Innocence/Purety/Soul? What are they

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

and the judgement of what is innocent, and what is not....thats a WHOLE other thread....

Innocence is innocence...pure of soul.

Everyone over analyzes the simplest concepts now a days...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Innocence is innocence...pure of soul.

Everyone over analyzes the simplest concepts now a days...

and according to some...there is not such thing as "pure of soul", because you are tainted as a nature....I don't agree with that...but it IS out there.

[phee]

Innocence is innocence...pure of soul.

Everyone over analyzes the simplest concepts now a days...

Defining an abstract with two more abstracts...

"Soul" What is it?

"Pure" What is it in regards to soul?

One way to look at pure of soul is this:

But is he innocent too?

(Not mocking, just making the point that language is very ambiguous and the "simple" definition can actually make something more confusing....)

[Troy Spiral (13)]

It sounds strange to question something like that when we "know" what terms mean. "What the hell do you mean what is "innocence?" Isn't it obvious??"

But, like phee mentions; things like "soul" and "purity" are themselves very hard to define... or we lets say "agree on what they mean". So it gets very confusing for some people. Also many people don't feel these ideas actually exist and are just mental constructs, which makes it even more complicated. Its easy to see how people can get confused as to what things like that mean.

I (think) i know what you mean, so we would agree/understand each other right away. But a lot of people have different definitions for different words.

The confusion actually makes it more interesting in some sense.

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

It sounds strange to question something like that when we "know" what terms mean. "What the hell do you mean what is "innocence?" Isn't it obvious??"

But, like phee mentions; things like "soul" and "purity" are themselves very hard to define... or we lets say "agree on what they mean". So it gets very confusing for some people. Also many people don't feel these ideas actually exist and are just mental constructs, which makes it even more complicated. Its easy to see how people can get confused as to what things like that mean.

I (think) i know what you mean, so we would agree/understand each other right away. But a lot of people have different definitions for different words.

The confusion actually makes it more interesting in some sense.

It is very obvious. Thats the message I am trying to project.

I know people have different concepts of the soul and is affiliation with purity. But I mean all of this in raw terms...

The soul = Pure human energy that is neither created nor destroyed and is the essence of what is glorious in nature,as nature is a very spiritual mechanism, regardless of its some time harsh ways. And no, nothing in nature is naturally tainted, only very confused humans or inconsiderate ones can taint what is in nature, but can never fully damage it, nature finds a way to adapt. The soul also means eternity. The vastness of what we are as entities.

Purity = well, pureness, wholeness, the necessary knowledge that leads us to amazing things. Cleanness of the soul.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

It is very obvious. Thats the message I am trying to project.

I know people have different concepts of the soul and is affiliation with purity. But I mean all of this in raw terms...

The soul = Pure human energy that is neither created nor destroyed and is the essence of what is glorious in nature,as nature is a very spiritual mechanism, regardless of its some time harsh ways. And no, nothing in nature is naturally tainted, only very confused humans or inconsiderate ones can taint what is in nature, but can never fully damage it, nature finds a way to adapt. The soul also means eternity. The vastness of what we are as entities.

Purity = well, pureness, wholeness, the necessary knowledge that leads us to amazing things. Cleanness of the soul.

and I ask you...who is pure....everyone has their flaws.

I will use the Christian-based belief that everyone is born with Origional Sin....everyone is born with a taint....in that belief...then none of us are innocent and pure, are we???

again...I don't agree with it....I don't agree with the view that we have to come into the world already coated in the sins and mistakes of our ancestors....thats bullshyt....I believe that we are neutral by nature....clean until stained....that we have an ULTIMATE ability to have a choice....not that it's dictated by the "invisible man".

[Rev.Reverence]

and I ask you...who is pure....everyone has their flaws.

I will use the Christian-based belief that everyone is born with Origional Sin....everyone is born with a taint....in that belief...then none of us are innocent and pure, are we???

again...I don't agree with it....I don't agree with the view that we have to come into the world already coated in the sins and mistakes of our ancestors....thats bullshyt....I believe that we are neutral by nature....clean until stained....that we have an ULTIMATE ability to have a choice....not that it's dictated by the "invisible man".

