Are some Pagans uncomfortable with-the dark side?

[Fierce Critter]

So how is this different from Satanism?  Do as you will, harm none? <<<SNIP>>> I walked away from Catholicism and into isolation for good reasons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ummm... Not sure why you quoted ME when you composed your response above (snipped 'cause I see no need to quote the entire thing).

Mistake, maybe? Hit the "quote" button on the wrong post?

[FarrIL]

In my opinion, this is how I feel about the issue of discussing Wicca/Pagan rituals and the like.

While I am a newbie myself, parusing through Druidism whenever I pick up my book, I hear about how little girls are toying with things they have no comprehension of. They dont know what they're doing, they just read the directions.

As far as morals go, I am one of those who believe in "Do unto others as they do unto you." Someone hurts me/ my kin, my spiteful nature runs rabid and rampant until my point is gotten across. If that ends up being bad kharma for me, my response is "Well, they started it."

Mind you, I've been accused of being Satanic, just because I admitted to reading up on Druidism. I also live under the roof of two narrow-minded Bibled-thumpers. They are the ones who judge, not me. "Judge not lest ye be judged" Sorry, but I dont care if I go to Hell, we already are, we just dont realize it.

I dont cringe at many, if any aspects of things. I'm open-minded when someone comes to me, asing for advice on a dream they had where they were being chased by monsters. I ask them what the monster looked like, what was going on elsewhere, etc etc. But when it comes to sacrificing animals, the blood of virgins, etc, I turn my head and say "More power to ya but dont ask me to participate, because I wont." That, to me, is wrong.

For my practices, I burn incense and go into a sort of meditation. That has, thus far, been a more frequent practice than anything else, as infrequent said practice may be. I dont do it everyday, but still, it's become a little ritual I do. Personally, it's helped me calm my nerves.

But, as a person who was raised Christian, now reading up on Druidism (( whilst respecting the Church in the sense of not doing anything sacreligious.... i.e. upside-down crosses being hung, wearing the Star of Baphomet, etc )), I have no real definite religion. Call me athiest or Satanic if you wish, I am what I am and I'd rather you not judge me til you look at things outside the box.

Thank you. <<;

[Homicidalheathen]

Well your still welcome in my space. Wouldn't discriminate against ya. Actually think you'd be interesting to chat with.

[Anyway, I am being purposefully vague so as to not get into my personal experiences, because the whole point I was trying to make was that I see discrimination of me from Pagans and Wiccans and the like. If I cannot clearly define myself, which I do NOT, they get all antsy just like any Xtian would about who I am and what I might do to them. To me, it's laughable. If I am 'evil' (oh my *lol*) then just like you wouldn't want to piss off anyone, don't piss me off. I am not going to strike out just because I am an ass for the sake of striking out at others.

[Steven]

I dont call anyone anything - I let them declare themselves. Barry did exactly that - I had met him before all of this - and I was not a Christian at this time - but when we met there was an immediate clash of spirits. My little brother and his teen friends had been hanging out with Barry prior to what went down.

I also beleive that most "dabblers" sincerely yet ignorantly seperate light from dark in their pursuits of things which are in general occultic. I know many have pleasurable experiences - yet I also beleive there is a beautiful side to evil and various degrees of involvment/empowerment. I also beleive that like smoking an occasional Joint - (of which I have smoked WAY more than an occasional) this path can quite often spiral deeper and deeper downward and darker and darker.

That's exactly how it worked for Barry (according to his mother and sister, who were christians). He did not wake up one morning with Beezlebub flying out of his ass. He became a dabbler and searcher in his early teens. By the time he was in his 20's - he was completely lost.

Barry wore the Satanic star. So do lots of people who claim to be Satanists, or simply cal themselves Pagans. I found pictures of my little brother wearing Barrys Star. Just like lots of armchair christians wear the crucifix I wear - only they'd cut and run at the first sign of trouble and they try to call themselves Christians.

The story is way more than just crazy dude - it was real, and it remained real for years afterward, and I was not spiritually inclined in any direction - yet spirits manifested all around me in an opressive manner for years. And what was my crime? How had I offended them? Should I have told them to "just go to the light" like that idiot chick on TV tells people to do when thye complain of violent spiritual encounters in their homes?

