Animal Used for Research...

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

Something has been brought to my attention recently.

All these crazy animal right/activist groups are trying to ban the purchase of shelter animals(who are getting euthanized by the minute, because they can't find a home for them) to research facilities.

To be honest there is so much to say that I don't know were to start.

Being a student at Wayne State in the Vet' Tech. program has taught me a LOT of things, especially how animals are utilized for research.

1st of all the videos that circle the internet are FALSE!!! Those were videos from animals in the 50's-60's.

The FDA has so much rules and regulations that RESEARCH ANIMALS ARE TREATED BETTER THAN PETS!

If the animal is in any pain or discomfort it is humanity euthanized!!!

They are fed,played with, have medical attention around the clock, all so US HUMANS with medical needs can benefit from all of this. Vaccines, new disease cures, medication... you name it, animals have provided us with all of these.

Big animals (dogs,cats,cattle,primates) are rarely used (the smaller the researcher can start off the better) so generally it's rats/mice/fish that are utilized.

What I'm getting at is that WE AS STUDENTS get about 12 dogs every year, so we can practice doing vaccines/restraint/drawing blood/ administering medication/, they are spayed/neutered at the end of the year and are found good loving caring homes to spend the rest of their life in. However if they ban this we have to find another expensive source were we can get our animals from (meaning our school tuition will go up and we can't save 12 homeless dogs from a shelter).

If there is a petition to sign I will have it posted on here ..

So what do you fellow DGN-ers think about all this?

I mean do you want the cost of everything in the medicine dept to go up in price too???

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask I'll try to answer it if I can.

Sorry But I was just so frustrated I had to vent!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

[candyman]

Something has been brought to my attention recently.

All these crazy animal right/activist groups are trying to ban the purchase of shelter animals(who are getting euthanized by the minute, because they can't find a home for them) to research facilities.

To be honest there is so much to say that I don't know were to start.

Being a student at Wayne State in the Vet' Tech. program has taught me a LOT of things, especially how animals are utilized for research.

1st of all the videos that circle the internet are FALSE!!! Those were videos from animals in the 50's-60's.

The FDA has so much rules and regulations that RESEARCH ANIMALS ARE TREATED BETTER THAN PETS!

If the animal is in any pain or discomfort it is humanity euthanized!!!

They are fed,played with, have medical attention around the clock, all so US HUMANS with medical needs can benefit from all of this. Vaccines, new disease cures, medication... you name it, animals have provided us with all of these.

Big animals (dogs,cats,cattle,primates) are rarely used (the smaller the researcher can start off the better) so generally it's rats/mice/fish that are utilized.

What I'm getting at is that WE AS STUDENTS get about 12 dogs every year, so we can practice doing vaccines/restraint/drawing blood/ administering medication/, they are spayed/neutered at the end of the year and are found good loving caring homes to spend the rest of their life in. However if they ban this we have to find another expensive source were we can get our animals from (meaning our school tuition will go up and we can't save 12 homeless dogs from a shelter).

If there is a petition to sign I will have it posted on here ..

So what do you fellow DGN-ers think about all this?

I mean do you want the cost of everything in the medicine dept to go up in price too???

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask I'll try to answer it if I can.

Sorry But I was just so frustrated I had to vent!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

The only part I hate is where they use the animals for research on smoking. Not so much that it hurts the animals but that the data sucks. How fucking stupid is it to put animals in sealed boxes, fill them with smoke from an entire pack of cigarettes, have them die and blame all of lifes troubles on smoking.

I don't hate research that uses animals...I just hate careless research that wastes time and my tax dollars. If the research is finding something important or is not harmful then fine...but if you are trying to "prove" something that you have a stupid grudge against then cut it out.

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

Wayne State Research facilities do not conduct that type of experiment.

They do cardiology studies, cancer research and mostly new medication findings.

This is exclusively in Michigan that they are tying to do this.

Since their experiments are done on small rodents unfortunately there are rodents specially bred for research so you can't do anything about that.

