil union" isn't as permanent as an execution.

and hell... you know half they stuff they say is just part of an effort to get elected. i bet many "christian" candidates aren't christian at all.

i can accept that any candidate who could win has to lie, and so far, i prefer the lies he's choosing to make. i prefer the voter base he's trying to reach.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BF...

If you want to change the Electorial system.. do it. We do infact have a process for it.

Even if you do, you wont get anyone that is not a Democrat or a Republican elected. The main reason is you dont seem to understand the system at all. Campaign Finaice laws do not say who gets Federal money. It's Federal law dictating how moneys can be raised and who a canidate is allowed to accept money from and how they are allowed to spend it.

Change the electorial system all you want. You still wont get a 3rd party canidate elected. They will never have enough money to put thier name on the tip of everyone's tongue.

Changing the electorial system will prevent someone loosing the popular vote by still getting to be president. It will not change who can or can not get thier message out to the prople effectively.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Oh and um.. the really big problem that needs to be fixed... "As long as people with my mindset exist in the numbers we do" exactly the biggest problem we face.

[BrassFusion]

mark, you just said yourself that third party candidates can't get elected! by that logic, any vote for third party is a vote wasted which is exactly what i said!!

Campaign Finaice laws do not say who gets Federal money. It's Federal law dictating how moneys can be raised and who a canidate is allowed to accept money from and how they are allowed to spend it.

so how does this fact by itself make it impossible for ralph nader to win an election?

[machine]

i LIKE obama so far, and i liked kerry. i don't see either of them as evil, and I certainly don't prefer nader. that quote in the advocate from obama's autobiography actually kind of clinched it for me.

Kerry is a liar just like any politician. One of the worst of his kind. Lieing about the actions of those you served with, and lieing about where you were, and claiming you saw things you didn't just to get some people behind you is just terrible, sick, and sad.

John Kerry is a liar.

[Scary Guy]

Kerry is a liar just like any politician. One of the worst of his kind. Lieing about the actions of those you served with, and lieing about where you were, and claiming you saw things you didn't just to get some people behind you is just terrible, sick, and sad.

John Kerry is a liar.

Even if he is a liar what does that matter? Bush fixed an election, you tell me what is worse.

The lesser of two evils might still be evil, but it's still a lesser evil and there is no (viable) third option.

[Spooky Girl]

Even if he is a liar what does that matter? Bush fixed an election, you tell me what is worse.

The lesser of two evils might still be evil, but it's still a lesser evil and there is no (viable) third option.

Bush didn't "fix" any elections.

[Msterbeau]

Bush didn't "fix" any elections.

You think not? The evidence, to me, says otherwise. It's pretty convenient the the state that was projected to be for Gore all of a sudden became a Bush win. Gee... his brother is the governor. Gee.. the woman responsible for the elections was also the the chairperson for the Bush election in the state. Etc, etc... Bush didn't need to fix the election. As always, his friends did it for him.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BF... Because he cant get the "face" time that he needs to win, thats why. Many people know the name Nader... but they have no idea who he is or what he stands for. Under the current system Nader can't get the cash needed to run an effective campaign. He has never gotten enough votes for the electorial system to be a problem for him. The laws and rules make it damn near inpossilbe for anyone to get the moeny they need because they specifically name the Republican and Democratic partys. If you are not a member of one of those partys, you can't get most of the moneys that you could if you were.

[the eternal]

Christopher Dodd (who has NO chance at getting elected) is the only one speaking out against this BS argument that money is free speech.

I f we could get the Supreme Court to overturn that ruling, there's our starting point.

We decide money is not speech.

Speech is speech, and then NOT just make elections publicly financed, but put a small cap on it.

Take away their power of putting up dumbass 30 sec soundbites on the air that say nothing.

Make them go around the country and give rousing whistlestop speeched like Harry Truman, so we actually know what these people stand for.

It's sad that in this day and age, GOP or Dem, most of the people voting for a candidate has no clue what their platform is.

[Scary Guy]

Bush didn't "fix" any elections.

Right, sure, next you'll be telling me we didn't do 9/11. The only reason I'm still not certain is I really don't want to believe we did that to our own people. But the evidence is there and it is quite possible.

