Are some Pagans uncomfortable with-the dark side?

[The Void]

Recently I have noticed more and more in the circles that I run in that some, not all, people who tend to call themselves Pagans (using that general term) are often uncomfortable when I present ideas contrary to things like the Wiccan Rede or many three and ten fold laws and whatnot. To sum it up, they often cringe at my nonchalance over those who would use magick/energies/influence in any way they choose.

I found this interesting since I hardly expected it from the Pagan community to be so close minded towards the duality of dark/light aspects of life. In fact, many rituals surround this aspect. So, I am still at a loss as to the fact that some of them get flustered at the thought of looking into the other side of magick and beliefs, which would be a more left-hand or dark path.

Quite frankly I hate having to use these mundane words like 'dark', 'light', 'left-hand' etc. because they have all sorts of connotations and stigmas attached. Perhaps it's the fact that Pagans as a whole have tried to shake the connection of themselves to Satanism by outsiders. I can understand it, but while I understand that fear, it makes no sense in personal discussions between Pagans and magick practitioners, that they feel threatened by mere ideas contrary to their systems and religions.

My point is that due to all the persecution that Pagans have had to endure, one would think they'd be more progressive in their thinking about acceptance of other ways, even left-hand path individuals or those in a more grey area of magick and philosophy. I'm not feeling that in any pagan circle I seem to get involved in socially.

I run a magickal practitioners meetup and recently had to make it quite clear that ALL people of all paths, religions, philosophies are welcome. So far it has not been contested by the members, but I'm wondering if they can really handle it.

Any Pagans have any thoughts on how they feel about this topic?

[Fierce Critter]

]Since I don't follow a particularly definable path, I'm not sure how well I can answer this to your satisfaction.

Basically, I can't deal with man-written dogma. I try to stick to a well-known tenet of many religions, basically that of "do unto others/the golden rule/harm none/etc."

Basically, I try to guide myself by karma - I try not to do anything to anyone that might come back to me in some way.

That said, I feel to perform rituals or follow teachings that are directly negative would hurt me, so I leave it alone. And I feel that those who do involve themselves in such things have a rude awakening waiting for them.

How do I work around this? Well, I haven't been real active in my spirituality lately. But I have been known to perform a "spell" or two. One circumstance involved a need to deal with some really bad element living down the block from my parents. I had two choices - a ritual bring them to their knees, or a ritual focusing on our safety. Since I believe doing harm on others can come back to hurt me, I chose the latter. I performed a protection on my parents property, with the addendum of, "let no harm come to any as a result of this protection." The result? The "bad element" decided to move out of the neighborhood. Problem solved.

(Yes, I am open to the possibility that this was just coincidence. I'm open-minded, and yet skeptical of such things to a healthy degree.)

Likewise, say I want to perform a spell to get some money. There is some pretty careful wording needed, else you could end up getting the money you need by way of a relative dying and leaving you money - not good. Bad karma. So if I were to perform a money spell, I'd have to add similar wording to what I said in the protection, "let this not come from the misfortune of another." or something like that.

I'm all fine and good with others living that way. I just don't think it's all that wise, and there are ways to get around it.

[Guest Megalicious]

.............

[Head Wreck]

i call myself an independant for a reason. i find its best to take a look at science, nature and the paranormal and try and make sense of it myself

[Homicidalheathen]

Do you know why they are so nieve? They either refuse to except their own dark side and come to terms, except and deal with it in a just or positive way and so cannot handle being around people who do/are.

I ask you, is that more spiritual? I think not.

[torn asunder]

one person's naivety is another person's belief/faith... how boring life would be if we all agreed! you might theoretically discuss these things with another, but if you expect to change another's mind by doing so, you need to rethink your motives, and expectations...

(edited, because it sounded pompous-as-hell the way i wrote it!!) :erm :whistling

[Fierce Critter]

Do you know why they are so nieve?  They either refuse to except their own dark side and come to terms, except and deal with it in a just or positive way and so cannot handle being around people who do/are.

I ask you, is that more spiritual?  I think not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damn. That's presumptive & snobbish.

Maybe it's because they/we are well the opposite of naive and have simply found a way that works better for us - a different way.

No less spiritual than choosing a different path, far from it.

[Guest Megalicious]

Damn. That's presumptive & snobbish.

Maybe it's because they/we are well the opposite of naive and have simply found a way that works better for us - a different way.

No less spiritual than choosing a different path, far from it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nicely put fierce.........

