War and Peace in the middle east

[CandyQuackenbush]

Either you are lying to me, or I am not conveying my point in an adequate manner, Candy. Either option saddens me.

I'm lying to you, because everything you've tried to make as a point, has made no sence whatsoever.

[ttogreh]

Chernobyl, ideas are only as strong as the commitment to them. A marketplace is an idea... the equitable exchange of goods and services... as much as it is in fact a physical place to exchange goods and services.

If people do not accept the legitimacy of violence in the face of free commerce, a bomber can blow himself up, and kill scores of people, and the market can be reopened in a few days, and the support network, the people that sent the bomber off to kill the market goers, can be exposed and destroyed.

Security is worthless without opportunity. Opportunity is worthless without security.

[odims_sphere]

***Split off due to drifting topic***

[Fierce Critter]

(copy/paste my response in the other thread)

If people do not accept the legitimacy of violence in the face of free commerce, a bomber can blow himself up, and kill scores of people, and the market can be reopened in a few days, and the support network, the people that sent the bomber off to kill the market goers, can be exposed and destroyed.

Yeah, but in the countries we're discussing, there will be a new bomber to kill more scores of people, ad-infinitum.

It's been going on for thousands of years. The idea keeps going strong, but the same result keeps happening over and over.

So I still don't see your point.

[odims_sphere]

***sorry about missing one FC, and thank you for making the correction***

[boshy]

I'm lying to you, because everything you've tried to make as a point, has made no sence whatsoever.

ditto

[ttogreh]

Fierce, first off, I find it highly unlikely that marketplaces were being blown up thousands of years ago. Indeed, there may have been bands of marauders that attacked and killed entire marketplaces, but only modern chemistry has allowed the phenomenon of the suicide bomber.

But that is a nit pick.

The Egyptian civilization existed for thousands of years. The Persian empire endured for five hundred years before Christ and six hundred years after he was long gone. The north African caliphates knew of the planets and earth's relation to the sun generations before Galileo.

Modern events have brought us to where we are now, Fierce. We can use modern tools to fix them.

[odims_sphere]

Fierce, first off, I find it highly unlikely that marketplaces were being blown up thousands of years ago. Indeed, there may have been bands of marauders that attacked and killed entire marketplaces, but only modern chemistry has allowed the phenomenon of the suicide bomber.

But that is a nit pick.

The Egyptian civilization existed for thousands of years. The Persian empire endured for five hundred years before Christ and six hundred years after he was long gone. The north African caliphates knew of the planets and earth's relation to the sun generations before Galileo.

Modern events have brought us to where we are now, Fierce. We can use modern tools to fix them.

I think we both know she didn't mean literally that people were using explosives.

[Steven]

As is the usual case, I am in the minority when it comes to intellectual points of view. I have grown quite accustomed to this situation, and have learned a few things on my life's journey to help me cope with this.

Gaf and Steven, you are both emotionally wedded to your points of view. I won't ever be able to convince you to think critically about the points I bring up, because, well, I am the one bringing them up, and you have already made your minds up about what exactly I am.

However, in the miasma of ideology and cynicism that has sprouted from your fingertips, Steven, I would like to address one point you have alluded to about me. You really need to stay away from the logical fallacies of the excluded middle, the straw man, and in this case, the ad hominem.

Of course, you won't, because I am the one giving the advice, and well, why listen to someone like me, right?

While I was 12 to 14, my family was breaking up. As could be expected, I was a little down. I was prescribed the psychoactive drug known as "prozac". When things calmed down, wa-hey... I started feeling better, and I slowly was weaned off of this drug.

When I was about to graduate from high school, I decided to join the Navy. I was ready to sign, but unfortunately, due to two years of swallowing green and white pills, I was rejected from serving my nation. It was the darkest point in my young life up to that point. I could not serve the nation that had given me so much, through no direct fault of my own.

Now, several years later, a self-assured man who WAS able to serve his nation has made an assumption about my willingness to stand up and put my life in harm's way, so that others will not need to. He has reminded me of my inadequacy as a citizen, and of the hurt and pain that I went through when I could not give back to my country.

Thank you, Steven. Thank you so much for exposing the motivations of your point of view to all of us, and helping me to revisit one of the most painful memories of my life. Thank you for giving me a legitimate reason to resent you.

Now, Candy... the hell of it is, we are both right. Economic opportunity, education, and fair trade means nothing without a secure environment. I was focusing on one side of the same coin, and you were focusing on the obverse. Once again, I sincerely thank you for your military service.

your serious about all of this? You want to do this with ME? You know I'll tell you exactly whats on my mind....

First: you may find your in the minority due to your dismissive and elevated style of delivery, that may be worth a ponder or two, its up to you.