I beleive in demonic strongholds and territorial principalities like the bible teaches in the book of Daniel. Los Angeles, and Hollywood - are HUGE demonic strongholds. The evidence of it is everywhere - regardless of what you study or beleive - I've seen it on the streets and I've seen it in my own home. In Detroit - you have tremndous violence and despair. All big cities have this. But in LA - there is often a dark ceremonial twist to many things that go on and some of the most beautiful and wealthy people are involved in it.

And this too IS.... a religeous philosophy. I saw no ascencion to the Godhead in this. I simply saw a ruthless pursuit of personal empowerment regardless of teh cost.

By the way people....Barry is no the only Satanist I know. I've known many in California.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I dont call anyone anything - I let them declare themselves.  Barry did exactly that - I had met him before all of this - and I was not a Christian at this time - but when we met there was an immediate clash of spirits.  My little brother and his teen friends had been hanging out with Barry prior to what went down. 

I also beleive that most "dabblers" sincerely yet ignorantly seperate light from dark in their pursuits of things which are in general occultic.  I know many have pleasurable experiences - yet I also beleive there is a beautiful side to evil and various degrees of involvment/empowerment.  I also beleive that like smoking an occasional Joint - (of which I have smoked WAY more than an occasional) this path can quite often spiral deeper and deeper downward and darker and darker.

That's exactly how it worked for Barry (according to his mother and sister, who were christians).  He did not wake up one morning with Beezlebub flying out of his ass.  He became a dabbler and searcher in his early teens.  By the time he was in his 20's - he was completely lost.

Barry wore the Satanic star.  So do lots of people who claim to be Satanists, or simply cal themselves Pagans.  I found pictures of my little brother wearing Barrys Star.  Just like lots of armchair christians wear the crucifix I wear - only they'd cut and run at the first sign of trouble and they try to call themselves Christians. 

The story is way more than just crazy dude - it was real, and it remained real for years afterward, and I was not spiritually inclined in any direction - yet spirits manifested all around me in an opressive manner for years.  And what was my crime?  How had I offended them?  Should I have told them to "just go to the light" like that idiot chick on TV tells people to do when thye complain of violent spiritual encounters in their homes? 

I beleive in demonic strongholds and territorial principalities like the bible teaches in the book of Daniel.  Los Angeles, and Hollywood - are HUGE demonic strongholds.  The evidence of it is everywhere - regardless of what you study or beleive - I've seen it on the streets and I've seen it in my own home.  In Detroit - you have tremndous violence and despair.  All big cities have this.  But in LA - there is often a dark ceremonial twist to many things that go on and some of the most beautiful and wealthy people are involved in it. 

And this too IS.... a religeous philosophy.  I saw no ascencion to the Godhead in this.  I simply saw a ruthless pursuit of personal empowerment regardless of teh cost.

By the way people....Barry is no the only Satanist I know.  I've known many in California.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!

Sounds to me like they have no consideration whatsover of the Godhead (Macrocosm). It also sounds to me like you are speaking on a topic that maybe not be an area of expertise for you. Sounds like a couple of crazies that you've met have tainted your entire experience.

Elementals (spirits, demons, angels, whatever) are all microcosmic entities. In the Qabalah, this is referred to as Yetzirah, or the spirit world. Again, not a conversation I'd like to get into. I think its great that you choose not to pursue the Great Work, but I'll be damned if you tell me not to.

Love is the law, love under will.

[Steven]

Then tell me about the Great Work. And please....dont "be damned", as I've never damned anyone.

And why your source of reference (Qabalah) regarding the spirit world is intrinsically more credible than an old dusty bible that wont go away after thousands of years. And why your set of principles are apparently quite laudible but mine seem to be entirely dismissable?

And - why my experiences lack merit, based on just a couple of crazies - when I've known many more than just a couple pf crazies.

And then please add to that - your explanation of years of demonic (my feeble interpretation) activity in several of my homes following the clash with said crazies.

ANd then finnally - explain to me why it is that you are an authority and I lack expertise? Because I dont embrace the Qabalah?

Then tell me about you. Where have you been? what have you done?

[Guest Game of Chance]

Then tell me about the Great Work.  And please....dont "be damned", as I've never damned anyone.

And why your source of reference (Qabalah) regarding the spirit world is intrinsically more credible than an old dusty bible that wont go away after thousands of years.  And why your set of principles are apparently quite laudible but mine seem to be entirely dismissable?