[Scary Guy]

Do you know why they are so nieve?  They either refuse to except their own dark side and come to terms, except and deal with it in a just or positive way and so cannot handle being around people who do/are.

I ask you, is that more spiritual?  I think not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you speaking about pagens, or christians? As I see it many of both refuse to admit their dark side. The "dark side" is a natural part of life. You can't have one without the other, kind of like the ying yang symbol. Although if you take into account that good/evil right/wrong are just perspectives and do not really exist. Then that symbol should just be a grey dot.

one person's naivety is another person's belief/faith... how boring life would be if we all agreed! you might theoretically discuss these things with another, but if you expect to change another's mind by doing so, you need to rethink your motives, and expectations...

(edited, because it sounded pompous-as-hell the way i wrote it!!)  :erm    :whistling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought belief/faith was naivety since no one knows anything for sure.

Also if we all got along and believed the same thing, we would have no holy wars.

I find that we are all agnostic and continualy need to be learning about religion and life and how they relate. Those who don't want to learn any more and believe they are right are closeminded and can no longer grow spiritually as people.

As far as the laws go governing the religions (three fold law etc...), well thats just the (can't think of the word, means the rules of how that particular thing operates, whatever the thing is). Deep down all religion is exactly the same. There is right and wrong, things you do and do not do. Each has different ideas on how that is done.

[Homicidalheathen]

Ah viva la difference, it is what makes the world go round isn't it. I am coming from a place of being discriminated against for being a gothy witch right now by someone who is kinda well liked in the psychic community that a few of us have had problems with I.e. he can't control his invocations. Yet he is against us for being pagan. I am just pissed.

one person's naivety is another person's belief/faith... how boring life would be if we all agreed! you might theoretically discuss these things with another, but if you expect to change another's mind by doing so, you need to rethink your motives, and expectations...

(edited, because it sounded pompous-as-hell the way i wrote it!!)  :erm    :whistling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Nienna]

When I initially left the church and persued a Pagan faith, I was a "hardcore, crunchy granola Wiccan". I was also 14. I think when people are newer in a faith they tend to cling to written "rules" to guide them. As they become more comfortable, (hopefully) they will begin to question, and thus to grow.

In the years since then, as would be expected, I kind of grew out of those feelings. I still subscribe to a very Pagan belief system, but one of my own. I feel that the "dark" and "light" really are more like shades of grey. We all have morals, some of which are always right (don't kill people, don't be an asshole) and some which are only right for some (eating meat for example). I strive to be a good person. I feel that others should do the same, but what path they take to get there is strictly their business. What some may see as dark, I may not, and vice, versa.

[The Void]

Well, thanks so far for the replies.

I simply find that Satanism and 'darker' belief systems are often misinterpreted by those on the outside, including many Pagans.

Even in this thread someone was poo pooed for defending it. I just think that it is NOT about doing 'good' or 'evil' but living a life based on Satanic or alternative philosophies takes a certain kind of person who is not going to subscribe to the illusions put forth by anyone per say, not even the Satanic movement itself! *lol*

I wish Satanism could come up with another name for those who seem to live their lives a certain way, responsible for their own actions and coosing to do whatever they want for positive or negative effects. I think those, such as myself, who explore their dark sides, eliminate naivete in the mere exploration of such. Just because you see that side, does not mean you jump in.

In fact, those who have touched the darkness know it is just as seductive a pull as all the 'angels' and 'goddesses' and whatnot of any other faith. ALL entities present themselves as a friend until you do something incongruent with your relationship to them.

Anyway, I am being purposefully vague so as to not get into my personal experiences, because the whole point I was trying to make was that I see discrimination of me from Pagans and Wiccans and the like. If I cannot clearly define myself, which I do NOT, they get all antsy just like any Xtian would about who I am and what I might do to them. To me, it's laughable. If I am 'evil' (oh my *lol*) then just like you wouldn't want to piss off anyone, don't piss me off. I am not going to strike out just because I am an ass for the sake of striking out at others. THIS is what most do not understand. I'm not some evil machine flailing about with my evil ways, delivering evilness all over to everyone. *LMAO*

I have to just sit in circles of people spouting crunchy goodness and fluffiness, and more often than not, remain silent since my ideas and opinions rock their worlds. Oh well *shrugs* I do like the Pagan community, and mingle in it, and respect their beliefs (yes, even though I said crunchy and fluffy) but I wish my way of life could be seen as MY way and leave it at that. I never say anything to impose on people, I merely present a different p.o.v.

