Bible Study..

[hunhee]

This is not the topic where we discuss whether there is or is not a God, but more of a study and a literate explaination of the bible. We're always talking about the bible, referencing it, I figured it would definitely spark discussion.

Lets start with one of the famed stories Cain and Abel (kinda discussed in Just Curious topic)..

Why would God validate Abel's gift to him more than Cain's? I mean, the only reason why Cain was jealous, was because God favoured Abel. If God would have reveared their gifts the same, then Cain wouldn't have gotten pissed off and killed Abel.

I mean was this a mistake on God's part? God is supposed to be all knowing right? Wouldn't God know how Cain would have reacted to him favoring Abel over Cain? I don't understand how he could let this happen, he was definitely responsible for the distruction of Abel.. and then he goes and tells Adam and Eve to make him another child to replace the one he lost.. WTF?!! like people are replaceable?

Also, even BEFORE God asked Adam & Eve to make him another child, there are all these people sprouting around everywhere..where did these people come from if they didn't come from Adam & Eve? Or was the bible arbitrarily skipping around?

[phee]

This thread will lead to some interesting places.....

Good topic... more to come

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Well... before Christ died for our sin's... we all had to do a ritual sacrifice to God. This sacrifice required an animal be killed and burnt on an alter. The blood of an animal had to be spilled to meet the requirments set forth by God. Cain refused to do the sacrifice properly.

It's all about jealousy. Cain was jealous of Ables favor with God. That is, if you only look at that little part of the story. The story is told in the Old Testament, the Torah, the Qur'an and Pearl of Great Price. There are several tellings of it in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The part that people gloss over or miss is that what he was really jealous about was pussy. They were both set to get married to a set of twins (thier sisters) and Able was going to get the better looking of the two. This is covered in a few other ancient writings... the Midrash is the only one thaqt comes to mind.

I dont know... it's one of the deepest most layered storys from Biblical times harkening back to Sumerians storys.

BTW. Adam and Eve had just huge amounts of children.. who got busy and had more children... everybody was fucking everybody. Why noone was born wth 5 arms and 6 assholes amazes me. In-breeding is bad.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

just so we get this out.. I dont think anyone on this board is qualified to make any kind of definitive statement or analisys of this subject. So take everything I just said knowing that I know I don;t know enough about this to truly comment.

[ttogreh]

Are we really going to try to tease out divine reasoning from ancient texts written by men who had an agenda to pursue when they wrote down the ancient stories of early humanity?

I knew enough when I was corresponding with Steven about this to know I don't know enough, and that my opinion would not sway anyone. Yeah... I don't think this thread will end well...

[phee]

I studied western religions in collage.... not so much theology though.... more the history of it.

[hunhee]

I think I originally started this topic so we could get some good discussion around the stories, be it from the bible, or from any other readings. I was actually going to start some from other religious theologies, later on, but wanted to see how this went.

I don't expect anyone to defend the writings, to be convinced to join up on some religious train, I just wanted to discuss some literature we're all pretty familiar with and seem to hold strong feelings towards.

I myself am agnostic, I will tell anyone that. I don't have any "i'm going to recruit you all" agenda here, I just like talking about things that actually have some substance.

So, I think Gaf started some good stuff here, thank you, I'm going to look more stuff up on it. After I had read the posts about Cain and Abel, I re-read the stuff in the bible. Maybe Cain was like me, and I have no problem watching people get killed on tv, and all that violent stuff, but i have a problem when they beat an animal on TV.

Cain wasn't a herdsman, so he would have to what? buy or trade his brother some of his own booty so that he can offer someone else's lamb to God? If I were God I would be throughly disappointed. What's with that shit? why can't veggies and stuff be good enough for God.. Did God tell them this is what he required? I can hardly believe God would tell them..hey now that you don't live in Eden anymore (which I know, they never did i meant that as Humanity no longer has the privelage to live in Eden), you gotta pay some rent.. I need an animal offering. Give me your best lamb. Well if crops were tight, and he could only afford a cheap lamb, was this good enough? I'm guessing it wasn't.