I could argue that we are all pure...

Try not being you...you will fail...therefor...you are purely YOU.

This is why I can trust nearly anyone...I can trust them to be them...

..this is why I do not like being amongst the populous...I do not know THEM.

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

and I ask you...who is pure....everyone has their flaws.

I will use the Christian-based belief that everyone is born with Origional Sin....everyone is born with a taint....in that belief...then none of us are innocent and pure, are we???

again...I don't agree with it....I don't agree with the view that we have to come into the world already coated in the sins and mistakes of our ancestors....thats bullshyt....I believe that we are neutral by nature....clean until stained....that we have an ULTIMATE ability to have a choice....not that it's dictated by the "invisible man".

When I say purity, again its simply as put : The unborn, newborns, infants and young children and people who are positive regardless of certain flaws. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Why would you believe in Christianity's view on original sin? when they're book is nothing but legends and lies. And, is so outdated its ridiculous.

Thats such a cliche` concept, sorry.

And invisible man? Are you trying to insinuate that I believe in God? Or a creator for that matter?

Well, I don't. We are neither created nor destroyed.

and flaws aren't a blemish on purity, by purity I mean someone who does positive things to other humans and all living things and has a respect for life. THERE, thats what I meant by purity.

You can have a pure soul, and have flaws, thats the beauty in being human.

Don't get so worked up. And, respect my beliefs...you don't have to get all holy roller on me or anyone else. Its a discussion, not an argument.

Also, I believe that when we die and leave these bodies behind, we are nothing but positive energy that regains all the knowledge, and are nothing short of perfect entities. Then, our souls are fully PURE (in death, the afterlife).

[know_buddy_kares]

Well said, it is that simple no matter what religeon you can be... just have good intentions and good hopes.. don't let the negatives of life corrupt you. Yeah you can learn lessons from them and be careful from then on, that's the idea, to wean away from ignorance... but that's not innocents. Now if i want to hurt someone for revenge or something like that.. that would corrupt my soul of its innocence. I think i understand where you're coming from hun.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

It is very obvious. Thats the message I am trying to project.

I know people have different concepts of the soul and is affiliation with purity. But I mean all of this in raw terms...

The soul = Pure human energy that is neither created nor destroyed and is the essence of what is glorious in nature,as nature is a very spiritual mechanism, regardless of its some time harsh ways. And no, nothing in nature is naturally tainted, only very confused humans or inconsiderate ones can taint what is in nature, but can never fully damage it, nature finds a way to adapt. The soul also means eternity. The vastness of what we are as entities.

Purity = well, pureness, wholeness, the necessary knowledge that leads us to amazing things. Cleanness of the soul.

I like the discussion. I would like things to be easy. But we are using language which (like everything) is "imperfect". To get closer to the truth, we tend to need to realize we just don't know, but can try to find the approximate and keep on trying to get more and more clear on things. Things are rarely absolute, if ever, unfortunately. Its good to try and keep our minds open to the idea that we might be wrong, about anything, regardless of the subject. I know I'm wrong about things every hour every day. You may be totally right about this. I don't really have any "argument" to add, just some commentary.

The idea of what a "soul" is varies from culture to culture and changes depending on who you talk to or what or who you read there is no underlying "simple version" anywhere that I'm aware of that is well demonstrated. Its mostly based on "faith" or "opinion" so what the raw "essence" of a soul is could be anyone's guess. Having studied such concepts since i was a young teenager (and continue to study them as one of my key areas of Inquiry) its a subject that definitely has a lot of gray area.

Purity in this context i assume you mean to be "good" but , pure doesn't necessarily have anything good or bad about it, again with these types of terms it gets very difficult to define. If it were obvious there would be no need for commentary. Anything that tends toward the spiritual / ethical / ideological is open for debate and usually not particularly clear one way or the other.

How we "feel" about something isn't always the best measure of truth. A better choice is to realize we just don't really know as yet, and may never know, but keep trying to get closer to it regardless. This is the nature of being open minded, that is, open to the idea that our current beliefs are not necessarily correct and are open to future, new information.