[TitsMcGee]

I would rather have animals being used to find cures for illnesses thatn sitting in shelters. Especially in this economy where people can't really afford pets. Shelters also annoy the shit out of me because they charge and arm and a leg for a damn dog that people don't adopt them.

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

If you want to adopt an animal PLEASE PLEASE go to Detroit Animal Control.

They HAVE SO MANY DOGS/CATS up for adoption that need loving homes.

Their adoption is so cheap it's like $100 for dogs and $75 for cats.

All of them come spayed and neutered with all of their shots.

Since I did my practicum there I try to get as many animals out of there as possible, because after seeing them lying dead and piled up on top of each other ... well let's just say I'd rather have them go for research than lose their life.

[taysteewonderbunny]

It's not captivity and research to which I am opposed. Needless suffering bothers me, whether it be human or another animal. So long as the protocols are as humane as you insist that they are, I have no problem with it.

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

They are I assure you.

The protocols have to be approved by a committee called IACUC and trust me they filter everything.

The private investigator( person conducting the research also called a PI) has to tell them what they are using as a test subjects,why,what type of procedure these animals are going to have, type of drug usage. There is just so much involved.. this committee consists of veterinarians, scientist, people from the community. So if there is something inhumane with the research they wont allow it. Also if the PI breaks their protocol funding is pulled and they are shut down.

People who are veterinarians and Vet. Tech's over see these animals in the facilities daily and make sure they are doing well.

And I'm mainly upset because the students going trough their Vet. Tech. program do NOT EXPERIMENT on the animals. IT's no different than taking your dog to the VET. We do everything they would do at a Vet's office, we are just getting educated on live animals. It's not like we cut their eyes out or lop of their legs.

We find homes for these dogs when May hits (because were done with the program).

[Rev.Reverence]

...well keep up the good work...

.....I am ALL for Humane & Forward progress...seems like these douche-bags NEED a new fuckin' hobby to me...

[Guest Megalicious]

It's not captivity and research to which I am opposed. Needless suffering bothers me, whether it be human or another animal.

Exactly.

I think EP is taking about the recent complaint that was sent to the USDA about live dogs being used for practice of trauma medicine at U of M medical school.

Do I thinking doctors can benefit from having live tissues to practice on? Of course.

Do I believe that it's ok to give otherwise healthy dog gun shot wounds, stab wounds and other body/head /limb trauma so these doctors can get a feel for Emergency/trauma medicine? Hell no. I think it's inhumane. Especially when there are other resources out there to learn from, one being HUMAN cadavers.

I understand the importance of using animals in research, but I think this goes beyond that, to something vial and ugly. Just opinion of course. I'm not saying anyone should agree with it, or that if you don't your wrong. Just making a statement.

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

It's to the USDA as much as it is just local people making a law due to idiots like PETA.

And you have to understand that most of the research that's done with pets is food studies.

In a way if this is taken seriously and the facilities are forced to have to pay for class A animals(ones that are bred for research) then our pet food is going to go up too.

Meg let me ask you something.

We have a program that we(the students at Wayne State) teach doctors and nurses how to in-tubate young infants.

Now the kitten and ferret trachea is the similar to an infants. So after these professionals are properly trained and have practiced on live things are going to perform this on someones child possibly yours (god forbid, I hope ur kids stay healthy). Wouldn't you feel a bit comfortable knowing that these people know what they are doing and will not damage ur child's vocal cords or worse..?

The animals are under anesthesia the whole time when they are in-tubated .

After the practice the animals are in deed euthanized, however they would have been anyways at a shelter or died on the street. So they are treated well, and yes their life is lost, but think of all the others that are going to be saved.

[Rev.Reverence]

It's to the USDA as much as it is just local people making a law due to idiots like PETA.

And you have to understand that most of the research that's done with pets is food studies.

In a way if this is taken seriously and the facilities are forced to have to pay for class A animals(ones that are bred for research) then our pet food is going to go up too.

