A curious goth...

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

I am new here and I swear I'm not trying to be rude, but I was wondering why no one here is actually talking about goth music.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

I'm bad at judging music genres. I mean REALLY bad. But...I like Nosferatu...yay! Nosferatu!!

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Yay! They're okay!

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Ok, I have to ask. what defines 'goth' music though. I mean, name some examples.

Diva destruction? *fears response and flinches*

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Diva Destruction is part of a newer wave but yes I think they would be considered goth. Plus there are a whole bunch of different sub-genres (Diva Destruction would probably basic Gothic rock with a wee bit of darkwave tossed into it. And no, gothic metal is not related to goth.) It'd be hard to list just a few bands since it's such a large genre, but let's see, some basic staples would probably be Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend, early Sisters of Mercy, Skinny Puppy is one of the only bands I would really classify as goth industrial (at least before the Process), and the Cure (well some of it). The list could go on for a loooong time.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

The Smiths?

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Ah, therein lies the rub, not all that is dark or mopey is goth. The Smiths I would consider an indie band but are goth friendly.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

So an indie band with a goth twist?

Southern Death Cult, London after Midnight, Specimen and the marionettes...are they considered 'goth'?

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Southern Death Cult is post-punk which is essentially goth before it got named goth. London After Midnight is certainly goth (but whether their later stuff is any good is debatable ), Specimen is nice old school batcave (the original english word for goth, but yes it is indeed goth. It's all rather confusing at first.) and the Marionettes, well there are a couple of bands called the Marionettes, if you mean the Marionettes who play "Ave Dementia," "Sickness," or "Monster" then yes, they are indeed.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Yeah The Marionettes as in Ave Dementia (omg I LOVE that song!!)

Virgin Prunes and Rosetta Stone?

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

The VPs are another kind of Southern Death Cult band, I've spun them at every goth night I've djed, and Rosetta Stone is a part of the third wave of goth.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

"Third wave goth"? There was a second and a first?

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Diva Destruction is part of a newer wave but yes I think they would be considered goth. Plus there are a whole bunch of different sub-genres (Diva Destruction would probably basic Gothic rock with a wee bit of darkwave tossed into it. And no, gothic metal is not related to goth.) It'd be hard to list just a few bands since it's such a large genre, but let's see, some basic staples would probably be Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend, early Sisters of Mercy, Skinny Puppy is one of the only bands I would really classify as goth industrial (at least before the Process), and the Cure (well some of it). The list could go on for a loooong time.

I don't think you can say that "gothic metal is not related to goth music" and not end up with egg on your face. Type O Negative is definately the first band that comes to mind in the "gothic metal" sub-genre...and I don't think many ppl here would sit there and say "but their not goth", and I don't mean in manner of dress and presentation.

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

I think it's like when people say hardcore futurepop like VNV Nation is goth. Type O Negative is like a baritone Black Sabbath, it's heavy metal. Yes, it's dark, but just because something is dark doesn't make it goth. Marilyn Manson as a case in point.

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Oh and in response to DBK's post, wikipedia actually has na okay article about all three generations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I think it's like when people say hardcore futurepop like VNV Nation is goth. Type O Negative is like a baritone Black Sabbath, it's heavy metal. Yes, it's dark, but just because something is dark doesn't make it goth. Marilyn Manson as a case in point.

yeah...but Manson doesn't have such gothic driven tunes like "Be my Druidess", "Wolf Moon", "My Girlfriends Girlfriend" and other such TON classics. I wouldn't put Manson in the category of gothic metal, but maybe closer to "pre-emo", based on content.

Saying that Type O isn't goth(ic) is like saying that Danzig isn't goth(ic)....you can say it, but I don't think you can say it and be accurate.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

I think it's like when people say hardcore futurepop like VNV Nation is goth. Type O Negative is like a baritone Black Sabbath, it's heavy metal. Yes, it's dark, but just because something is dark doesn't make it goth. Marilyn Manson as a case in point.

Kinda like the difference between 'rockabilly' and 'psychobilly'. 'Rockabilly' is more relaxed and kinda upbeat at times (for the example, rockabilly is goth) and psychobilly, being the same still has a more darker and more heavy essense to it (Psychobilly being heavy metal).

Does that example make sense?

[Raev]

Kinda like the difference between 'rockabilly' and 'psychobilly'. 'Rockabilly' is more relaxed and kinda upbeat at times (for the example, rockabilly is goth) and psychobilly, being the same still has a more darker and more heavy esswense to it (Psychobilly being heavy metal).

Does that example make sense?

Oddly enough, yes.

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Ooh, Danzig...I dunno, I think he wants to be goth but just comes off as kinda shlocky metal, I think Samhain is much closer to goth then any other glenn danzig project. And I'm not saying Type O Negative is a bad band, but look at their influences, look where they came from, look at the bands they tour with. They started as a thrash band, "Carnivore," they jumped on Roadrunner Records which is a totally metal label, some of their influences are Ozzy Osbourne, The Beatles and Deep Purple. The last tour I saw them on they were playing with Cradle of Filth. They mock goth with song like "Black No.1" but I have yet to hear a single goth song come out of them.

[Raev]

So what pray tell, are the requirements for a band to fall into the "goth" subcategory of music in your opinion?

[Msterbeau]

We're a bunch of posers. Now that we have lured you in, you are doomed.

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

It's not an opinion! It's a genre of music! Like industrial, or punk or classical music! I didn't invent it! I just have a big interest in studying music history (well certain sections of it) and... I am having trouble saying this without sounding like a douchebag (I probably am), but I've been djing and involved with a lot of the gothic music community in Chicago for a few years now (I work at Nocturna in Chicago. p.s. you should go ).

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

p.s.

DBK has a good comparison

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

p.s.

DBK has a good comparison

Yay!! I get cookie now?

So, basically, your basing all your statements on facts that you have discovered through your studies? that's awesome. I wish I had the patience to read.

But, I'm going to repost Raev's question but reword it:

So what pray tell, are the requirements for a band to fall into the "goth" subcategory of music based on your studies?

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Well, not necessarily studying, it's more of a hobby, and from talking to people and bands and other djs.