And when the next presidential election comes up Jeb will be right there to carry on the Bush family legacy.

I firmly believe he fixed both of them, if not him then other people who have vested interests in him.

[BrassFusion]

mark: then we need to make the finance rules the same for every party with a candidate (they should be anyway), AND use instant runoff voting. do you have an alternative solution to the problem?

eternal: that could work. they could have an official website, and televise some debates. i'd be all over that shit.

[Vampyro]

whoo... glad i've been staying off this thread... the bullshit is being flung at an abnormally retarted rate here! I think i'll just go hide here...

[BrassFusion]

uh, now you're on it. welcome. do you have anything to contribute?

[machine]

Right, sure, next you'll be telling me we didn't do 9/11. The only reason I'm still not certain is I really don't want to believe we did that to our own people. But the evidence is there and it is quite possible.

And when the next presidential election comes up Jeb will be right there to carry on the Bush family legacy.

I firmly believe he fixed both of them, if not him then other people who have vested interests in him.

If you don't put your hat back on, CARNIVORE might read this.

It is sick to even say what you said about September 11th.

If there was ANYTHING that POSSIBLY might make any sense when talking about a conspiracy is that someone let it happen. But no one on our side had a hand in this.

Conspiracy Theorists are propaganda artists.

[Scary Guy]

If you don't put your hat back on, CARNIVORE might read this.

It is sick to even say what you said about September 11th.

If there was ANYTHING that POSSIBLY might make any sense when talking about a conspiracy is that someone let it happen. But no one on our side had a hand in this.

Conspiracy Theorists are propaganda artists.

Read my previous posts on the subject.

Also IMO only crackpots wouldn't question authority. Too many things add up for it to be a coincidence.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Erin...

Let me just start off with a heart felt...DUH. What the hell do you think my point was? Ofcourse it needs to change. But that, will take work, from people like you, me, marc, eternal and everyone else who actually cares enough to talk about "this bullshit". It will take some time and a few elections and a really really large amount of effort. See, those laws and rules that govern campaign finaice... Congress makes those rules. So, we have two routes we can take. I think we should take both.

Route A.

The Supreme Court. None of these laws have ever been brought before the Supreme court to see if they pass consitutional muster. They have never been challenged, so the Courts have no reason to rule on them. This route requires laywers and legal research teams. We find a flaw and press forward with a hearing. At the same time, we need to draft FAIR laws for campaign finaince to replace the exisiting ones and get someone in Congress sponser it. McCain would be all for it. WE will also need to drum up media coverage... let the people get real worked up about it. That puts pressure on the people in Congress to adopt the new laws or else loose voters... which brings up

Route B.

We need to Vote. Using our heads. Know the issues. Vote for the BEST canidate, not the lesser of two evils. If you don't know how someone stands on the issues that is running... look it up. Get more Third party people in Congress. Encourge everyone you kn ow to do the same thing.

Above all else.

Stop thinking in shades of Red and Blue.

We are all, Americans, lets start acting like it.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BTW

Conspiracy Theorists make me feel sane.

[BrassFusion]

Mark, WHY WHY WHY do you have to find a way to disagree with me whenever we agree? STOPPIT!!!!!!!

and as for conspiracy theorists... would you rather everyone was just blind deaf mute sheep who believed everything they were told? we NEED conspiracy theorists (remember watergate? you should; you were alive for it, i wasn't). they're an integral part of the world and thank god we live in a country that doesn't have them executed.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I never disagreed with you. I explained my view.. and explained it again using smaller words... finally, I used the smallest words I could... and pretended I was speaking to my 4 year old. At that point, you seem to have finally gotten my point.

Maybe you should stop aurgueing every point brought up by anyone that is not you and actually listen the first time. It would save us all a lot of time and grief if you could just see it in your heart to not respond to everything with your bitch hat on.

[BrassFusion]

I never disagreed with you. I explained my view.. and explained it again using smaller words... finally, I used the smallest words I could... and pretended I was speaking to my 4 year old. At that point, you seem to have finally gotten my point.

Maybe you should stop aurgueing every point brought up by anyone that is not you and actually listen the first time. It would save us all a lot of time and grief if you could just see it in your heart to not respond to everything with your bitch hat on.

YOU'RE STILL DOING IT!