I simply believe there is NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

yet, I find that even as progressive as Pagans claim to be, they still hold their truths to be absolute sometimes.

[pomba gira]

Are you speaking about pagens, or christians?  As I see it many of both refuse to admit their dark side.  The "dark side" is a natural part of life.  You can't have one without the other, kind of like the ying yang symbol.  Although if you take into account that good/evil right/wrong are just perspectives and do not really exist.  Then that symbol should just be a grey dot.

As far as the laws go governing the religions (three fold law etc...), well thats just the (can't think of the word, means the rules of how that particular thing operates, whatever the thing is). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, they certainly don't exist in Tao... I have never seen a definition of the yin/yang concept that included "good/evil" or "right/wrong". The whole idea is that natural forces counterbalance each other and are necessary to each other... right/wrong- good/evil are human concepts that simply don't apply to the natural world.

This is the main reason my own spiritual affinity is more with the Afro-Caribbean traditions- they seem more grounded in reality, and more acknowledging that when we step into the realm ov the divine, we leave behind human considerations like "good & evil".

BTW is "operative principle" the term you're looking for?

[The Void]

"The whole idea is that natural forces counterbalance each other and are necessary to each other... right/wrong- good/evil are human concepts that simply don't apply to the natural world."

Bingo! Yes. Thank you for putting it so well.

[The_Dark]

Well, they certainly don't exist in Tao... I have never seen a definition of the yin/yang concept that included "good/evil" or "right/wrong". The whole idea is that natural forces counterbalance each other and are necessary to each other... right/wrong- good/evil are human concepts that simply don't apply to the natural world.

Perhaps you should read the I Ching, the basis or Taoism (The Way). A good translation of it will include a rather long explination of Yin Yang. Good/Evil and Right/Wrong are mentioned quit a bit. Mostly it's about a balance of the two. You also have to read about ancient Chinese culture. Black was the color of "good" and white the color of "evil". A balanced man is neither. A proper Ying Yang has a spot of black in the white and a spot of white in the black, as an example that nothing is wholly good or wholly evil. There is far more to it than most people ever bother to read about.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Damn. That's presumptive & snobbish.

Maybe it's because they/we are well the opposite of naive and have simply found a way that works better for us - a different way.

No less spiritual than choosing a different path, far from it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how is this different from Satanism? Do as you will, harm none? I'm sorry but I just don't follow. Some cultures believe that drinking from the skulls of their slain will give them the Spirit of that person. This is their path. My point has changed though, and I no longer wish to pursue this line of logic.

So lets try this:

If pagans don't want to be classified with Satanists, and they definitely don't want to be associated with Christians, then why do they let themselves be? Is the opinions of others crucial to your faith? Seems like a weak faith to me, but hey maybe I'm being presumptious and snobbish.

On another note, Christ died for you on the cross and everyone else. He accepted everyone for who they were despite the teachings of the Churches afterwards. To me I'd rather be an outcast Christian that the Churches hate, than find a religion that works where I feel accepted. Maybe thats just me though. I certainly won't reject the man who died for me though, who is coming back soon, just to satisfy my insecurities about being a misfit. I'd rather be alone than burn personally.

Whatever helps you sleep at night though. If you want to be a great pagan, than follow the religion. No one else's opinion should effect your faith or your practice.

P.S. I'm not a big fan of man written Dogma either. I walked away from Catholicism and into isolation for good reasons.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Perhaps you should read the I Ching, the basis or Taoism (The Way). A good translation of it will include a rather long explination of Yin Yang. Good/Evil and Right/Wrong are mentioned quit a bit. Mostly it's about a balance of the two. You also have to read about ancient Chinese culture. Black was the color of "good" and white the color of "evil". A balanced man is neither. A proper Ying Yang has a spot of black in the white and a spot of white in the black, as an example that nothing is wholly good or wholly evil.  There is far more to it than most people ever bother to read about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, great post. Exactly. A Taoist is aware of such things as good and evil, but realizes that these are just two sides of the same coin. The end result of these two things existing is neither good nor evil, but some third and totally separate thing. I like to call that thing God.

[Guest Game of Chance]

If pagans don't want to be classified with Satanists, and they definitely don't want to be associated with Christians, then why do they let themselves be?  Is the opinions of others crucial to your faith?  Seems like a weak faith to me, but hey maybe I'm being presumptious and snobbish.

On another note, Christ died for you on the cross and everyone else.  He accepted everyone for who they were despite the teachings of the Churches afterwards.  To me I'd rather be an outcast Christian that the Churches hate, than find a religion that works where I feel accepted.  Maybe thats just me though.  I certainly won't reject the man who died for me though, who is coming back soon, just to satisfy my insecurities about being a misfit.  I'd rather be alone than burn personally.