I was told the Bible was a complete book, and I just need this to know how to survive. Gaf is now telling me I've gotta read 4-6 other books in order to understand what is truly meant by this. I don't believe that generations before us, had access to all these documents like we do. How did they know how to survive??

[Burrich1]

I have been lead to believe that there are numerous books of the bible which have been "lost" or decided they should no longer be a part of the bible. I believe as recently as 1885 the Arch Bishop of Canterbury pulled 7 or 8 books from the bible, which now is known as the King James Bible, and may be the most commonly used.

I suspect quite a few others over the years have been deemed unnecessary for the masses to view, but I guess I cant substantiate this. I’m just figuring only the elite classes had access to written text hundreds of years ago, (especially considering the text was copied by hand prior to 1455 when Gutenburg invented the printing press.) and knowing the history of the church and what too much information can do to the public, I would bet quite a bit of cash certain books of the bible were deemed unnecessary for the public eyes, not to mention changes made to the books that were released to the public.

So I think they survived by "the man" telling them that this was what you needed to survive, and don't ask questions. It would be really cool to be able to read some ancient Latin, Hebrew, and Greek and have free reign at some restricted library in the Vatican.

Then again, I am probably completely

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

The First Book of Adam and Eve

The Second Book of Adam and Eve

The Book of the Secrets of Enoch

The Psalms of Solomon

The Odes of Solomon

The Letter of Aristeas

Fourth Book of Maccabees

The Story of Ahikar

The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs

Testament of Reuben

Testament of Simeon

Testament of Levi

The Testament of Judah

The Testament of Issachar

The Testament of Zebulun

The Testament of Dan

The Testament of Naphtali

The Testament Of Gad

The Testament of Asher

The Testament of Joseph

The Testament of Benjamin

The Gospel of Thomas

The Book of Enoch

and many more....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

To address the complete book thing...

I happen to really like the wirtings of Michael Moorcock. I've read damn near everything he has ever writen. In most of his books, the main charactor is the same person... reincarnated, transported or toherwise metemorphed into another aspect of the Eternal Champion. It's a rather complex and layered story line. I've also read hundreds of reviews of those books. I have read books that analized those books.. catalog the imagery, metaphors and analogys.

I mean...

sometimes it not enough to read the account of an event by the person at the center of it. That guy on his right saw some cool ass shit too. So did that guy across the street. Then a few weeks later this other guy talked to a bunch of people and then wrote a telling of the event pieced togther from all of those...

Sometimes it's not enough to just read something and believe it. Sometimes, to fully understand it, you have to study it from all angles possible.

[hunhee]

I have been lead to believe that there are numerous books of the bible which have been "lost" or decided they should no longer be a part of the bible. I believe as recently as 1885 the Arch Bishop of Canterbury pulled 7 or 8 books from the bible, which now is known as the King James Bible, and may be the most commonly used.

I suspect quite a few others over the years have been deemed unnecessary for the masses to view, but I guess I cant substantiate this. I’m just figuring only the elite classes had access to written text hundreds of years ago, (especially considering the text was copied by hand prior to 1455 when Gutenburg invented the printing press.) and knowing the history of the church and what too much information can do to the public, I would bet quite a bit of cash certain books of the bible were deemed unnecessary for the public eyes, not to mention changes made to the books that were released to the public.

So I think they survived by "the man" telling them that this was what you needed to survive, and don't ask questions. It would be really cool to be able to read some ancient Latin, Hebrew, and Greek and have free reign at some restricted library in the Vatican.

Then again, I am probably completely

I totally agree with some things being removed because it didn't "fit" what that particular person's agenda was, and who would know? Not many had read it till then.

There were several texts that were deemed unfit for the bible, in it's early construction. Have you ever heard of the Gnostics?

