Gun "Control"

[n0Mad]

So much discussion going on. Let's see ...

More Guns = More Death:

Tasers: You're approached by two muggers. Who do you taze? You've only got one shot. What if that one shot misses? Or do you mean the tasers that don't shoot projectiles but just have an arc of electricity instead? Are you really going to let someone come that close? Same problem with two or more assailants. Who do you zap?

Pepper Spray: I've seen somebody take an entire can of pepper spray to the face and still keep fighting. And it wasn't pussy pepper spray either. It was super strong stuff mixed with tear gas. Didn't even phase the guy. I've also seen a video where a cop emptied a can of spray in a perpetrators face. The perp drew a gun and killed the cop. Yeah, pepper spray is NOT an effective deterrent. All it can do is buy you time while you draw your gun and/or run.

Shoot to Wound/Shoot to Kill/Warning Shots: None of the above. You shoot to stop the threat. You only shoot if you or somebody else is in immediate danger of loss of life, severe bodily injury, or rape. That's it. Those are the only situations where lethal force is justified. When you are threatened, your reaction is to stop the threat. Warning shots have to go somewhere and may kill an innocent. Furthermore, if you felt threatened enough to draw your sidearm in the first place, then you are threatened enough to use deadly force. If you feel a warning shot is merited, then you shouldn't have drawn your gun to begin with. Shooting out kneecaps, toes, or trying to shoot the gun from their hand are all bad ideas. The targets are small and moving. You will miss. Your target area is center of mass. It's the largest part of the human body and wounds there are most likely to stop the threat. If a few shots to COM fails to stop the assailant, then drugs and/or body armor might be the cause. In that case, head shots are the only thing that will stop the threat. If the perpetrator dies as a result of his wounds, such is the case but you are absolved of murder. Your only intention is to stop the threat.

If you're going to argue something, then you should at least know a bit about your topic. Go to the range. Shoot some guns. Take a CCW course. Read a few books by Massad Ayoob and John Lott. Most people oppose guns because they fear them. Fear is caused by ignorance. Ignorance is combated with knowledge. Guns scared the hell out of me until I bought a pistol, learned how to use it, and spent countless hours trying to educate myself as much as possible on the subject. Now I no longer fear guns, but I sure as hell still respect them. Those people who know guns and still oppose them, that I can respect. But those who oppose them who have never even shot one and cannot recite the four basic rules of firearm safety ... please do some research.

[Rev.Reverence]

If you're going to argue something, then you should at least know a bit about your topic. Go to the range. Shoot some guns. Take a CCW course. Read a few books by Massad Ayoob and John Lott. Most people oppose guns because they fear them. Fear is caused by ignorance. Ignorance is combated with knowledge. Guns scared the hell out of me until I bought a pistol, learned how to use it, and spent countless hours trying to educate myself as much as possible on the subject. Now I no longer fear guns, but I sure as hell still respect them. Those people who know guns and still oppose them, that I can respect. But those who oppose them who have never even shot one and cannot recite the four basic rules of firearm safety ... please do some research.

+^infinity

[phee]

So fear = peace?

[Rev.Reverence]

So fear = peace?

fear=death

[phee]

fear=death

But the argument being made is that the more people who fear being shot, the less crime.

And no one really addressed this:

theoretically...

What do you think should happen if, you are defending yourself in say... a mugging, and the attacker had a knife... and you pulled out your gun and "busted a cap in his ass yo" but some of the "caps you busted" missed the target and kills someone accross the street who was walking with their family...

What do you think should happen in that situation? Should they then return fire at you for being a violent criminal (unintentionally)?

[Rev.Reverence]

But the argument being made is that the more people who fear being shot, the less crime.

And no one really addressed this:

...phee...you do understand...I'm just chatting...I am not allowed to own guns...

[vampvonramm]

The more citizens that have guns the more criminals will have them also

they will also fear the average citizen more!!!

[phee]

they will also fear the average citizen more!!!

So fear = peace

[vampvonramm]

...phee...you do understand...I'm just chatting...I am not allowed to own guns...

If you dont mind me asking is becase of a criminal record or you being a parolee?

[vampvonramm]

I understand your argument that gun control is unconstitutional, and technically I can't fault it.

But quite frankly, the mentality of supposed law-abiding citizens who think that they need a gun on them at all times and that if something goes down they are going to whip out an assault weapon and start blowing away all the "bad" guys with out a second thought scares me about as much as the idea of criminals having access to guns over citizens.

assault weapon, even if you had a ccw that'd be a whole lotta gun to haul around, by the way some asshole tried stealin my wallet last night....wouldnt have minded havin a ccw then, i could've held them there till the police came

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

So you believe in legal assault rifles mearly to wound... not to kill?

It's been stated before, but I am thinking it's not sinking in. What makes an assault rifle and assualt rifle... is cosmetic.

This...

and this...

is all cosmetics. They are both gas operated, semi-automatic 30-06 rifles.

Furthermore, no one wants to walk around with an "assault rifle". They want to walk around with a pistol.

Phee, I am coming close to bringing out my patented word... you are trying to obfuscate the real debate and pull on heart strings and fears rather than actually make a point. Just tell the real reason... you are afraid of guns.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

So fear = peace

Yes. Always has and always will.

Fear is what kept the USSR and the USA from turning the world into a large ball of radioactive glass. Fear is what keeps North Korea from doing more than they already have. Fear is what keeps an enemy at bay.

We can either use Fear to our advantage or succumb to it.

[Rev.Reverence]

Yes. Always has and always will.