It can be very frustrating to not have the clarity we'd like about things. But its better than making assumptions about normative or empirical certainty when there isn't any to be had.

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

I like the discussion. I would like things to be easy. But we are using language which (like everything) is "imperfect". To get closer to the truth, we tend to need to realize we just don't know, but can try to find the approximate and keep on trying to get more and more clear on things. Things are rarely absolute, if ever, unfortunately. Its good to try and keep our minds open to the idea that we might be wrong, about anything, regardless of the subject. I know I'm wrong about things every hour every day. You may be totally right about this. I don't really have any "argument" to add, just some commentary.

The idea of what a "soul" is varies from culture to culture and changes depending on who you talk to or what or who you read there is no underlying "simple version" anywhere that I'm aware of that is well demonstrated. Its mostly based on "faith" or "opinion" so what the raw "essence" of a soul is could be anyone's guess. Having studied such concepts since i was a young teenager (and continue to study them as one of my key areas of Inquiry) its a subject that definitely has a lot of gray area.

Purity in this context i assume you mean to be "good" but , pure doesn't necessarily have anything good or bad about it, again with these types of terms it gets very difficult to define. If it were obvious there would be no need for commentary. Anything that tends toward the spiritual / ethical / ideological is open for debate and usually not particularly clear one way or the other.

How we "feel" about something isn't always the best measure of truth. A better choice is to realize we just don't really know as yet, and may never know, but keep trying to get closer to it regardless. This is the nature of being open minded, that is, open to the idea that our current beliefs are not necessarily correct and are open to future, new information.

It can be very frustrating to not have the clarity we'd like about things. But its better than making assumptions about normative or empirical certainty when there isn't any to be had.

I agree, anything to do with spirituality is opinionated & touchy. I am fine with that, cause the variation of the concepts, of oh, lets say the human soul is fascinating to me. I love hearing and reading different views on what people think the human soul, or souls in general to be.

To me, its our eternal life force. But thats just my take on it. How I feel. No one needs to accept that. I don't expect that of anyone.

I also want to further this by saying, I am not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong, no...what I am saying is that I speak my mind from common sense, and love to view things in a very positive way, life is better when you give it alot of credit for being a life giving, wonderful experience and try to get passed what is negative about life.

Sure, I have had horrible things happen to me in my life, I have seen the worst sides of life possible : sickness and death of many loved ones (yes I have lost many at an early age), people abusing people, etc. but I don't dwell on these things and say that all of humanity is a big fuck up and that nature is cruel. No. Life is sweeter when you go to the tree of knowledge, pick its fruit and find that it tastes so sweet, rather than not taking the chance to pick and eat and just say the fruit is poison and rotten just because you heard it is.

So, to summarize this, as it branched off into another topic slightly, I like complexity, cause it keeps you thinking and all, sharpens the psyche, but I am saying all this in all simplicity:

****By purity, innocence, whatever you want to call it, all I am saying is that I don't believe in harming things that wouldn't harm you out of sport or maliciousness.

I think you all pretty much got mixed up when I said innocence and all that, I mean it in a different, more easier concept.

[Rev.Reverence]

I agree, anything to do with spirituality is opinionated & touchy. I am fine with that, cause the variation of the concepts, of oh, lets say the human soul is fascinating to me. I love hearing and reading different views on what people think the human soul, or souls in general to be.

To me, its our eternal life force. But thats just my take on it. How I feel. No one needs to accept that. I don't expect that of anyone.

I also want to further this by saying, I am not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong, no...what I am saying is that I speak my mind from common sense, and love to view things in a very positive way, life is better when you give it alot of credit for being a life giving, wonderful experience and try to get passed what is negative about life.

Sure, I have had horrible things happen to me in my life, I have seen the worst sides of life possible : sickness and death of many loved ones (yes I have lost many at an early age), people abusing people, etc. but I don't dwell on these things and say that all of humanity is a big fuck up and that nature is cruel. No. Life is sweeter when you go to the tree of knowledge, pick its fruit and find that it tastes so sweet, rather than not taking the chance to pick and eat and just say the fruit is poison and rotten just because you heard it is.

