The Terry Shiavo case

[Fierce Critter]

What do you think about it and all the political brouhaha going on in relation?

I'm generally in favor of whatever the person themself wishes be done. But in this case, there doesn't seem to be a clear answer on that.

[Daniel]

What do you think about it and all the political brouhaha going on in relation?

I'm generally in favor of whatever the person themself wishes be done. But in this case, there doesn't seem to be a clear answer on that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the courts have roundly ruled that it was Terri's wish to be taken off of life support. I'm positively disgusted by this whole case. I'll post here what I posted in my Livejournal. It is something I found on another message board:

I'm absolutely astounded by the misinformation that is out there. Terri collapsed, due to cardiac arrest. 3 years after her collapse her husband won a malpractice suit with the award being a grand total of $1 million dollars. $700,000 for Terri and $300,000 for the husband. The orginial award was a lot greater, but it was reduced because it was found that Terri was 70% responsible for her own condition. The collapse happened in 1990. In 1998 her husband, after having agressive treatment pursued for Terri for YEARS with no improvement, petitioned the court to remove Terri's feeding tube. Dr.'s had diagnosed her with PVS. The Schindler family disagreed with the husband, so as per the law, the husband as next of kin and guardian of Terri petitioned the court to have a trial to determine Terri's wishes. The trial found that Terri would not want to be kept alive in this manner. Terri's parents testified in court, and under oath that they did not know what Terri wanted, and even if they knew that she would want the feeding tube removed they would not do it. Terri's husband and two of his family members each testified (and were unable to be impeached under cross examination) that at different times, Terri had expressed a desire not to be kept alive by artificial means. The court also based their decison not solely on testimony, but as the court stated, taking into account the person that Terri was, her personality, her previous decision making process.

The case went to the 2nd District Court of Appeals, which found that the trial court had followed the law, and upon review of the case found that the trial court was correct in it's decision, and that they came to the same conclusion as the trial court. The decision of the Trial court was reviewed and affirmed. The Schindlers have petitioned the court for YEARS over a wide range of things, and have lost every single time. For all the screaming by the Schindler family that the husband only wants to get his hands on her money, they forget to mention that they want custody of her, and then they would be heirs to her estate, much like the husband is now. The fail to mention that they demanded money from the husband from the malpractice lawsuit, and when he refused to give it to them, then and only then did they seek to have him removed as guardian. They have changed their story throughout the years, while the husband has consistantly maintained that he is only doing this because he believes it is what Terri wanted. The husband has been offered money time and again and it's always been refused. He offered to "give up" the malpractice award if the Schindlers would just walk away and allow Terri's wishes to be carried out, and they refused. The Schindlers offered to sign over book, tv, & movie deal rights if the husband would give them custody of her. He refused, saying again it wasn't about money or anything other than following Terri's wishes.

TImeline of Events:

February 1990… Terri suffers cardiac arrest and a severe loss of oxygen to her brain

May 1990… Terri leaves hospital and is brought to a rehabiliation center for aggressive therapy

July 1990… Terri is brought to the home where her husband and parents live; after a few weeks, she is brought back to the rehabilitation center

November 1990… Terri is taken to California for experimental therapies

January 1991… Terri is returned to Florida and placed at a rehabilitation center in Brandon

July 1991… Terri is transfered to a skilled nursing facility where she receives aggressive physical therapy and speech therapy

May 1992… Michael and the Schindlers stop living together

January 1993… Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri's care; jury had ruled in Michael's favor on allegations Terri's doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; case settled while on appeal

March 1994… Terri is transferred to a Largo nursing home

May 1998… Michael files petition for court to determine whether Terri's feeding tube should be removed; Michael takes position that Terri would chose to remove the tube; Terri's parents take position that Terri would chose not to remove the tube

February 2000… Following trial, Judge Greer rules that clear and convincing evidence shows Terri would chose not to receive life-prolonging medical care under her current circumstances (i.e., that she would chose to have the tube removed)

April 2000… Terri is transferred to a Hospice facility

January 2001… Second District Court of Appeal affirms the trial court's decision regarding Terri's wishes

April 23, 2001… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision

April 23 or 24, 2001… Trial court orders feeding tube removed

April 24, 2001… Terri's feeding tube is removed

April 26, 2001… Terri's parents file motion asserting they have new evidence regarding Terri's wishes

April 26, 2001… Trial court denies Terri's parents' motion as untimely

April 26, 2001… Terri's parents file new legal action against Michael Schiavo and request that the removal of Terri's feeding tube be enjoined; the case is randomly assigned to Judge Quesada