Meg let me ask you something.

We have a program that we(the students at Wayne State) teach doctors and nurses how to in-tubate young infants.

Now the kitten and ferret trachea is the similar to an infants. So after these professionals are properly trained and have practiced on live things are going to perform this on someones child possibly yours (god forbid, I hope ur kids stay healthy). Wouldn't you feel a bit comfortable knowing that these people know what they are doing and will not damage ur child's vocal cords or worse..?

The animals are under anesthesia the whole time when they are in-tubated .

After the practice the animals are in deed euthanized, however they would have been anyways at a shelter or died on the street. So they are treated well, and yes their life is lost, but think of all the others that are going to be saved.

I have to point out...that philosophically speaking...their lives would have been forfeit to an insufferable end...starvation in the wild streets...OR..(even worse)..stuffed in a cage to be put down unceremoniously at the hands of men......this just allows Dog (& whatever else) to serve man in another capacity...they HAVE been our servants since before recorded time you know (dogs)...THEY LIKE IT.

[Guest Megalicious]

I think you misunderstood my post. If you re-read it I clearly states that I believe animal research is important. I am specifically referring to using live dogs for practice of trauma medicine.

There is a HUGE difference between bagging a ferret for practice and inflicting a gun shot wound on a LIVE animal. There lies the problem for me.

[Rev.Reverence]

I think you misunderstood my post. If you re-read it I clearly states that I believe animal research is important. I am specifically referring to using live dogs for practice of trauma medicine.

There is a HUGE difference between bagging a ferret for practice and inflicting a gun shot wound on a LIVE animal. There lies the problem for me.

[Constantin]

you the price is way to high for adopting pets these days i remember when i got my cat i was 6 or 7 and it cost only only like 10 bucks to get her from this animal rescue up north. we still had to get her shots and she wasnt spade but really i think spaying your pet should be up to the person not the shelter. and also the shot were only around 50 at the vet back then. also what the heck is up with the loops they want you to jump threw just to get pet. they want you to have a house and if you get a dog they ask if you got a fenced in yard and all this other stuff which i find rediculas. they should just ask do you have a jpb can you pay your bills if so great here is your pet. they have to stoplooking for the perfect people and just look for people. i mean why would you alow thousands of animals to be euthinised when sure maybee the people mght not be the best to adopt a pet but they could still love that animal and heck anything is better then just putting them down .

[TygerLili]

I had a response all typed out, and for some reason it didn't post.

What you are describing, EP, I don't have a problem with. As long as the animals are treated humanely, and not harmed, I'd rather see them be used for research than just euthanized.

As for medical reseach, I still think it should be done on convicted murderers and rapists. I'm only half kidding. To hell with cruel and unusual punishment, they should be made to do something useful for society.

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

you the price is way to high for adopting pets these days i remember when i got my cat i was 6 or 7 and it cost only only like 10 bucks to get her from this animal rescue up north. we still had to get her shots and she wasnt spade but really i think spaying your pet should be up to the person not the shelter. and also the shot were only around 50 at the vet back then. also what the heck is up with the loops they want you to jump threw just to get pet. they want you to have a house and if you get a dog they ask if you got a fenced in yard and all this other stuff which i find rediculas. they should just ask do you have a jpb can you pay your bills if so great here is your pet. they have to stoplooking for the perfect people and just look for people. i mean why would you alow thousands of animals to be euthinised when sure maybee the people mght not be the best to adopt a pet but they could still love that animal and heck anything is better then just putting them down .

You have to understand that there are reasons why shelters screen who they give a pet to.

They want them to have a home forever not a home for 3-4 weeks then the dog/cat comes back to the shelter because the dumb-ass owner could not afford the Vet bills or could not afford the pet AT ALL (food,toys,shelter).

IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE VET YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE PET.