So, to summarize this, as it branched off into another topic slightly, I like complexity, cause it keeps you thinking and all, sharpens the psyche, but I am saying all this in all simplicity:

****By purity, innocence, whatever you want to call it, all I am saying is that I don't believe in harming things that wouldn't harm you out of sport or maliciousness.

I think you all pretty much got mixed up when I said innocence and all that, I mean it in a different, more easier concept.

****I dig it except one fuzzy spot.

I would say a person can sully their Innoccence, and still remain Purely them...OR they can also loose their purity and remain Innocent...OR they can loose them both...

..but are "Purity" and "Innocence" the same thing to you?

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

****I dig it except one fuzzy spot.

I would say a person can sully their Innoccence, and still remain Purely them...OR they can also loose their purity and remain Innocent...OR they can loose them both...

..but are "Purity" and "Innocence" the same thing to you?

No you are still confused lol...and here's why :

I am still JUST speaking of simple innocence and purity. Whom ever and whatever is in a peaceful position.

Purity and Innocence can be the same or slightly different depending on how they are used in a subject.

Purity is benevolence and, harmonious in nature.

Innocence is related to that in the fact that it is of something that is not provoking something or someone in a harming way.

[know_buddy_kares]

No you are still confused lol...and here's why :

I am still JUST speaking of simple innocence and purity. Whom ever and whatever is in a peaceful position.

Purity and Innocence can be the same or slightly different depending on how they are used in a subject.

Purity is benevolence and, harmonious in nature.

Innocence is related to that in the fact that it is of something that is not provoking something or someone in a harming way.

And this is one of the bigger reasons what got me attracted to this wonderful woman to begin with :D

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

When I say purity, again its simply as put : The unborn, newborns, infants and young children and people who are positive regardless of certain flaws. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Why would you believe in Christianity's view on original sin? when they're book is nothing but legends and lies. And, is so outdated its ridiculous.

Thats such a cliche` concept, sorry.

Actually...I never stated that I BELIEVE in that view....I stated that I was going to USE that view as an example on one of the MANY views on purity and souls.

And invisible man? Are you trying to insinuate that I believe in God? Or a creator for that matter?

Well, I don't. We are neither created nor destroyed.

I'm not sure where in my post you read that I was insinuating that you believe in any kind of higher beings.

and flaws aren't a blemish on purity, by purity I mean someone who does positive things to other humans and all living things and has a respect for life. THERE, thats what I meant by purity.

You can have a pure soul, and have flaws, thats the beauty in being human.

that would depend on your opinion and view of the subject...now wouldn't it??

Don't get so worked up. And, respect my beliefs...you don't have to get all holy roller on me or anyone else. Its a discussion, not an argument.

I never got "holy roller" on anyone...and please....don't insult someone because of where they are in their beliefs and faith. I respected your beliefs, but if seems you don't respect anyone elses, especially if someone brings up a Christian-based viewpoint. I bring up a different belief then what you have, using a Christian-based viewpoint, and you attack it like I am attack you. It seems like you have had bad run-ins with Christian-based views and followers before. I am not one of those, though I used to be.

I was raised Catholic, but left that belief system awhile ago, turning to discover my own truths. I share very little in similar views with normal Catholics, and view most of them as being raised in a very snobbish and close-minded way.

lol....I'm the guy who started the "murder as an art" & "necessary evils" threads....I don't think I would be considered very "Christian-based" on my views after that.

Also, I believe that when we die and leave these bodies behind, we are nothing but positive energy that regains all the knowledge, and are nothing short of perfect entities. Then, our souls are fully PURE (in death, the afterlife).

and other people and religions don't share that...I don't truely understand why you are so upset about that.

[Rev.Reverence]

No you are still confused lol...and here's why :

I am still JUST speaking of simple innocence and purity. Whom ever and whatever is in a peaceful position.

Purity and Innocence can be the same or slightly different depending on how they are used in a subject.