2nd: everyone on earth is emotionally wedded to their points of voew, if you were not - you'd stop flashing your credentials at me. (Careful....I'm a nitty gritty kind of uneducated guy). If you research me here you'll find plenty of my own fuckups and mini wars with other DGN'rs. ANd you'll also find points of reconcilliation where its been appropriate to do so, especially if somethign was said to me that humbled me. Just because somethign comes from "you"....does not set anything in concrete. But right now, yes we are smack dab in the middle of it.

3rd: I'd listen to you more if you were a little more gracious and a little less condescending....something Ive been (rightly) accused of in here as well. I dont have a target with your name on it dude. I just dont like your style right now, although I DO acknowledge your intelligence and even your talent for writing.

4th: You have either served or you have not. You have not. Consider that - when you address those who HAVE, regardless of your former boo hoo. I can swap every shitty ugly story on earth and then some with the best of them Jack - and so fucking what? STILL I served. It does not make me better - but I do beleive I have a perspective that you cannot have based on that experience. And Candy and Odims have a much better perspective than I do. I dont fucking care about what you WANTED to do - I care about what you HAVE done. That includes here on home turf too, I have been a soldier here just as much as when I did my tour. I dont talk shit from the outside edge of saftey, if something is worth it to me then I get involved and take the hits that come with it.

5th: legit or not - resent for me is your right to choose, as is your right to choose to consider what an ahole like me may have to say, and why I've addressed you the way I have. Get to the source and consider that....I may even see something worthy in you and that's why you've got my attention.

[Fierce Critter]

Fierce, first off, I find it highly unlikely that marketplaces were being blown up thousands of years ago. Indeed, there may have been bands of marauders that attacked and killed entire marketplaces, but only modern chemistry has allowed the phenomenon of the suicide bomber.

But that is a nit pick.

The Egyptian civilization existed for thousands of years. The Persian empire endured for five hundred years before Christ and six hundred years after he was long gone. The north African caliphates knew of the planets and earth's relation to the sun generations before Galileo.

Modern events have brought us to where we are now, Fierce. We can use modern tools to fix them.

Why do you come off as being hopelessly optimistic, and despite your use of intelligent language, naively unrealistic?

The nitpick is absurd. There has been violence of some kind being perpetrated in the middle East for thousands of years. These people have been fighting since long before gun powder, modern ballistics, etc. They will continue to find "marketplaces" to destroy in one way or another as they have throughout history. From balled fists to thrown rocks to scimitars to slings to guns to.... and so on. It's been going on and will continue to go on.

Having some kind of weird faith in "the marketplace as an idea" isn't going to stop violence. I still don't understand what in the world you think can be done by intellectualizing raw emotional & philosophical disagreement turned into violence.

[ttogreh]

It was a mild tongue-in-cheek reminder to Fierce to choose her wording carefully, Odim, and you know it.

[Steven]

I think we both know she didn't mean literally that people were using explosives.

thats exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

[odims_sphere]

It was a mild tongue-in-cheek reminder to Fierce to choose her wording carefully, Odim, and you know it.

My DGN name is odims_sphere, just a friendly tounge-in-cheek reminder. you should choose your wording carefully.

See how absurd it is?

[ttogreh]

Fierce, the only response that ever works against raw emotional and philosophical disagreements is cold, hard logic from a position of strength. A man can swear up and down that the sky is red. If he truly believes that the sky is red, I can't convince him otherwise. However, I can calmly work with people that agree with me that the color of the sky is blue, and if he uses violence to make us say something we don't believe in...

We can kill him.

Logic and strength are the only final arbiters of reality, Fierce. You cannot have security without opportunity, and you cannot have opportunity without security.

[odims_sphere]

I guess I realized three things while I was in Iraq

1. Talking is going to go absolutly no good against the millitant extremeists.

2. Force is the only way to manage the millitant extremeists

3. We will never win the "war" on terror. All we can hope for is to minimize it's extent, or localize it somehow. Which is exactly what we've done. They're so focused on killing americans in Iraq that they don't have time to kill civillians here. As a soldier that is my job, to die for you.

I know exactly when I realized all of this too. There was an area of Iraq where we has a standing SOP to not stop under any circumstances. The reason for it was the enemy TTP was to strap bombs to children and send them out in front of a convoy to get it to stop, then detonate the child along with a daisy chain of IED's along the length of the convoy. How do you combat that mentality? Not with words and not with bullets. The best you can hope for is to minimize it.

[CandyQuackenbush]

I cannot believe that this is actually a thread. Seriously.

[ttogreh]

Odim, Number one, and number two, you are right on. As for number three... sadly, you are mistaken. It is a logical fallacy, "fight them over there, so we won't have to fight them over here"... and I will never be able to convince you as such.

We have to realize that two oceans and half a world are meaningless in terms of buffers against militant extremism. Do you have any idea how many containers on cargo ships are screened before they make it into the US? Do you have any idea how much nuclear material has been "misplaced" in the former Soviet Union?