Whatever helps you sleep at night though.  If you want to be a great pagan, than follow the religion.  No one else's opinion should effect your faith or your practice.

P.S.  I'm not a big fan of man written Dogma either.  I walked away from Catholicism and into isolation for good reasons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are being extremely presumptious and snobbish. All religions that I'm aware of, from Christianity to Paganism all have the same one kernel of Truth. To unite the microcosm (you, your spirit) with the macrocosm (the whole, or the Tao) But what makes one faith weaker than the other?

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

You are being extremely presumptious and snobbish.  All religions that I'm aware of, from Christianity to Paganism all have the same one kernel of Truth.  To unite the microcosm (you, your spirit) with the macrocosm (the whole, or the Tao)  But what makes one faith weaker than the other?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How certain you are of it would be my best answer. I'm not here to flame or bash anyone, but I don't think someone's belief in something or the practice of their religion should be dependent upon the acceptance of others, and thats pretty much what I'm getting from the topic of this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong in this though.

[Guest Game of Chance]

How certain you are of it would be my best answer.  I'm not here to flame or bash anyone, but I don't think someone's belief in something or the practice of their religion should be dependent upon the acceptance of others, and thats pretty much what I'm getting from the topic of this thread.  Correct me if I'm wrong in this though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A couple of reasons, actually. If you want to bring reason into it, that is. As a student of all religious philosophies, I have noticed that the central theme of all religions (and most impartial students of religion would agree), is uniting the lower (earthly) self, with that of the Godhead. Call it Christ, IHVH, Buddha, Allah, Krsna, whatever. I choose to call it Ra-Hoor-Khuit, or if its easier, the Tao. It doesn't matter. Its all the same thing. That's the rational explanation.

"Devil or God, to me! To me!"

The irrational explanation and the one that provides certainty, not faith, is direct experience in using all of these road maps (religious philosophies) through yoga and ceremonial magick. You might call it prayer, I call it scientific experiment. That's it bro, I don't feel comfortable posting my magickal diaries to the web, but if we get a chance to meet and know each other, maybe I'll share sometime.

I would agree with you there, that certainly there does seem to be the mentality of the "joiner" within certain religious or psuedo-religious circles. But that's no reason to contest that it is not their Will to be a "joiner".

[Steven]

Chance.... that blanket statement of all religions having the same kernel or core regarding the unification of the human spirit to the godhead seems rather......overstated and generalized (to me).

That's like saying all Republicans must eat food to survive, or all Witches have a tendency to lay down and go to sleep when they become tired.

it's just not that simple, although on the surface - you can allude to what seems obvious.

- Steven

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

While I wouldn't disagree with people trying to become closer to God (by whichever name you give him), I do tend to feel that too many people use spirituality to feel better about themselves and their lives, rather than seeking out meaning and truth. Spirituality is not meant to be a crutch to feel good or to feel like you have something or belong. Its meant to seek truth, and learn the design of the universe and life itself. Treating the spirit world otherwise is very dangerous. Its kind of like disrespecting the Earth, only to a greater extent. I would enjoy any conversation regarding this topic in person though. I'm up at city club quite frequently.

Where the "dark side" is concerned, I don't see any reason why someone should be uncomfortable or afraid. Its important to know how the dark forces in this world work. Admitedly, things of this nature always peak my curiousity.

[Steven]

This topic (Satanism) strikes a resonant chord with me. I watch people attempt to define it, to define evil, seperate it from darkeness, re-define, re-christen, re-work it till it is simply "another way, another form of spirituality".... Let me tell you about Satanism Pickle....

When I was 16 two devout Satanists came to my Mother's home. One of them (Barry) lived in the house just behind hers.

They had been breaking in to her home for months and stealing personal items, items that contained hair, blood, sweat, and sexual energy. There was a process to the thefts. No money was ever taken, no jewlery, nothing of value - only personal items.

On this night these two Satanists cut her phone lines and came into her home to rape and kill her. They attempted to do so - but she got away from them and raced down the street. So they slaughtered her Dog, spread it's entrails down the hallway and on the back porch, and painted runes on the walls in the dogs blood. They destroyed everything she owned, and left her Bible on the mantle with the cross inverted. This is what I came home to in the middle of the night. Try that yourslef, by yourself, at age 16. Follow the dog guts down the hall and look at the blood on the walls. Nobody's home, but there is broken glass everywhere and blood and a slughtered dog on the patio. Tell me about the Ying Yang of that shit. But make sure you tell me in the hallway where you can smell what I smelled and step in what I stepped in.