Back then not a lot of people knew how to read. I mean they probably knew that eventually the lay people would learn to read, but not for hundreds of years down the road, they could say the texts said ANYTHING and people would probably have followed blindly.

I guess what scares me the most, is.. I have friends, highly educated friends, one of them being a history major, and they have confessed to me that they've never read the bible in it's entirety. In fact, never read it ever, just the mini Sunday School stories that they got when they were kids. They believe in God, in fact, they used to argue with me, as weak an argument as they could muster. All talk about faith, and them basically HOPING that God exists, and not actually wondering where the proof is in their lives.

To me, reading something like that isn't something you just READ, you have to analize it, and make it make sense in your head. You can read things, but if you don't think about what it's trying to get at, then you've wasted your time.

[Steven]

Are we really going to try to tease out divine reasoning from ancient texts written by men who had an agenda to pursue when they wrote down the ancient stories of early humanity?

I knew enough when I was corresponding with Steven about this to know I don't know enough, and that my opinion would not sway anyone. Yeah... I don't think this thread will end well...

i think this will be a great thread and THANK YOU HUNHEE for your boldness here, I dug it.

[Steven]

ok, its christmas mornign, so fast and loose....

Gaf - right on target. You are correct about animal sacrifice - the first one being made when God slew an animal and used its hide to make covers for Adam and eve's nakedness - tha was in acutality the very first animal sacrifce made as a "covering" for sin....and the first sin committed that had a physical manifestation of shame in regard to their both realizing they were naked...interesting symobolism here...

Hunhee I can only assume (there are differing theories but I dont theink they are important to the whole why of God and what he wants form us) that yes indeed - the biblica text jumps aorund a bit and focuses on particular people and events for specific purposes, most of the time being reiterated in other passags and even often again in new testment writings.

My Beleif:

several generations of populating had allready taken place by the time Cain slew his brother - as part of the whole "be fruitful and become many" directive by God. I also find it hard pressed to beleive that the writer of the early Edenic accounts did no consider the questions you are asking, people were people, even then.,....we have always had some degree of (hopefully) logic, therefore i again assume the writer intends to focus on a bigger picture and assumes you and I are able to grasp at that.

So - Cain, Abel, and "others" were around. after all Cain took a wife and left when he was cast out for the murder.

Gaf - again you are correct - it was a jealousy trip, and not the only one you'll see in scriptire and certainly not the first - the original jealousy trip was that of Lucifer and the throne fo the almighty that he coveted for himself.

God often uses references that enlightn us on teh charactor and heart condition of specific people - in order to exemplify that which he cherishes and that wich he dispises - Cain and Abel are perfect ilustrations of that. It had nothgin to do with crops versus lamb meat. Ith ad everythign to do with honor and reverance and it gives us insight into the fallen heart condition of early man, an argument I mad ein another thread.

Hunhee - thank you for this thread.

Steven

[Steven]

fortgot to add to address your Gnostics idea - yes - and if you research it you'll find the very first organized "churches".... a mere 40 years or so after Christs death, were allready incrediby subdivided, you get this form Paul's letters in the New Testament.

if there is truth there is division.

if there is "ONE" way there are alternatives.

[hunhee]

fortgot to add to address your Gnostics idea - yes - and if you research it you'll find the very first organized "churches".... a mere 40 years or so after Christs death, were allready incrediby subdivided, you get this form Paul's letters in the New Testament.

if there is truth there is division.

if there is "ONE" way there are alternatives.

I guess what I'm concerned with is.. how did they know which stories to choose? I mean, I'd like to think that if I were one of the people deciding on which pslams and verses need to go into the bible, I would want to be as objective as possible, but I have my own agendas, and I have my own influences, and i can't lie and say that they wouldn't be considered in the decisions that I made.

I think I may have bit off more than i can chew.. I need to gets to reading..hehe

You're welcome Steven.. and no one ever told me I didn't have any cajones.. well i physically don't have those, but you get my drift.