And I disagree with you I think it's a great idea to have your pet spayed/neutered, because you are not increasing the population so more animals can be homeless and in shelters. You have your little idiots (true story at work) that come in and say:" oh yeah well take the brother and the sister from the same litter and we don't want to get them fixed because we want them to have babies". OH YOU STUPID TWAT.. would you go and have babies with your brother or sister??? I don't think so. So why would you want to do that. Then you have these kittens who will grow up to be adults and they are not cute anymore, you don't have the money to get them all spayed and neutered now because it's $150 a cat to do that. So that's a bit too much and you let them have more and more offspring, until they start spreading diseases and dying off eventually. So how is that fair to an animal. I don't think it is. That's why shelters won't let the animal get adopted until it's spayed/neutered.

They should take you on a tour of the back scenes on what goes on at a shelter. If you are a true animal lover you will ball your eyes out on how many animals are getting euthanized on a daily basis. They are taken on a wheel barrel and dumped on top of each other in a huge freezer...

And yes they do have to charge some price for the Vet that does that surgery and the materials used (suture,gowns,gloves, ect), for the vaccines that they give and the food that animal was given when it was at the shelter. These shelters have to get their money somehow. But the Mich. Humane Soc. charges too much because they are privately owned and they actually pay their workers.

No Meg what I was trying to get at .. is that sometimes they do have to practice on an animal.

I don't know the detail about the trauma dogs, so I can't tell you how it's done.But from what I know and seen they do try to give pain medication and sedation if the animal is uncomfortable.

If you want I'll find out what their protocol is on that.

[Guest Megalicious]

If you want I'll find out what their protocol is on that.

Thanks but I already know the protocol, at least the protocol for U of M. Giving painkillers and sedatives doesn't give them to right to inflict MASSIVE trauma to these animals in the case of using them for Emergency practice. It just doesn't set well with me. No ill will towards you if you feel differently, I just can't understand it myself.

I couldn't agree with you more on the pet adoption process though and really loved "If you can afford the vet, then you can't afford the pet" that is awesome and I'll remember that. My poor Clementine had been returned twice already when I adopted her. She is a very special needs pet, but I love her to death. I don't understand how people can treat animals like fucking fashion accessories. It just infuriates me.

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

Unfortunately some things you just can't go around. And the trauma research seems like one.

I mean I'm not for it or against it... the researchers will find one way or another to get animals, it does not matter to them either way.

I totally understand the shelters. They are getting animals like crazy because of the economy.

And people just don't care to have their animals seen by the Vet.

This lady comes in with her hyperthyroid(they have an overactive thyroid gland so eat like crazy but never gain any weight -they have to be on long term meds) cat, because it has diarrhea.

Me:"So Mrs.H, how long has this been going on?".

MRS.H:" Oh about 3 weeks now".

I think -geezzz poor cat this lady of a moron waits for 3 weeks to bring her 18 year old cat to see us...

MRS.H: "We have been giving her thyroid medication everyday".

I look at her chart the lady has not been buying medication since OCTOBER, and WE ARE NOW JANUARY!

MRS.H:" I've been feeding her kitten food".

My jaw just about dropped open. 1st of all if it's not a KITTEN you do not feed it kitten food because the food is too rich in nutrients and it gives any adult especially old cats DIARRHEA!!!!! I wanted to clobber this woman. So what she was doing is not giving her cat the meds and trying to cover it up by giving her kitten food and saying she was.

What an idiot really... SO ITS BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE THIS SHELTERS MAKE YOU GO TROUGH A HARSH PROCESS OF QUESTIONS.

[Rev.Reverence]

:blink: ...told ya' the world was full of crazy peoples...

[Guest Megalicious]

SO ITS BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE THIS SHELTERS MAKE YOU GO TROUGH A HARSH PROCESS OF QUESTIONS.

And rightfully so. JFC, poor kitty.

[StormKnight (1)]

There are 5 classes of discomfort imposed upon the animal during experiments as defined by the UDSA, one of the many agencies animal research is required to comply with.

The lowest level, (A, on an A-E level) is generally around the same level or better for pets at home in the level of discomfort.

