A curious goth...

[TheOsakaKoneko]

As a self-admitted "new "goth"", I find threads like this very interesting and potentially very educational, but also find myself withholding judgment every time people try to put really strict definitions on labels like 'goth'. As long as we're not holding 'goth' things to be inherently better than anything that's not, I'm still down though.

So Sisters of Mercy is goth, not gothic metal? I love the Sisters to death, but I always thought they sounded really heavy, and if I hadn't gotten into them through the goth scene, I might have thought they sounded more like biker music than goth. I can't really put my finger on why I get that vibe though.

Bauhaus is more like the image I get of 'goth music' per se. The Cure I always thought didn't actually sound so goth in the music itself, but the videos are AMAZINGLY goth (and just amazing). Where do things like Joy Division, New Order, Siouxsie, and Depeche Mode fall? And I assume things like Hocico wouldn't count? Since VNV doesn't? And I assume the same for Covenant?

(By the by all the bands I'm mentioning thus far are ones I adore personally.)

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Well, not necessarily studying, it's more of a hobby, and from talking to people and bands and other djs.

But, you didn't define what makes goth though...based on your 'hobby' then

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

It's not an opinion! It's a genre of music! Like industrial, or punk or classical music! I didn't invent it! I just have a big interest in studying music history (well certain sections of it) and... I am having trouble saying this without sounding like a douchebag (I probably am), but I've been djing and involved with a lot of the gothic music community in Chicago for a few years now (I work at Nocturna in Chicago. p.s. you should go ).

first off...F'cking A to the Windy City...my all time favorite city in the US!!!!!...*coughsendmeEli'scheesecakecough*

Ok..I can see your point on Danzig...though I look at songs like "Sistinas", "Her Black Wings", "Blood and Tears", and "Killer Wolf", and it's easy to see HUGE resemblance in MUCH of his stuff to The Sisters of Mercy, which is one of the "origional" goth bands.

Also...depending on who you ask, punk is a genre of music with a VERY incomplete and blurred line of definition (probably because someone in a punk band attempted to snort said line of definition), and now is a genre of music that holds MANY different subgenres within it, oddly enough the afore-mentioned "rockabilly" and "psychobilly" along with "ska", "cali-punk", "emo", and "garbage"

I would have to say the same for goth music anymore....that is a genre of music that holds MANY different subgenres, including "gothic metal"...

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

It's like I could tell you what ISN'T goth haha, but I mean it's a number of things. Once again, I'd refer to the wikipedia page on gothic rock (the page was edited by old goth folks who've published stuff since the beginning in the early early 80s, it's very trustworthy). As I said though, about the Sisters, only their early stuff is really goth (and their singer Andrew Eldritch is an enormous asshole), I'd say any SoM up through Floodland could be considered goth.

The Cure I always thought didn't actually sound so goth in the music itself, but the videos are AMAZINGLY goth (and just amazing). Where do things like Joy Division, New Order, Siouxsie, and Depeche Mode fall? And I assume things like Hocico wouldn't count? Since VNV doesn't? And I assume the same for Covenant?

On one hand you are very right about the Cure, Robert Smith is very schizophrenic with his music style, but I would suggest that you listen to the album Pornography (It's my favorite).

Joy Division falls under the catergory of post-punk (goth precursor between punk and goth), New Order is straight up New Wave (Save one or two leftover Joy Division songs), Siousxie is another band on the erratic side (started out as punk, went into a gothy-punky-post-punky phase and got more or less more mainstream with their sound over the years), Depeche Mode is like post punky new wave, albeit with a little more of a mainstream sound. Hocico is aggressive electronic music, VNV is like dance music same as Covenant. It's part of a recent trend of darker electronic music being played at goth nights, it's where many misconceptions about goth spring from. It's not necessarily bad, it's just not goth.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

What about The birthday Massacre? that would be more electronic, wouldn't it?

[TheOsakaKoneko]

On one hand you are very right about the Cure, Robert Smith is very schizophrenic with his music style, but I would suggest that you listen to the album Pornography (It's my favorite).