[Steven]

great questions.

I can tell you this much (and can supply you with research links later) that the whole council of Nicea situation has been grossly twisted in how its (mis) represented this day and age, and movies like the Davinci Code are unfortunately looked upon as credible, simply bevcause they use statemetns that make them sound as if they are an authority....and people dont really do their homework, they instead often get on board the bandwagon and just touch upon a smidge of apparent truth or history.

I agree that no one - can cannonize anything without their own agenda's creeping in - and this certainly applies to ANY religeous idea, political or social idea, secular humanistic idea, etc etc etc. this is human nature.....I do not see it as a sin, or even as misleading, to gather togethor specific groupings of information to support an idea....

this is the whatI constantly return to when it comes to cannonized scripture:

a) that ALL things have a beginning and with the human element comes fractures and factions and alternative thoughts and perspectives.

b) that I beleive scripture is indeed God breathed and authored - as a muse for a tool to reveal himself to man. I often liken it to poetry or song (which makes up aprt of the bible) in that the muse grabs you and reveals itself in the written work. I see scripture the same way. And therefore I see scripture picked apart and argued against in a manner that to me, does not really align itslef with the work being discussed. Sort of like when I watch college professors pick apart Hemmingway to reveal the writer's mechanisms and methods and sets of goals.....to me Hemmingway was simply a tortured man with an incredible gift that he gave into. To pick it all apart and thorize it to death and to sub categorize it has nothign to do with the art itself or even the man itself. To argue the validity of scripture is likewise (to me at least) just as much of a waste. It can neither be proven nor disproven, it can only be accepted or rejected....and I think this was always God's goal when he influenced certain people to write, and then later gather and cannonize, certain aspects of his nature.

c) that if there is a God, truly a God behind all of this cosmic mess.....that he has the ability to influence and direct, and therefore has the ability to take care of that which he wants revelaed, HOWEVER he chooses to do it. we always seem to want to pick apart "God" in our own limited human logic, and yet none of us are realy qualified to quantify that which is so far beyond our grasp.....and instead we are left with only two choices, accept or reject. And again I see this as the genius of God.

d) and finnaly, just as the fact that not all people are lineal - neither can scripture be always researched in a lineal fashion, its simply not designed that way, and it reveals itself (and yourself) the more you dig in in search of the creator behind it....if your willing to risk the ridicule and release of personal control that accompanies a pursuit of this sort.

[Steven]

I think I may have bit off more than i can chew.. I need to gets to reading..hehe

no.....no you didint babe.

I think the way to truth is found thru real life conversation, the imprint of our souls is written there.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

great questions.

I can tell you this much (and can supply you with research links later) that the whole council of Nicea situation has been grossly twisted in how its (mis) represented this day and age, and movies like the Davinci Code are unfortunately looked upon as credible, simply bevcause they use statemetns that make them sound as if they are an authority....and people dont really do their homework, they instead often get on board the bandwagon and just touch upon a smidge of apparent truth or history.

I've heard this in a few places, mostly on evangelism TV programs and a few times on the Internet. The people that actually "care" lets say, i think usually are savvy enough not to base their biblical thinking on some random entertainment novel/movie that happens to have a biblical theme.

I know there are plenty of fools out there, but in the context of this type of conversation, if they are so clueless as to use entertainment as their basis for biblical research, we can probably safely just ignore them in terms of the validity of their viewpoints about such subjects.

Will save us time, since we only have so much.

There is plenty more in this topic to respond to, I'm just trying to avoid the novel-length replies since i know many (if not most) tend to skip over huge blocks of text.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Information is made useful by its user, not by its method of transmssion.

This is not the topic where we discuss whether there is or is not a God, but more of a study and a literate explaination of the bible. We're always talking about the bible, referencing it, I figured it would definitely spark discussion.

Lets start with one of the famed stories Cain and Abel (kinda discussed in Just Curious topic)..