When they were arrested - the police did not want to prosecute them for the crime they were attempting to commit. This town (Arcadia, Ca) was a wealthy and influential community - no Satanist freaks live here. So they were charged with fucking burglary. One man got three mothns. The other got sent to a psychiatric hospital, where he got out less than a year later and now runs a successful machine shop with his father. When it came time for the arraignment this dude's girlfriend kept screaming that it was all a lie and that none of it happened. But she wasent there.

Tell you what though - there's blind faith for you. And power.

While in Jail he called me twice to threaten me, and promised me that I would be sacrificed and skinned alive if I continued to press the police. He did this, because he discoverd that I had broken into his home after his arrest. He told me he had "power" that would prevent him from being incarcerated, and power that would allow him to watch me. His attempt to murder my mother - was also for power. In jail they lost him twice on the day of the arraignment - they had no idea where their prisoner was. Somehow he twice missed the Bus. And his Lawyer had me removed from the courtroom when Barry finnally did show up.

When I broke into his home, I found the rifle they shot the dog with, a bloody knife, White Supremacy paperwork and correspondence from the midwest, human bones, a black mass on Videotape wich is fucking gross and insane and perverse, amyl nitrate, and many of his hand written written books of shadows.

All of this I found after the cops swept his place. Power to prevent incarceration. It was working.

In his home - I felt real evil for the first time. I wanted to vomit the entire time I was in there. In my head it sounded like a million flies buzzing all around me, and whispers, and threats and there was an insane pressure on my chest and a depth of fear I had never felt before. And it fucked with me for many years and I could not break it's effect until I was well into my adult life and people began to spiritually intercede for me. In my home I began to hear voices, saw stuff move, had the covers yanked over my head, all the seemingly "lightweight" Ghost story junk people talk about when lighting candles. And I had dreams - extremely vivid and menacing. And I knew the source of all of it.

The intercession worked, but obviously, the anger is still there, and it changed me forever.

All of you can read Anton Levy or Crowley or read about Richard Ramirez or watch that stuff on TV and very safely comment from a distance and categorize it. That's easy for you scholars.

But unless you've seen it for real, and have been threatened by it for real, you have no idea whatsoever the depth of the left hand side - you only know the titillating promises of the beginning. If you saw what I saw up close, you would vomit on your shoes.

That is the reality of the dark side Pickle. The devout end of it - is exactly that - dark. There's no fucking Tao or Yin Yang about any of it. It is exactly what the Bible says it is. But like you said - you "see no reason to be uncomfortable or afraid of it."

That's because you've never seen it.

Or broke into it's home and let it surround you.

Did you know that Demons and The Nephilim speak your name out loud? They know you better than you know yourself, because they watch. And they know if you will one day grow to oppose them, because they are not bound by time and matter like we are - they move thru both spectrums from an indefinite foundation. Some of us they laugh at, some of us they entertain, and some of us they hunt. But all of them lie, and all of them are fallen.

[Guest Game of Chance]

While I wouldn't disagree with people trying to become closer to God (by whichever name you give him), I do tend to feel that too many people use spirituality to feel better about themselves and their lives, rather than seeking out meaning and truth.  Spirituality is not meant to be a crutch to feel good or to feel like you have something or belong.  Its meant to seek truth, and learn the design of the universe and life itself.  Treating the spirit world otherwise is very dangerous.  Its kind of like disrespecting the Earth, only to a greater extent.  I would enjoy any conversation regarding this topic in person though.  I'm up at city club quite frequently.

Where the "dark side" is concerned, I don't see any reason why someone should be uncomfortable or afraid.  Its important to know how the dark forces in this world work.  Admitedly, things of this nature always peak my curiousity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Definitely man, sounds like we could have a conversation or two...maybe over those whiskeys i told TomCat I'd do with him. I think you're right about people seeking crutches in life, but I think this is typically more with religion rather than spirituality. There are a lot of armchair christians (or for that matter any religion) out there who have no real understanding of the message.

I'll try to make it up there, but with the holiday weekend it might be tough.

[Guest Game of Chance]

This topic (Satanism) strikes a resonant chord with me.  I watch people attempt to define it, to define evil, seperate it from darkeness, re-define, re-christen, re-work it till it is simply "another way, another form of spirituality"....  Let me tell you about Satanism Pickle....