I have all the albums and listen to them all a lot. My favorites are Wish and Disintegration but Pornography is excellent too.

Joy Division falls under the catergory of post-punk (goth precursor between punk and goth), New Order is straight up New Wave (Save one or two leftover Joy Division songs), Siousxie is another band on the erratic side (started out as punk, went into a gothy-punky-post-punky phase and got more or less more mainstream with their sound over the years), Depeche Mode is like post punky new wave, albeit with a little more of a mainstream sound. Hocico is aggressive electronic music, VNV is like dance music same as Covenant. It's part of a recent trend of darker electronic music being played at goth nights, it's where many misconceptions about goth spring from. It's not necessarily bad, it's just not goth.

Though earlier you said 'post-punk' was what goth was called before it was called goth, so wouldn't that make post-punk=goth? I am confused there. Also I don't exactly know what 'New Wave' means - I always use it to mean New Order, Siouxsie, Mode, and The Cure, but then I heard real music fans usually used the term 'new wave' to refer to post early 70s punk, and therefore a different beast than my 'new wave' so I began to doubt all my terms. ^^

It's not necessarily bad, it's just not goth.

Who would ever even begin to assume that something could possibly be 'necessarily' bad just because it isn't goth? That's the kind of judgment I would hope to avoid in any discussion of this sort.

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

The Birthday Massacre is like Nine Inch Nails...sort of...in that it's like bubblegum goth or alternative electronic stuff, the kind they'd play on mtv, and they don't actually play their instruments during live shows, which is the real reason I'm not a big fan.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Who would ever even begin to assume that something could possibly be 'necessarily' bad just because it isn't goth? That's the kind of judgment I would hope to avoid in any discussion of this sort.

That's not what he meant. He was just clearing up the fact that he isn't 'dissing' it just because it isn't dubbed as 'goth'.

[TheOsakaKoneko]

That's not what he meant. He was just clearing up the fact that he isn't 'dissing' it just because it isn't dubbed as 'goth'.

I assumed - just saying.

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Though earlier you said 'post-punk' was what goth was called before it was called goth, so wouldn't that make post-punk=goth? I am confused there.

It's not exactly the same but it is consistently played at goth nights and was the pre-cursor to what is considered "gothic rock". Very similar but not the same thing. It confused me a lot at first, especially with all the cross-overs.

Also I don't exactly know what 'New Wave' means - I always use it to mean New Order, Siouxsie, Mode, and The Cure, but then I heard real music fans usually used the term 'new wave' to refer to post early 70s punk, and therefore a different beast than my 'new wave' so I began to doubt all my terms.

"Bizarre Love Triangle" by New Order is a good example of New wave (there are multiple new waves of many things but I refer specifically to the popular, synth-heavy dance music of the 80s, like INXS, Animotion and Sigue Sigue Sputnik)

Who would ever even begin to assume that something could possibly be 'necessarily' bad just because it isn't goth? That's the kind of judgment I would hope to avoid in any discussion of this sort.

As DBK stated, I was merely attempting to cover my bases, because it is well known that many in the goth community are a little sore about all the electronic music at "goth nights"

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Has UK Decay been brought up yet? that for certainly HAS to be 'goth'...right?...Right?

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

They are one of the bands that is kind of a blur of goth, punk and post-punk. I guess proto-goth? Haha.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Creaming Jesus?

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Too be honest, I've never really listened to a whole lot of Creaming Jesus, I've never been a huge fan, but I've certainly heard it played by many goth djs, so....yes?

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Naruhodo. I see everything you are saying.

I am basically a new wave freak at heart, and I've just branched out into the other realms from there, be they 'goth' or 'post-punk' or 'gothic rock' or 'gothic metal' or 'aggressive electronic' or 'industrial' or just 'dance'....all the ones I've been listening heavily to lately are genres that less discerning people might consider goth (or goth-friendly/goth-related/fringe-goth/goth-club-appropriate), but I think probably the only ones technically goth then would be the cure, bauhaus (and peter murphy? but not love and rockets / tones on tail I assume?), the sisters, and maybe some skinny puppy... I tried Alien Sex Fiend but just couldn't get into it. Too punk for my tastes, perhaps?