Why would God validate Abel's gift to him more than Cain's? I mean, the only reason why Cain was jealous, was because God favoured Abel. If God would have reveared their gifts the same, then Cain wouldn't have gotten pissed off and killed Abel.

I mean was this a mistake on God's part? God is supposed to be all knowing right? Wouldn't God know how Cain would have reacted to him favoring Abel over Cain? I don't understand how he could let this happen, he was definitely responsible for the distruction of Abel.. and then he goes and tells Adam and Eve to make him another child to replace the one he lost.. WTF?!! like people are replaceable?

Also, even BEFORE God asked Adam & Eve to make him another child, there are all these people sprouting around everywhere..where did these people come from if they didn't come from Adam & Eve? Or was the bible arbitrarily skipping around?

To make it easier to "understand" : Basically you have to ignore any modern rationalist viewpoints and just know that its all true, all perfect, and all completely harmonious and correct. Remind yourself that if it seems too confusing that there is a school of thought that says rational thought is not all its cracked up to be. We just need to take most of it on faith. THEN , go around and find factoids , believers, opinions , texts and such that help make that the biblical accounts seem more palatable.

The Cain & Able story in particular , there isn't anything there hardly. There is maybe 1 page (?) of story, all of it being poorly described for a modern reader that actually expects detail. Its so sketchy and without explanation that you can make up what you want to try and "fill in the blanks" the bible is defiantly not what we'd think of as a "comprehensive document". Its more of a short summary of a billion different stories with only skeleton accounts in many cases.

If you try to put 2 + 2 together too much with only the bible as your source and no outside information, you'll fail. Without grabbing random facts / opinions / texts that aren't actually in the bible to massage the stories in the bible to make sense to a modern reader its an impossible set of information to unravel. Even with such information, it feels at times more like a set of riddles than a book meant to illuminate but at least the chaos is more manageable.

The first reaction of a non-beliver or skeptic seems to be that all-knowing would have a much clearer, direct form of communication. The "divine scriptures" would be updated in crystal clear language by this all-powerful being. It shouldn't need all this defending and explanation if its the unerring word of the almighty, it should just be right there. This type of "thinking" is a good example of what the bible tends to frown upon. Stop that, just believe and thou shalt be saved.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I have been lead to believe that there are numerous books of the bible which have been "lost" or decided they should no longer be a part of the bible. I believe as recently as 1885 the Arch Bishop of Canterbury pulled 7 or 8 books from the bible, which now is known as the King James Bible, and may be the most commonly used.

I suspect quite a few others over the years have been deemed unnecessary for the masses to view, but I guess I cant substantiate this. I’m just figuring only the elite classes had access to written text hundreds of years ago, (especially considering the text was copied by hand prior to 1455 when Gutenburg invented the printing press.) and knowing the history of the church and what too much information can do to the public, I would bet quite a bit of cash certain books of the bible were deemed unnecessary for the public eyes, not to mention changes made to the books that were released to the public.

So I think they survived by "the man" telling them that this was what you needed to survive, and don't ask questions. It would be really cool to be able to read some ancient Latin, Hebrew, and Greek and have free reign at some restricted library in the Vatican.

Then again, I am probably completely

Yep. Maybe a few of the details there aren't 100% correct , but theres a long, long history of many more writings being used as scripture than the ones that are used today. "The Bible" should be considered the "collection of writings" about christan teachings, rather than a single text. "A Bible" (Bible meaning parchment/writing/book(s)) is probably a better way to put it, rather than "The Bible".

Having said that, its only mildly relevant, since most people dont have a clue whats actually IN the cannon or non-cannon.

Which is far more relevant than one particular writing or another is considered cannon or not. I'd start with the KJ-ish cannon and worry about the other stuff once the cannon is familiar.

[Steven]

I've heard this in a few places, mostly on evangelism TV programs and a few times on the Internet. The people that actually "care" lets say, i think usually are savvy enough not to base their biblical thinking on some random entertainment novel/movie that happens to have a biblical theme.