B is minor procedures like the occasional blood draw, etc, that don't involve anesthesia.

C is the first level of surgery, and does not involve entering a body cavity (subdermal implantations and the like.)

D is major surgery entering the body cavity.

C and D have to have specific anesthesia and pain management regimens written in their protocol to reduce suffering. Most physiologic aspects of shock (hypotension, hypovolemia, hypoxia,) can be studied here, as you can keep the animal asleep as you adjust its blood pressure and vascular volume.

E is that pain and discomfort are expected and can't be avoided, and death is an outcome. This is where most awake trauma experiments (like sheep in close proximity to a high-concussive blasts to look at lung damage and organ damage,) drug lethality tests, and such lie.

All experiments are reviewed by the local facility's review boards (composed of people from the facility AND the local community,) and governmental review boards to make sure that statistics are used to make sure that only the minimum amount of animals are used to generate statistical significance.

A class E protocol is reviewed constantly and monitored closely, and usually is very, very difficult to get approved. In long term class E protocols, there has to be set endpoints outside of death (like severe weight loss, anorexia, dehydration, inability to move,) that would cause the animal to be euthanized. Most awake trauma experiments (and I have books from the military loaded with them,) the animal is euthanized within a couple of hours if the trauma didn't kill them outright (most damage from trauma becomes readily apparent in the first two hours.)

All these ethics and guidelines came about because of WW-II. After seeing the Nazi human experiments and Japanese Unit 731 human experiments, the rest of the world started to look carefully at how we were treating other animals in experiments. It took a long while for the academic world to catch up (i.e. research scientists in academia are slow responders to change,) but federal agencies (FDA, NIH, USDA,) and their regs and funding of projects forced the issue.

[n0Mad]

You wanna see something that'll get your goat? Watch the Penn & Teller "Bullshit" episode on PETA. I fuckin hate PETA.

[StormKnight (1)]

Just saw it on youtube (popped up just by entering penn and teller on the search engine.) It doesn't surprise me that they are as hypocritical as they are. Love the fact that the VP of the organization is insulin dependent (recombinant insulin is both expensive and come from living bacteria (whether they are animal debate still ongoing.) And considering most insulin before recombinant technology even existed was derived from pig pancreas, (she looks old enough to have had it,) by all rights she should have had at least 2 amputation from diabetic vasculopathy, blinded, or have died from either the heart attack they are at more risk for or from the kidney failure (dialysis membranes originally were derived from sheep's intestine.)

*My apologies for any of our resident diabetics. Unfortunate, but I have seen issues like this time and time again in the environment I work in when your conditions is chronically out of control. Please take care of yourselves.*

Even social animals will protect their own in the wild (bees and the hive defense, wolves protecting the pack,) and only turn on their own in dire situations (severe overpopulation.) These people choose to think they have to turn on their on species for an ideal. Doesn't that get interrupted in the wild as a rogue animal that their own species puts down?

It's amazing that while they want to eliminate research and pets, they have no alternatives for:

1. Alternatives for medical research that *don't* involve us looking like the Nazis and the Holocaust, or Imperial Japan and Unit 731. Stopping is never an option.

2. When we are overrun and endangered by the very animals they protect, are we going to have to sacrifice our lives to let them live? What they forget is we are part of this planet as well, not an alien invader.

[EnViOuSPoPpEt]

You wanna see something that'll get your goat? Watch the Penn & Teller "Bullshit" episode on PETA. I fuckin hate PETA.

PETA are the ass wipes that what this passed.

Thank you Storm Knight for the info sometimes it's too much to type out .

[Scary Guy]

I'm a member of PETA

People Eating Tasty Animals :D

Seriously though they're insane. My friend Todd told me they want to rename all the fish to sea kittens because then they think people will stop eating them. http://www.peta.org/sea_kittens/

Sorry, I'm an equal opportunity omnivore, I'd eat cat and dog. Hell I'd even eat human. I'd really like to eat some PETA humans, maybe on pita bread.