April 26, 2001… Judge Quesada grants the temporary injunction, orders Terri's feeding tube restored

July 2001… Second District rules that Judge Greer erred in denying the motion alleging new evidence and, in essence, orders the trial court to consider whether new circumstances make enforcement of the original order inequitable; Second District also reverses the temporary injunction and orders dismissal of much of the new action filed before Judge Quesada

(uncertain)… Terri's parents detail their reasons why enforcement is inequitable: (1) new witnesses have new information regarding Terri's wishes, and (2) new medical treatment could sufficiently restore Terri's cognitive functioning such that Terri would decide that, under those circumstances, she would continue life-prolonging measures; Terri's parents also move to disqualify Judge Greer

(uncertain)… Trial court denies both motions as insufficient

October 2001… Second District affirms the denial of the motion to disqualify and the motion regarding the new witnesses; the appellate court reverses the order with regard to potential new medical treatments and orders a trial on that question with doctors testifying for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor

March 2002… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision

October 2002… Judge Greer holds a trial on the new medical treatment issue, hearing from doctors for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor; Terri's parents also assert that Terri is not in a persistent vegetative state

Schindlers file emergency motion for relief from judgment based on a 1991 bone scan report indicating Terri's body had previously been subjected to trauma

November 22, 2002… Following trial, Judge Greer denies Schindlers' motion for relief (new medical evidence motion), rules that no new treatment offers sufficient promise of improving Terri's cognitive functioning and that Terri is, in fact, in a persistent vegetative state

November 22, 2002… On this same day, Judge Greer denies Schindlers' emergency motion related to the 1991 bone scan

June 2003… Second District affirms the trial court's decision denying Schindlers' motion for relief from judgment

August 2003… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision

September 2003… Terri's parents file federal action challenging Florida's laws on life-prolonging procedures as unconstitutional

October 10, 2003… Federal court dismisses Schindlers' case

October 15, 2003… Terri's feeding tube is disconnected

October 20, 2003… Florida House passes a bill to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri's and restore her feeding tube

October 21, 2003… Federal court rejects injunction request

October 21, 2003… Florida House and Senate pass a bill known informally as "Terri's Law" to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri's and restore her feeding tube ; Governor signs the bill into law and immediately orders a stay; Terri is briefly hospitalized while her feeding tube is restored

October 21, 2003… Michael brings suit against the Governor, asking to enjoin the Governor's stay on grounds "Terri's Law" is unconstitutional; Judge Baird rejects Michael's request for an immediate injunction, allowing the tube to be restored, and requests briefs on the constitutional arguments involving the new law

November 7, 2003… Judge Baird rejects Governor's motion to dismiss Michael's suit and have case litigated in Tallahassee

November 20, 2003… Judge Baird rejects Governor's request for the judge to recuse himself

December 1, 2003… Guardian ad litem appointed under "Terri's Law" to advise Governor submits report to Governor

December 10, 2003… Second District rejects Governor's effort to have Judge Baird disqualified

April 2004… Second District affirms Judge Baird's decision denying Governor's motion to dismiss and have case litigated in Tallahassee

May 2004… Judge Baird declares "Terri's Law" unconstitutional on numerous grounds

June 2004… Second District certifies "Terri's Law" case directly to the Florida Supreme Court

July 2004… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment based on Pope John Paul II speech

September 2004… Florida Supreme Court affirms Judge Baird's ruling that "Terri's Law" is unconstitutional

October 2004… Judge Greer denies Schindlers' most recent motion for relief from judgment (motion based on Pope John Paul II speech)

December 1, 2004… Governor asks U.S. Supreme Court to review Florida Supreme Court's decision declaring "Terri's Law" unconstitutional

December 29, 2004… Second District affirms (without written opinion) Judge Greer's ruling denying Schindlers' most recent motion for relief from judgment

January 6, 2005… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment, alleging Terri never had her own attorney, that the trial court impermissibly applied the law retroactively, and that the original trial on Terri's wishes violated separation of powers principles

January 24, 2005… U.S. Supreme Court declines review in "Terri's Law" case

February 11, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers' latest motion for relief from judgment

All court decisions can be found at this site:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

The discharge diagnosis from the hospital where she was originally taken is:

Principle Diagnosis:

*Cardiac Arrest

Secondary Diagnosis:

*Anoxic Brain Damage

*Hypopotassemia

*Respiratory Failure

*Pneumonia Due to Staphylococcus

*Effusion of Joint, Lower Legs

*Bacterial Disease

*Staphylococcus Infection in Conditions Classified Elsewhere &/OR Of Unspecified Site

Here is a link to the CAT scan done on Terri in 1996

http://img217.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img217ℑ=catscan8cg.jpg

Her cerebral cortex is gone and has been replaced with spinal fluid. Her brain stem is still functioning and is the cause behind her movements and the noises she makes. It's simple reflexive actions, not cognitive activity.