I know there are plenty of fools out there, but in the context of this type of conversation, if they are so clueless as to use entertainment as their basis for biblical research, we can probably safely just ignore them in terms of the validity of their viewpoints about such subjects.

Will save us time, since we only have so much.

There is plenty more in this topic to respond to, I'm just trying to avoid the novel-length replies since i know many (if not most) tend to skip over huge blocks of text.

Hi.

point well taken.

let me just add this however because my use of the movie was not a great illustrator of where I was going:

Many people on DGN have tried to prove a biblical point by inserting quoted scripture. Scripture that Ive read hundreds of times, examined in alternate translations, an dug in to possible hebrew, greek, and aramaic interpretations of the text since I was a kid.

Anybody with a PC can go online and do a quick word search and voila, there you go - "its in the bible so my point is true" but no - thats not sound logic.

So when I ask them to expand a bit, tell me who wrote that book, wehat era it may have been in, who was being addressed, the recent history of the people and or events, who was in power, and if that book was a letter, a book of prophesy, a history archive, a songbook, a book of petry, etc..... 99% of the time (with a respectful exclusion of a few) they cannot answer my questions and do not care to do the research - but they still want to stand on their perspective unchallanged.

I always ask for context, for a reason.

and to know that context, you have to do some digging.

[Steven]

Yep. Maybe a few of the details there aren't 100% correct , but theres a long, long history of many more writings being used as scripture than the ones that are used today. "The Bible" should be considered the "collection of writings" about christan teachings, rather than a single text. "A Bible" (Bible meaning parchment/writing/book(s)) is probably a better way to put it, rather than "The Bible".

Having said that, its only mildly relevant, since most people dont have a clue whats actually IN the cannon or non-cannon.

Which is far more relevant than one particular writing or another is considered cannon or not. I'd start with the KJ-ish cannon and worry about the other stuff once the cannon is familiar.

good points. and I completely agree that The Bible is actually a collection (over a great period of time) of Christian writings.

I beleive somewhere in here I mae a point to Hun Hee that I (personally) beleive that the muse that caused the creation AND collection of these books into a cannonized format were divinely directed. I suppose thats a bit of a stretch for people, but I simply think that if "God" exists and is the creator of all things, he could handle and or direct the collection and cannonization process. to me its not a stretch and its condusive to many aspects of his nature as found IN the cannonized text......to include the "ugly" stuff, the distatestful stuff, the unpopular stuff.

I have the King James here at home, two of them actually. I have about 6 different translations of scripture - to in clude the New World Translation by the Jehovahs Witnesses and the apprypha. That to me - (the New World Translation) in my own personal experience - has been the only translation that deviates from the whole, and even that is slight of hand and needs to be examined carefully in light of their personal history - Troy you know what Im talking about.

I have many times made this point and have not really seen it addressed, I will make it again.

there are literally thousands of partial biblical translations that have been dug up over the years in the form of ancient texts. Thats a big word, thousands. ALong with that have been found gnostic writings, and other works of "scripture" such as the book of Judas, extra epistles of Peter, etc.

But here's the thing....in the archeological discoveries of copies of the CANNONIZED work - the translations do not deviate from the gospel, where there is a conflict and a new or different gospel introduced. We talk about extra and other writings, and I accept that argument and I do not have a good answer to satisfy you all - in terms of where the line is drawn, and neither do any of you for that matter.

But I dont accept the theory of clashing translations of cannonized scripture, and Im open to reveiw it or study your submissions in this regard.

[Steven]

Information is made useful by its user, not by its method of transmssion.

To make it easier to "understand" : Basically you have to ignore any modern rationalist viewpoints and just know that its all true, all perfect, and all completely harmonious and correct. Remind yourself that if it seems too confusing that there is a school of thought that says rational thought is not all its cracked up to be. We just need to take most of it on faith. THEN , go around and find factoids , believers, opinions , texts and such that help make that the biblical accounts seem more palatable.