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Alien Sex Fiend requires a little time. I actually didn't like them at all for maybe even a whole year or so, but now they are one of my top ten bands.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

ok...well...what about the following....do you think any of the following bands would fit..because honestly...I find the wiki description of "goth" to be more based on time-line then content and sound

MSI

Zeromancer

Orgy

Ventana

White Zombie (on a side note, later Rob Zombie)

Lacuna Coil (*pukes n Evanescance and Within Tempt*)

Kamelot

Snake River Conspiracy

Dresden Dolls

what, in your opinion, if not "goth", would be the CLOSEST...in roots of content and sound.

also...I think ALOT of what the "newer goth" scene considers "true" goth music would be considered anything of the bands on the first two "Crow" soundtracks....lol

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Lucuna Coil and White/Rob Zombie? No way. At least not in my opinion...

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

As for Alien Sex Fiend, "Now I'm Feeling Zombified" got me into them...that's my fav song by them...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Lucuna Coil and White/Rob Zombie? No way. At least not in my opinion...

really...not Lacuna???...I can see the objection to W/RZ...but I always felt that Lacuna had the right content and sound...along the SoM lines....

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Alien Sex Fiend requires a little time. I actually didn't like them at all for maybe even a whole year or so, but now they are one of my top ten bands.

Well honestly, though I am a bit ashamed to admit it (and afraid of being banished from the board!! hahaha jk), it took me a couple months to really get into Bauhaus. Now I love them, but at first when I was listening to them... I was just kinda listening in the background, thinking yeah yeah whatever .... and then Ziggy came on and I started jamming along without realizing it, and then realized what was on, and realized 'HAHAHAHA Proof I'm not goth after all!!" (As I really am not a goth, per se, whatever a 'goth' is...I am relatively new to the scene, only a couple years in the fashion/events scene, and even less in the music scene, though I'm trying to learn more and continuously being sucked further in!..and at that time was really just getting into goth music) (And I am a huge Bowie nut, have been for a while.) ..But now I love Bauhaus too. Just took a while. So I'll wait a couple months and give ASF another try.

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

In response to Godfallen Promos: Do you mean of the bands listed? or a band off the top of my head? Off your list, I'd say Dresden Dolls, but none of them are terribly close to the sound. I guess if you want an example of what I guess an "ideal" goth band is for lack of a better word, I'd say Bauhaus or older Clan of Xymox.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

so..I guess the true question is...does content dictate the genre???

[Mr. Slippy Fist]

Lacuna's too metal. Goth has little or no relation to metal, it suffers from the same misconceptions as the dark electronic stuff.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Well honestly, though I am a bit ashamed to admit it (and afraid of being banished from the board!! hahaha jk), it took me a couple months to really get into Bauhaus. Now I love them, but at first when I was listening to them... I was just kinda listening in the background, thinking yeah yeah whatever .... and then Ziggy came on and I started jamming along without realizing it, and then realized what was on, and realized 'HAHAHAHA Proof I'm not goth after all!!" (As I really am not a goth, per se, whatever a 'goth' is...I am relatively new to the scene, only a couple years in the fashion/events scene, and even less in the music scene, though I'm trying to learn more and continuously being sucked further in!..and at that time was really just getting into goth music) (And I am a huge Bowie nut, have been for a while.) ..But now I love Bauhaus too. Just took a while. So I'll wait a couple months and give ASF another try.

Shit. Well, I only listen to 'goth' on occasion, as Matt can tell you I listen to punk/pop-punk more than anything else and here I am on a goth board. Never be ashamed of your music tastes. It's who you are!! Music is a very important aspect to a persons life and personality traits...but that's just my opinion...