Purity is benevolence and, harmonious in nature.

Innocence is related to that in the fact that it is of something that is not provoking something or someone in a harming way.

I see.

But I am not confused. Just wanted a bit of clarification. I did not want to miss out on your view.

We may not see it exactly the same......but that is totally cool with me..

...(shit the dictionary defines purity using the word innocent-but not the other way around)..

..so it is down to a talk on personal views...

..I like sharing info like this...

...IF ONLY MORE PEOPLE WERE TALKIN' ABOUT THIS WITH US!!!

..we could get more points of view to broaden our eyes sight further!

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I see.

But I am not confused. Just wanted a bit of clarification. I did not want to miss out on your view.

We may not see it exactly the same......but that is totally cool with me..

...(shit the dictionary defines purity using the word innocent-but not the other way around)..

..so it is down to a talk on personal views...

..I like sharing info like this...

...IF ONLY MORE PEOPLE WERE TALKIN' ABOUT THIS WITH US!!!

..we could get more points of view to broaden our eyes sight further!

<----counts as a person.....sometimes.....

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

I see.

But I am not confused. Just wanted a bit of clarification. I did not want to miss out on your view.

We may not see it exactly the same......but that is totally cool with me..

...(shit the dictionary defines purity using the word innocent-but not the other way around)..

..so it is down to a talk on personal views...

..I like sharing info like this...

...IF ONLY MORE PEOPLE WERE TALKIN' ABOUT THIS WITH US!!!

..we could get more points of view to broaden our eyes sight further!

Sweet.

The dictionary is a screwy book.

[Rev.Reverence]

<----counts as a person.....sometimes.....

NOT this time...

I kid...I meant more than had already posted..

[phee]

Purety/Malice/Innocence from whos perspective though?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Wouldn't purity be more like... Absent of outside influence or taint. I'm not sure where you get that something "pure" is somehow benevolent and harmonious. I'm not saying it can't be,q just not really willing to say that be default that something "pure" is benevolent and harmonious.

and innocence is really just lack of any experience at all, be it good or bad experience. It's a nice way of saying someone is ignorant of life.

To me.. someone who is "Pure and Innocent" is someone who has had no contact with anything outside their own head.

It's an unobtainable state once you have thought and awareness. Even if somehow you were conceived in a void... you would be aware that you are other than the void... you have then "touched" that void and are no longer "pure" because if be aware of something is to interact with it and you cant interact with something, on any level, without both you and it changing. Which means not only are you not "pure" anymore... you are no longer innocent because you are guilty of changing the void and your self.... you have experience.

[phee]

Wouldn't purity be more like... Absent of outside influence or taint. I'm not sure where you get that something "pure" is somehow benevolent and harmonious. I'm not saying it can't be,q just not really willing to say that be default that something "pure" is benevolent and harmonious.

and innocence is really just lack of any experience at all, be it good or bad experience. It's a nice way of saying someone is ignorant of life.

To me.. someone who is "Pure and Innocent" is someone who has had no contact with anything outside their own head.

It's an unobtainable state once you have thought and awareness. Even if somehow you were conceived in a void... you would be aware that you are other than the void... you have then "touched" that void and are no longer "pure" because if be aware of something is to interact with it and you cant interact with something, on any level, without both you and it changing. Which means not only are you not "pure" anymore... you are no longer innocent because you are guilty of changing the void and your self.... you have experience.

Good post!

Words like Pure can be used in so many different frame works... Pure Evil, Pure Corruption, Pure Filth... and innocence... that word to... One could say "I am pure evil and innocent of commiting any good deeds"

The English language is so fluid... sometimes its hard to get to the root of things.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

So, to summarize this, as it branched off into another topic slightly, I like complexity, cause it keeps you thinking and all, sharpens the psyche, but I am saying all this in all simplicity:

****By purity, innocence, whatever you want to call it, all I am saying is that I don't believe in harming things that wouldn't harm you out of sport or maliciousness.

I think you all pretty much got mixed up when I said innocence and all that, I mean it in a different, more easier concept.