She's been given 3 separate swallowing tests and each has determined that she is unable to swallow on her own. If someone tried to feed her or give her liquid by mouth, she would most likely aspirate and/or develop pneumonia.

It's my opinion that the parents are less than honest, and have proven that they don't care as much for their daughter as they do for the spotlight of the media. These people went against court orders and took video of their daughter at the hospice facility and has been offering those video clips online, for a donation to their fund, and even went so far as to ask the court to allow the media to be in her room during the death process after the tube is removed. Their claims of abuse have been investigated time and again, and proven to be unfounded.

The person Terri Schiavo was, is gone. Her wishes have been determined in a court of law.

[SomeDanGuy]

Yep, I'm with Daniel on this. I'm for letting her die, for the reasons listed above.

What has because the most disgusting part is congress' attempted involvement. This is not something congress should have any involvement in. 1) It's not their place to make decisions for private citizens 2) they are overstepping their bounds by trying to circumvent the judicial system which has already ruled on this matter

Tom Delay said something to the effect of 'it's not right that one person [terry's husband] should make decisions for another citizen' as his argument for congress intervening. Umm, so what you're saying is 'I have the right to step in and make decisions for another person, because it's not right for someone to step in and make decisions for another person"?

[Onyx]

She hasn't been truly alive for years anyway. They should have followed her wishes. I'm saddened that they disregarded what she wanted.

[Nienna]

This is one of those cases where today's advanced technology isn't necessarily good. When we insist on continuing to force a body to live, years after it should have died... that's pretty scary, and disrespectful to who that person was.

I experienced a cardiac arrest several years ago and was ressutated and on life support for about 12 hours. (Allergic Reaction, freak occurance) In this case it was a good thing. It saved my life and I made a full recovery... I have since filed a "Do Not Rescutate" order. I was lucky, but it could have turned out the opposite. In Terry's case recovery is not possible and therefore makes the whole thing obscene. It's just wrong.

[torn asunder]

my only thought - "good god, let her go!" :unhappy:

[The_Dark]

My wife follows this case pretty close and keeps me informed. I have to agree, Let the poor woman go.

[Brenda Starrr]

I just read where Bush signed emergency legislation to allow her parents to ask the jusge to put the tube back in. How fucking selfish of them! She has and will have no quality of life.

[Daniel]

I just read where Bush signed emergency legislation to allow her parents to ask the jusge to put the tube back in. How fucking selfish of them! She has and will have no quality of life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just disgusted.

You know, and I am saying this as someone who had to take my greatest love off of life support and watch her die within the last two months. Terri is in far worse condition than Laura was, and is... gone. The woman has no life left in her to save, they are just keeping her body functioning. She is less than a zombie at this point. It is ruthless, and I simply can't understand why anyone, particularly religious people, would want to keep her alive artificially. The fact that our government is trampling all over this family matter is sickening. Particularly when the court has clearly ruled that it was the woman's wish to not be kept on life support.

[Brenda Starrr]

It makes me so sick to see that this sort of shit is going on. Daniel, your situation is with me every day. Then I see this and all I can do is just shake my head. It's just wrong.

[Ginevra]

One of the points that keeps sticking with me is that the first time that they took Terri off the feeding tube, they left her off for 6 DAYS before putting it back again. I just recently had a medical situation where I was on soft/liquid foods for several days and I felt like I was *starving* by the time I could get back on solids again. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine what it's like to be without sustenance for 6 DAYS and then suddenly receive nourishment again.

The way this case is, the husband should have the last say in it. I'm NOT trying to throw religion into this; please don't think that I am. When a woman marries her husband, from a slightly religious standpoint, she is no longer the responsibility of the family, but of her husband instead. Terri, from what I can gather of the facts given, had made her wishes known to her husband who is/was her life partner and they are/were responsible for each other. The husband tried to carry out Terry's wishes but the family, for whatever reasons they do have, whether it be money, greed or just the simple wish to not see their daughter die, are against this.

If something were to happen to me, it would be legally up to my parents to make my choices for me since I am not married. Anyone that I'm "simply dating" has no authority unless I make a power of attorney and empower them to do so. Even if we were "married" due to the common law marriage rule, it still wouldn't matter because he's still just the "live-in".