The answers are not enough, and too much.

I am not a soldier, but I know for a fact that militant extremism is only as powerful as WE make it out to be. We can take steps to actually secure our borders, and minimize the agitation that breeds extremism. A child being run over by a military convoy... does not exactly engender feelings of goodwill amongst the general population.

[CandyQuackenbush]

Odim, Number one, and number two, you are right on. As for number three... sadly, you are mistaken. It is a logical fallacy, "fight them over there, so we won't have to fight them over here"... and I will never be able to convince you as such.

It's not "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here." They started the attacks on us.

I am not a soldier, but I know for a fact that militant extremism is only as powerful as WE make it out to be. We can take steps to actually secure our borders, and minimize the agitation that breeds extremism. A child being run over by a military convoy... does not exactly engender feelings of goodwill amongst the general population.

The Military is only as strong as the brave people that serve make it out to be.

And for when a "child gets ran over by a covoy" is completely out of our control. Those kids run out into the street BEGGING us for our MRE's and water.

They know that they cannot come up to our convoys. They get off the streets for us, and move aways 100 meters away, or we use our E.O.F's.

[odims_sphere]

A child being run over by a military convoy... does not exactly engender feelings of goodwill amongst the general population.

No it doesn't, not at all and it tore soldiers apart who were forced to do it, However it is reality.

If you think you can change the mind of people who are willing to stap bombs to their children and blow them up for what they believe with nuance and subtlety, that's where you're delusional. Nothing is going to change their minds.

And as far as the over there, or over here debate, I don't seem to be hearing about to many camel carcasses exploding over here. Not really a lot of planes flying into buildings recently. Not to many people walking into great lakes crossing and just exploding.

We're never going to catch them all, no matter how much security we have I'll agree with you there, but why would they spend all the money, and resources to come over here when its so much easier and more conveniant to kill us over there?

[ttogreh]

I will not disparage the wisdom of military standard operating procedure. However, as wise as it is, there is a cost to it. We have to do our best to minimize that cost.

It's a razor's edge, finding the best way to interact with a community while at the same time securing that community from an enemy unafraid of death. I don't know that way. However, I do know that the military is best used to kill people and break things.

In Afghanistan, Kandahar fell in a month. In Iraq, the country was under full allied military control in a month and ten days.

The military does its job, and does it well. However, if you do not couple the military with a policy that empowers the local population and ensures its security...

We end up with an internet discussion going on ad infinitum.

[Destroit]

No it doesn't, not at all and it tore soldiers apart who were forced to do it, However it is reality.

If you think you can change the mind of people who are willing to stap bombs to their children and blow them up for what they believe with nuance and subtlety, that's where you're delusional. Nothing is going to change their minds.

And as far as the over there, or over here debate, I don't seem to be hearing about to many camel carcasses exploding over here. Not really a lot of planes flying into buildings recently. Not to many people walking into great lakes crossing and just exploding.

We're never going to catch them all, no matter how much security we have I'll agree with you there, but why would they spend all the money, and resources to come over here when its so much easier and more conveniant to kill us over there?

Exactly, there is nothing that can change those people's minds except getting them when they're young and trying to teach them otherwise.

My psych teacher taught us that all of your morals and all of your value system is generally instilled by the age of 12. Talking to militant extremist ADULTS who are set in their ways is a waste of good breath, the world is not pretty, it's definately mouse eat dog out there. Yeah, I said mouse eat dog just because a lot of the time the battle is unfair and uneven, just like this one, so yes that was intentional.

It's a very tough fight we're in but sitting down and asking them to tea and crumpets won't do shit, I'm sorry. The only way to fight this is physically until we can fight it culturally with education. There's a good reason many countries run by dictatorships are KEPT from all forms of media coming from outside that country. If the people in that country get hold of it, those leaders fear that they'll be able to educate themselves on how great it is in the rest of the world compared to there and either escape or revolt.

In this instance I see both happening. I see the Middle East becoming a better situation every day in so many ways. Sometimes I'm even concerned to see that some of our Americans are so caught up in anti-government anti-Bush whatever to actually stop and smell the roses. We've liberated places like Afghanistan and Iraq (not fully, but these things don't happen overnight) and I got to watch a very satisfying video on YouTube of a horrible HORRIBLE man being hung: Saddam.

I owe this all to people like Candy and Odims and the rest of the troops.

The fact also, that they ARE fighting over there and we are keeping our security obviously higher than certain European countries that have already seen casualties gives me hope for the future. The fact that we haven't been physically hit since 9/11 gives me great faith in our country and our soldiers.