When I was 16 two devout Satanists came to my Mother's home.  One of them (Barry) lived in the house just behind hers. 

They had been breaking in to her home for months and stealing personal items, items that contained hair, blood, sweat, and sexual energy.  There was a process to the thefts.  No money was ever taken, no jewlery, nothing of value - only personal items.

On this night these two Satanists cut her phone lines and came into her home to rape and kill her.  They attempted to do so - but she got away from them and raced down the street.  So they slaughtered her Dog, spread it's entrails down the hallway and on the back porch, and painted runes on the walls in the dogs blood.  They destroyed everything she owned, and left her Bible on the mantle with the cross inverted.  This is what I came home to in the middle of the night.  Try that yourslef, by yourself, at age 16.  Follow the dog guts down the hall and look at the blood on the walls.  Nobody's home, but there is broken glass everywhere and blood and a slughtered dog on the patio.  Tell me about the Ying Yang of that shit.  But make sure you tell me in the hallway where you can smell what I smelled and step in what I stepped in.

When they were arrested - the police did not want to prosecute them for the crime they were attempting to commit.  This town (Arcadia, Ca) was a wealthy and influential community - no Satanist freaks  live here.  So they were charged with fucking burglary.  One man got three mothns.  The other got sent to a psychiatric hospital, where he got out less than a year later and now runs a successful machine shop with his father.  When it came time for the arraignment this dude's girlfriend kept screaming that it was all a lie and that none of it happened.  But she wasent there. 

Tell you what though - there's blind faith for you.  And power.

While in Jail he called me twice to threaten me, and promised me that I would be sacrificed and skinned alive if I continued to press the police.  He did this, because he discoverd that I had broken into his home after his arrest.  He told me he had "power" that would prevent him from being incarcerated, and power that would allow him to watch me.  His attempt to murder my mother - was also for power.  In jail they lost him twice on the day of the arraignment - they had no idea where their prisoner was.  Somehow he twice missed the Bus.  And his Lawyer had me removed from the courtroom when Barry finnally did show up.

When I broke into his home, I found the rifle they shot the dog with, a bloody knife, White Supremacy paperwork and correspondence from the midwest, human bones, a black mass on Videotape wich is fucking gross and insane and perverse, amyl nitrate, and many of his hand written written books of shadows.

All of this I found after the cops swept his place.  Power to prevent incarceration.  It was working. 

In his home - I felt real evil for the first time.  I wanted to vomit the entire time I was in there.  In my head it sounded like a million flies buzzing all around me, and whispers, and threats and there was an insane pressure on my chest and a depth of fear I had never felt before.  And it fucked with me for many years and I could not break it's effect until I was well into my adult life and people began to spiritually intercede for me.  In my home I began to hear voices, saw stuff move, had the covers yanked over my head, all the seemingly "lightweight" Ghost story junk people talk about when lighting candles.  And I had dreams - extremely vivid and menacing.  And I knew the source of all of it.

The intercession worked, but obviously, the anger is still there, and it changed me forever.

All of you can read Anton Levy or Crowley or read about Richard Ramirez or watch that stuff on TV and very safely comment from a distance and categorize it.  That's easy for you scholars.

But unless you've seen it for real, and have been threatened by it for real, you have no idea whatsoever the depth of the left hand side - you only know the titillating promises of the beginning.  If you saw what I saw up close, you would vomit on your shoes. 

That is the reality of the dark side Pickle.  The devout end of it - is exactly that - dark.  There's no fucking Tao or Yin Yang about any of it.  It is exactly what the Bible says it is.  But like you said - you "see no reason to be uncomfortable or afraid of it."

That's because you've never seen it.

Or broke into it's home and let it surround you.

Did you know that Demons and The Nephilim speak your name out loud?  They know you better than you know yourself, because they watch.  And they know if you will one day grow to oppose them, because they are not bound by time and matter like we are - they move thru both spectrums from an indefinite foundation.  Some of us they laugh at, some of us they entertain, and some of us they hunt.  But all of them lie, and all of them are fallen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that's a pretty crazy story, I can't imagine what that must have been like. Your poor mother, when reading your story I began to relate to it as if it were my own mother.

l'll tell you though, there is a big difference between a mystic who studies some of Crowley's yoga texts and a Satanist. Not a conversation I want to get into, but it sounds like there's a misunderstanding about people who would do that sort of thing.

Just a quick clarification, before I get a bad name for myself. I study science and philosophy. When I speak of magick, this is what I'm referring to.