The Cain & Able story in particular , there isn't anything there hardly. There is maybe 1 page (?) of story, all of it being poorly described for a modern reader that actually expects detail. Its so sketchy and without explanation that you can make up what you want to try and "fill in the blanks" the bible is defiantly not what we'd think of as a "comprehensive document". Its more of a short summary of a billion different stories with only skeleton accounts in many cases.

If you try to put 2 + 2 together too much with only the bible as your source and no outside information, you'll fail. Without grabbing random facts / opinions / texts that aren't actually in the bible to massage the stories in the bible to make sense to a modern reader its an impossible set of information to unravel. Even with such information, it feels at times more like a set of riddles than a book meant to illuminate but at least the chaos is more manageable.

The first reaction of a non-beliver or skeptic seems to be that all-knowing would have a much clearer, direct form of communication. The "divine scriptures" would be updated in crystal clear language by this all-powerful being. It shouldn't need all this defending and explanation if its the unerring word of the almighty, it should just be right there. This type of "thinking" is a good example of what the bible tends to frown upon. Stop that, just believe and thou shalt be saved.

Unless of course Troy, that all knowing creator wanted some effort on your part, to search him out and know him.

What does the Gospel tell us when you boil it down? To "take up our cross to follow him" correct? Thats an illustration of determination, self denial, complete focus, and the willingness to be pained in the process of seeking spiritual revelation.

knowing God, is all of that. definately searching scripture and allowing yrouself to be part of a spritiual community is all of that. recognizing that you "just dont know" is all of that.

I have to disagree with what you say the Bible frowns upon.

I will admit however, that modern (and post modern) day Christendom frowns upon it - and this is where my particular frustration lies, because the church somehow becomes the symbol for that which is biblical, and I think thats an errouneous pursuit and ultimately a frustrating end.

You (personally) know very well Troy - exactly what type of man Saul of Tarsus was. You know he was a wonderful critical thinker. You know his faith caused him tremendous pain as he wrestled with it, and you know he was no hack and was a highly educated and respected man. he did not take the position you are suggesting is biblical, and he wrote a great deal of the New Testament. I feel as if you are confusing the bitter end results of "religion" with that which you see as biblical.

You say an all knowing God would have been so much clearer, much less mysterious.

Why?

Lets look at say.....relationships for an example.

its a huge mystery - th ones that work. Sure there are plenty of books out there. But in the end - to make a long term commitment work it takes tremendous self sacrifice and a great deal of ditch digging just to understand - so that in the end - when you've really built something - you have FAITH in it, and you know how to nurture it, and you know in your heart why it works and all of othe nuances.

But nobody gets there in 6 months, let alone 6 years.

I see the God to man relationship - both thru biblical searchign and thru community based experience - as exactly the same thing.

But I cant prove it and I certainly cant sell it in here.

[know_buddy_kares]

Steven, I understand what Christ represents to you, Dignity, Honor, Honesty, ect... all the good values a person can have on life. However All the good values in life aren't strictly limited to Jesus and Jesus only. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however that is the impression I got from your previous threads here. Buddha stands for that in in a different light, Allah, ect. It's basic values and principles of which every person of any faith can embrace (shit, boondock saints quote!)