As for a policy that empowers the local community and creates security? Creates security? Why else would our soldiers be over there? We're trying to be a temp secuirty until they CAN stabilize on their own. That's why when someone says "we need to get out of Iraq - NOW!" I just want to hit them. Why would you build the foundation of a house, so to speak, and then walk away without actually building the house on it? Does not make sense...

[ttogreh]

Chernobyl, there are soldiers, and then there are soldiers. An M1A1 Abrams tank can pretty much do whatever the hell it wants. A corporal that can speak Farsi can do a hell of a lot more damage to militant extremism, however.

We went to war with the army we had. The army we had kicked the ever loving snot out of the entrenched power structure in both countries... IN... A... MONTH.

The army we have has not yet completed the task of creating a relatively safe environment and economic equity in five years.

THAT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE SOLDIERS ON THE GROUND. Abysmal, corrupt, downright evil military policy wrought by fools in leather seats thousands of miles away has cost us years, YEARS of opportunity.

[ttogreh]

You know, it's been a few months since I have done this. I fear I might be out of practice. Oh, well... here goes.

your serious about all of this? You want to do this with ME? You know I'll tell you exactly whats on my mind....

First: you may find your in the minority due to your dismissive and elevated style of delivery, that may be worth a ponder or two, its up to you.

I have spent years refining my dismissive and elevated style of delivery, thank you very much. It is free of grammatical errors, logical fallacies, and humor is few and far between. I stand by my chosen style of discourse. The messenger is not the point.

2nd: everyone on earth is emotionally wedded to their points of voew, if you were not - you'd stop flashing your credentials at me. (Careful....I'm a nitty gritty kind of uneducated guy). If you research me here you'll find plenty of my own fuckups and mini wars with other DGN'rs. ANd you'll also find points of reconcilliation where its been appropriate to do so, especially if somethign was said to me that humbled me. Just because somethign comes from "you"....does not set anything in concrete. But right now, yes we are smack dab in the middle of it.

Oh, dear. Not every one is emotionally wedded to their ideas. Some folks, like me, are intellectually wedded to them. A minor but vital distinction. When I am presented with information that counteracts my point of view... I can incorporate the new information, and move on. When information that counteracts your world view is presented to you... either your world view has been lying to you, or the new information is a lie.

As for your prior spats, I care very little to know that you can reconcile with other people. I only care as to whether or not you can reconcile with me... and I am not yet convinced that you can.

3rd: I'd listen to you more if you were a little more gracious and a little less condescending....something Ive been (rightly) accused of in here as well. I dont have a target with your name on it dude. I just dont like your style right now, although I DO acknowledge your intelligence and even your talent for writing.

I appreciate your willingness to understand the difference between style and substance. I am highly unlikely to change my style.

4th: You have either served or you have not. You have not. Consider that - when you address those who HAVE, regardless of your former boo hoo. I can swap every shitty ugly story on earth and then some with the best of them Jack - and so fucking what? STILL I served. It does not make me better - but I do beleive I have a perspective that you cannot have based on that experience. And Candy and Odims have a much better perspective than I do. I dont fucking care about what you WANTED to do - I care about what you HAVE done. That includes here on home turf too, I have been a soldier here just as much as when I did my tour. I dont talk shit from the outside edge of saftey, if something is worth it to me then I get involved and take the hits that come with it.

See, this just pisses me off. A soldier is a soldier, a citizen willing to put himself into harm's way is still just a citizen. I could have become a policeman, a firefighter... I haven't. I have stood up for what I believe in, however. Maybe in a little while I will volunteer to put myself in a position of danger for others. All I know is, right now, a man decided I was a liberal weenie that disparaged the efforts of the military while at the same time would never have the wherewithal to serve.

He just made assumptions, and sounded off.

5th: legit or not - resent for me is your right to choose, as is your right to choose to consider what an ahole like me may have to say, and why I've addressed you the way I have. Get to the source and consider that....I may even see something worthy in you and that's why you've got my attention.

See, here you go again. The messenger is not the point. Bring to this discussion some kind of treatise free of logical fallacies, ad hominems, straw men, and irrelevant anecdotes, and maybe I won't be so "dismissive and elevated"...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

There are so many things I want to address.

In no order...

1. You clearly have not read Moore. Utopia was modeled after Plato's Republic. Utopia, in modern usage, has come to mean "perfect society"

2. You need people to have ideas. If you kill all the people, the idea dies.

3. If you have had to defend your ideas for years on the net... has the thought ever crossed your mind you could be wrong?

4. You have absolutely no understanding of Tactics and the use of Power.

5. You also have no understanding of the the thousands of years of violence in the middle east. The Persian empire existed so long because they killed and enslaved everyone that did not submit. Islam is a relativly new idea in the world.

5. They don't speak Farsi in Iraq, except for a small minority. They speak Farsi in Iran.

[ttogreh]

Your last point is a nit pick, and you are convinced of your own superiority. I doubt anything I say to you will ever be worth my time.