It's very hard to let go. I know that it is. Perhaps what it boils down to is that it's simply that the family cannot bring themselves to let their daughter go and end this unnatural existance. But the quality of life of an individual must be examined and choices made from there. If Terri hasn't made any recovery progress in what? 10 years?, it's likely that she's not going to unless a miracle were to happen, which doesn't seem likely at this point.

Let the poor lady go, people. Let her wishes be known and followed as she would have wanted.

I don't know about anyone else, but this makes me want to find an attorney NOW and make a living will and a power of attorney.

[Daniel]

Your post breathes a lot more "hope" into the situation than there really is. Terri has NO chance of recovery. Nothing short of a supernatural miracle will help. Therapy was attempted for quite a while. Look at the CT scan above, and the medical history... the functional part of her brain is simply GONE. Also, regardless of traditions regarding marriage, etc, the court has fairly ruled that Terri's wish would have been to not be on life support. At this point, it is more a matter of what has been ruled to be Terri's wishes, vs what her husband wants, and far more importantantly, what her parents want. Her parents are deliberately ignoring her wishes (they stated so in court). Her husband made this motion in court intentionally to make this point.

Also, this idea that she is going to starve to death, and that it will be torture is... a fallicious attempt to garner sympathy on behalf of Terri's parents. The cognitive part of her brain is gone. All that will happen is her body will starve and die. Terri isn't going to be tortured. Her brain is dead. It will be a horrible thing to witness, watching her body starve and slowly died, but... is that worse than what is going on now?

[lullaby1031]

I recently had to deal with the loss of a loved one who had Cerebral Palsy and she had came down with pneumonia. After watching her starve out her death - it sickened me. Then seeing how that poor womens family keep pushing for something that wouldn't be helping in the long run made me feel so angry. But we just wished that she had gone quick and not suffered. In any event, this is where you need to make known to your loved ones since this should be a matter KEPT within the family.

Also - DONATE DONATE DONATE!!! Just because your physical body dies doesn't mean the end of it all. I think of it differently.. If i donate then a piece of me is still living to help someone eles therefore it would be like I'm still living. I guess that I'm just a humanitarian at heart. And that would bring comfort to all parties envolved.

[Rivet_HeadINC]

Ya know, this may sound cold and heartless but to be honest, I never heard anything about how she got in to the state she was in before she passed except for once on NPR.

They said that she suffered from belimia or was it anirexia?(I think I got the spellings correct?) Either way, she starved herself in to the state she was in, and her husband didn't want to see her suffer.

He had every right to do waht he felt he needed to do, and it was truly his place to do so. But, that is just my opinion and sometimes that doesn't even count for shit.

As it is, she is no longer suffering.

[Marblez]

I am curious why they had an autopsy. WHY? You know why she died, why go poking around?

[The_Dark]

For a number of reasons...

1. It's Florida State Law

2. The Husband wants to show that she was indeed brain dead.

3. The parents want to show that the husband abused her and put her in that state so they can take the money.

[amalthea23]

Also, this idea that she is going to starve to death, and that it will be torture is... a fallicious attempt to garner sympathy on behalf of Terri's parents. The cognitive part of her brain is gone. All that will happen is her body will starve and die. Terri isn't going to be tortured. Her brain is dead. It will be a horrible thing to witness, watching her body starve and slowly died, but... is that worse than what is going on now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Further on this point, if she DID have cognitive ability, she STILL wouldn't suffer since complete starvation is NOT a painful experience. What causes hunger/thirst pains is giving the patient small amounts of food or water (gee, kinda like that communion wafer her parents tried to have put in her mouth.) When you see people suffering as they starve, it's because they're being given a little bit of food, or a little bit of water. When you are completely deprived of food, you enter a state of eupohria and are no longer hungry. This has been studied and documented. I'm horrified that people twist every fact to their advantage.

I'm further saddened that the "loved ones" of this woman who was so insecure as to put herself in this position in the first place felt she'd want to be paraded on world wide television like Maybelline's own flesh golem. Just awful...

[Black Sunday]

Further on this point, if she DID have cognitive ability, she STILL wouldn't suffer since complete starvation is NOT a painful experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know about that. I skipped breakfast this morning and I was definately suffering. But then I went to taco bell and everything was alright.

[Daniel]

I don't know about that.  I skipped breakfast this morning and I was definately suffering.   But then I went to taco bell and everything was alright.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even when speaking in terms of fasting, the most discomfort is usually experienced in the first twenty four hours. Even that isn't real pain, and more like discomfort. After that, it is usually smooth sailing. Of course, most people don't fast to death, but, there is definitely a small hump to get over. A person with no brain wouldn't feel that, though.