The extra attention focused souly on Christian values always having to be mentioned with our form of government really does make me very uncomfortable due with the ridiculously high evangelical wackjob numbers that don't seem to understand the importance of separation of church and state. I'm not talking about all evangelicals, I'm talking about the ones that believe jesus is coming extremely soon, and that we should indulge and rape the planet earth for everything it has, and go against the teachings of tolerance of difference, and let god be the only judge on any mans soul, and hypocritically pass negative judgment on anyone not in their faith. True there's always whack jobs out there, however this number is surprisingly high. They've even admitted to having large enough numbers to sway political votes. What scares me is this isn't some pissed off atheist's libeled blog rant, it's a reality. And though I know you truly do wish to defend your views and beliefs against challengers, and I will never get on your case for doing so. Just understand, a lot of people who take such a high defensive stance to your religious views with the issue of church and state may have a bad idea of Christianity as a whole because of this large group of people who call themselves "Christians". They're breeding a lot of counter resentment and intolerance that is blindly labeling ALL Christians just as badly as they're being intolerant of people with different views and lifestyles than them. And yes, they're tied in with the government so badly that I can't even recognize the separating line between their church, and our government anymore. And like I said, Jesus stands for alot of good as you stated as well, however these political power figures who are using his name don't exactly try to follow in the same footsteps. So I feel Jesus's name is being used unfairly amongst politics to try to manipulate people into this cultlike blending of church and state.

[Destroit]

Steven, I understand what Christ represents to you, Dignity, Honor, Honesty, ect... all the good values a person can have on life. However All the good values in life aren't strictly limited to Jesus and Jesus only. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however that is the impression I got from your previous threads here. Buddha stands for that in in a different light, Allah, ect. It's basic values and principles of which every person of any faith can embrace (shit, boondock saints quote!)

The extra attention focused souly on Christian values always having to be mentioned with our form of government really does make me very uncomfortable due with the ridiculously high evangelical wackjob numbers that don't seem to understand the importance of separation of church and state. I'm not talking about all evangelicals, I'm talking about the ones that believe jesus is coming extremely soon, and that we should indulge and rape the planet earth for everything it has, and go against the teachings of tolerance of difference, and let god be the only judge on any mans soul, and hypocritically pass negative judgment on anyone not in their faith. True there's always whack jobs out there, however this number is surprisingly high. They've even admitted to having large enough numbers to sway political votes. What scares me is this isn't some pissed off atheist's libeled blog rant, it's a reality. And though I know you truly do wish to defend your views and beliefs against challengers, and I will never get on your case for doing so. Just understand, a lot of people who take such a high defensive stance to your religious views with the issue of church and state may have a bad idea of Christianity as a whole because of this large group of people who call themselves "Christians". They're breeding a lot of counter resentment and intolerance that is blindly labeling ALL Christians just as badly as they're being intolerant of people with different views and lifestyles than them. And yes, they're tied in with the government so badly that I can't even recognize the separating line between their church, and our government anymore. And like I said, Jesus stands for alot of good as you stated as well, however these political power figures who are using his name don't exactly try to follow in the same footsteps. So I feel Jesus's name is being used unfairly amongst politics to try to manipulate people into this cultlike blending of church and state.

Well said, I feel the same.

There's crazy whack job Christians who actually want the "end times" as much as Mummadh Ahmadinijad (I know...there's a good chance I butchered that) and those people are just as evil and horrible as he is.

There's Evangelicals that are trying to supply NUKES to Israel, trying to spark a war between Iran and Israel (nuclear war) because they think that if they bomb the planet and destroy everything than Jesus will magically fly out of the sky (because there will be no more people, must be time then, right? He HAS to come then! ) and take us all to heaven.

I feel for my two cents, that as a Christian I think Revelations was the biggest crock of shit ever put in the bible. It was written MASSIVELY long after Christ even died as a scare tactic into getting people to join the church. As a Christian I am almost offended by it, really, and to think people this day and age buy into it is sad...

In my beliefs, when we die we go to heaven...you know right then and there. Not everyone rises out of the ground as a CORPSE and flies up into the air with Jesus (because you know, people from 1,000s even 100s of years ago still have a corpse still kicking around, right? Note the sarcasm people!). As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if humanity will EVER end, and I see no problem with that. If it does happen, it will be when the sun explodes in a few 100,000 years and engulfs us all, Jesus will have nothing to do with it. He came, He solved, He conquered and went home. His physical job is done here, imo.