Fear is what kept the USSR and the USA from turning the world into a large ball of radioactive glass. Fear is what keeps North Korea from doing more than they already have. Fear is what keeps an enemy at bay.

We can either use Fear to our advantage or succumb to it.

...interesting way to put it...I "got" the equation...& I dig the usage of it as a tool.

...though, I still prefer "Fear not Devil, nor God, nor Man."

..Or "Fear is the mind slayer."

[phee]

Yes. Always has and always will.

Fear is what kept the USSR and the USA from turning the world into a large ball of radioactive glass. Fear is what keeps North Korea from doing more than they already have. Fear is what keeps an enemy at bay.

We can either use Fear to our advantage or succumb to it.

I can see your point of view... that is all I was asking for....

fear = peace

I was not saying it was bad or good... just asking

[phee]

Phee, I am coming close to bringing out my patented word... you are trying to obfuscate the real debate and pull on heart strings and fears rather than actually make a point. Just tell the real reason... you are afraid of guns.

Logic

[Homicidalheathen]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/11/obama....ales/index.html

[Goth Brooks]

So you believe in legal assault rifles mearly to wound... not to kill?

I believe in aiming for center mass.

Whether the attacker lives or dies is up to his own body and the extent of the damage.

You aim center mass, double tap, re-aim and fire again if the attacker is still standing... repeat until the attacker is down or the magazine is empty.

It does NOT matter if he lives or dies. All that matters is the attack has stopped.

In MI, if he survived, you have to render medical assistance, and I would.

[n0Mad]

This video shows a logical strong argument in favor of strict gun control and even complete gun ban laws. It's hard to argue with the presenter's logic and all the statistics back up his claims too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L3kMuN8sjk

[phee]

This video shows a logical strong argument in favor of strict gun control and even complete gun ban laws. It's hard to argue with the presenter's logic and all the statistics back up his claims too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L3kMuN8sjk

LOL for a second I actually thought you were attempting to see another point of view on the subject.... silly me

[Goth Brooks]

911 Caller Without Gun in Home Invasion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3vWsa4ags

911 Caller With Gun in Home Invasion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ExC7fE1LaY

[Mouf Breathah]

My personal belief is that educated citizens should want to own and carry a weapon for the simple fact that our government is not a reliable source of crime prevention.

You hear a ton about the police catching criminals and investigating crimes. Sure. And they do fantastic work. Criminal investigation has only gotten better as time goes on. The problem is they're catching criminals and investigating crimes that have ALREADY HAPPENED. Some criminal decided to victimize another human and they succeeded.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for our police force. In fact, I also happen to believe that police presence needs to be increased in a lot of areas.

But the fact remains that we can not depend on the police to swoop down like a uniform-clad superhero and stop an evil-doer from attempting to commit a crime. While a very large part of society has been tricked into finding comfort knowing that their town has a police department, the fact remains that if an officer is not right there when shit is about to go down, you have nearly ZERO chance of preventing that criminal from doing what they intend if you do not defend yourself.

You can choose to allow yourself to become a victim or you can choose to step up and try to prevent it from happening.

If somebody tries to rob you at knife point and you pull out a gun is it likely that person is going to continue to try to rob you?

Sometimes the simple presence of a gun will be enough to deter a criminal. No bloodshed needed.

People can choose to believe that they live in a Disney movie and nothing bad will ever happen to them. That's fine. I don't intend to take that fantasy away. They can have it. I, myself, choose to live in reality and would gladly step up and defend myself or a helpless person from becoming a victim.

[Head Wreck]

in the UK where we have a very low distribution of firearms, i don't believe anyone has need of them as the chances of a criminal element using a firearm are quite low. over in the states however... just because a gun ids illegal, doesn't mean their not going to abide by that law, and the distribution of firearms is much much higher.

[n0Mad]

"When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."

It takes police at least 7 minutes to respond to an emergency call. And, in the Warren case, the Supreme Court has ruled that the police are under no obligation to respond to any call at all.

[candyman]

On a personal note, as of this past year, when I am not at school I carry a .44 mag with two blanks and three live rounds in it. Three times in my little town I have had the shit kicked out of me. All those times I was with a group of people who also suffered at the hands of these idiots. We couldn't say or do shit becuase we didn't know what they had. So the fear there was that this could be worse. Each time we saw these people come at us, one time, and the other two times they followed us around. There would have been a fourth time except it was hunting season and we were just walking around after the hunt and one of our buddies always carries his 357 special. Well, he pulled it out and the group of idiots that were coming at us with taunts and what looked like a bat stopped. There were at least five of them and there were three of us. The quickly walked away and we also got the hell out of there.

Yeah it sucks but sometimes fear does equal peace, or at least safety. Its like prisons where there are not many guards walking around but the inmates know that there are camers watching them. The reason this works is that they don't know where these cameras are and when they are looking somewhere. So when you know something exists but you don't know exactly when or where is seriously makes you rethink your plan.

I know too many people that keep getting beaten or robbed. The cops are a joke and need you life story even when you have a giant gash on your forehead, a swollen eye, a split lip, and bloody scratches all over you arms and legs. I personally went to the cops twice when it happened to me and it almost seemed like they didn't give a shit and it also seemed like they thought I was lying. Tazers, knives, keys, batons, and all that small shit fail when it comes down to it. All these "safety courses" in Madison and rape and other violent crimes are still going up.

Also, when I travel to Milwaukee or Chicago I would rather bring a gun to a gun fight.

[prick]

good luck taking my babies, I meen guns away from me.