Good post. Really i think you just meant "fully good" or "not being mean/malicious" just like your saying there. But, once we start getting specific about definitions it gets confusing.

With these kinds of terms, its near impossible to NOT get confused without having a 4 hour conversation on each term, since each of us tends to have different definitions for ethical/spiritual concepts. People will tend to just agree with us if they think we are cool or they like how we look or something or just don't want to irritate anyone and so we just go on with no consensus on what this stuff means.

Common sense is of almost no use on these sorts of subjects unfortunately. We live in a "common" world. The realm of spirituality or "spirit" realm or whatever we want to call it is quite un-common and thus our intuitive nature doesn't work well there, and many people don't even spend 5 seconds analyzing it, which is required if we are to have any chance of understanding it, since its so totally out of our everyday experience of "normal" things. Even if its over-analyzing I'll take that rather than people that just don't care about anything that matters.

I'm greatful for the handful of people that bother. Too many people are too busy watching American Idol to talk about anything of any substance. It takes ages to fully understand even what we personally feel about it, much less what "everyone" should feel about it. Not that we all would ever agree, but it would be nice to at least have our terms defined so we could have a discussion about "the point" rather than have to re-define terms every time we start talking. Which , i think was kinda the point of your first post, that it should be simple to understand.

[sass_in_the_pants]

Corpse, I think it's very interesting that you equate pureness with goodness.

It's not strange - it's a connection most people make, but I think it is a very telling connection.

The connection suggests that each individual soul is BORN good, that when you are unsullied by the grime of the world, that is when you are truly without malice.

And that as innocence wains, so, too, can goodness.

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

Good post. Really i think you just meant "fully good" or "not being mean/malicious" just like your saying there. But, once we start getting specific about definitions it gets confusing.

With these kinds of terms, its near impossible to NOT get confused without having a 4 hour conversation on each term, since each of us tends to have different definitions for ethical/spiritual concepts. People will tend to just agree with us if they think we are cool or they like how we look or something or just don't want to irritate anyone and so we just go on with no consensus on what this stuff means.

Common sense is of almost no use on these sorts of subjects unfortunately. We live in a "common" world. The realm of spirituality or "spirit" realm or whatever we want to call it is quite un-common and thus our intuitive nature doesn't work well there, and many people don't even spend 5 seconds analyzing it, which is required if we are to have any chance of understanding it, since its so totally out of our everyday experience of "normal" things. Even if its over-analyzing I'll take that rather than people that just don't care about anything that matters.

I'm greatful for the handful of people that bother. Too many people are too busy watching American Idol to talk about anything of any substance. It takes ages to fully understand even what we personally feel about it, much less what "everyone" should feel about it. Not that we all would ever agree, but it would be nice to at least have our terms defined so we could have a discussion about "the point" rather than have to re-define terms every time we start talking. Which , i think was kinda the point of your first post, that it should be simple to understand.

Ok you get more of what I am saying, thank you. Its odd how people have lost the spiritual connection with them selves and other human beings. When the human soul is doubted & is considered to be a normal belief system to doubt such things, you know humanity is going fast on a downward spiral. Its sickening, and also very sad.

**Phee and Gaf are still alittle over analytical of what I am saying, but thats fine...if they are that type, then more power to them. And I don't mean that with any sarcasm. I tend to over analyze alot in life.

But with my post in the other thread that bore this one, I was just trying to state that harming people and things out of sport and unnecessary violence is wrong and damages the soul. Thats all. Period.

Yes there are terms "pure evil" or "Innocent from good deeds", but that is PLAYING with words. I am not playing with words.

Examples of what I mean from my very first post :

"Out of pureness of heart and mind, she raised her child lovingly."

"The sweet and innocent foal grazed on the green grass."

Simply put.

Odd examples but valid ones.

Pureness : I mean a do-gooder, someone who likes to create wonderful things rather then destroy things.

Innocence : I know can be affiliated with lack of knowledge and experience, but thats rather odd that you would think I would use it in those terms, you know I am not using it in that way, right?

By innocence I mean those who are not creating UNNECESSARY disturbances in life...