And - why my experiences lack merit, based on just a couple of crazies -  when I've known many more than just a couple pf crazies.

And then please add to that - your explanation of years of demonic (my feeble interpretation) activity in several of my homes following the clash with said crazies.

ANd then finnally - explain to me why it is that you are an authority and I lack expertise?  Because I dont embrace the Qabalah? 

Then tell me about you.  Where have you been?  what have you done?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

93,

The Qabalah is just a convenient road map that you can use for any spiritual quest, whatever your poison. I didn't care for you telling me (or the rest of the board) that exploring spirituality (whichever way you decide to lean) is dangerous. I think its more dangerous to hide behind your morals and dogma and not experience all that you can.

As far as where I've been or what I've done, I've been around for a long time. There are a couple of people on this board who know me personally. Why don't you ask them instead?

But if you want to hear it from me, the reason why is that I have been actively studying religious philosophies with one goal in mind. The completion of the Great Work. Uniting microcosm and macrocosm. Doesn't make me great, but it does make me knowledgeable.

93/93

[Scary Guy]

Well, they certainly don't exist in Tao... I have never seen a definition of the yin/yang concept that included "good/evil" or "right/wrong".  The whole idea is that natural forces counterbalance each other and are necessary to each other... right/wrong- good/evil are human concepts that simply don't apply to the natural world.

This is the main reason my own spiritual affinity is more with the Afro-Caribbean traditions- they seem more grounded in reality, and more acknowledging that when we step into the realm ov the divine, we leave behind human considerations like "good & evil".

BTW is "operative principle" the term you're looking for?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats kind of what I said, kinda. But most people I've met (who don't know religions well) seem to think it means there is a little bad in good and a little good in bad. Which a grey dot would represent too if you take the black and white of the symbol and mix them togeather completely (or pink if red/white)

Being an atheist though to me it is more of a scientific thing. Spirituality still exists but it is not directed to any greater power. I suppose the concept of gia is the best one...

BTW that term works nicely, though it wasn't the wording I had in mind.

[FarrIL]

HomicidalHeathen: I was put through the ringer by a stranger while on my way to Geology. He asked me these questions........

"Have you lied before?"

"Yes"

"Then that makes you a liar." "Have you stolen anything, even something small like a paperclip?"

"Nothing comes to mind but I probably have."

"Then that makes you a thief." "Have you ever hated someone?"

"Yes."

"Then when you hate someone, it means you've already murdered them in your heart. You're going to Hell. Are you afraid?"

"Hun, we're already living in Hell, so I'm not worried. You'd have to split my soul at least 3 ways to accomodate it."

Then he accuses me of taking the Lord's name in vain. Which I therefore said I didnt. I only said that I believed we were living in Hell. Then he asked me if I worshipped that. (( How the Hell can you worship *living* in Hell? Please define that for me ))

I'm sorry, but when someone says that crap to me, it reminds me just how desperate Christians are getting. It's hilarious. I find it so amusing that people act like that, just to scare people into turning others to the Christian way.

Might I remind all those "Devout" Christians that the Bible is nothing but the word of Man who was desperate to find a quick answer to every question in the book. Yet....... said Bible only left them with more questions.

[Steven]

Farril - that guy that accosted you was a DICK. ....ssssooooooo emberrassing.

I've been accosted like that myself - coming out of the liquor store - by a young 20's kid who was all fired up by his preacher. He started reading me the riot act and when I told him I was a "beleiver" he started hassling me about my tattoos and the six pack of Heineken in my hand and the cigarette I was smoking. His quote to me was "if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - then it's a duck" So this was me - Joe Christian, being accosted by him - young fiery idiot christian. And what was my jesus like response? I was pissed and I told him:

"first of all you little fucker - you sound like a tape recorder of your Pastor's fire and brimstone sunday services. You dont know shit about me - you aint a prophet and you dont know where I've been, what Go'd calling is on my life or anything about my testimony - and you never had the common decency to ask me any questions of merit let alone listen to me - therefore you are full of shit and you do more damage to Christ then you will ever do good. You have NO IDEA what your preaching about because you havent lived it and you havent lived it because you let other people plot your course for you and the next time you try to confront me on the street you'd better bring your preacher so I can tell him he's a pussy too"

wasent my best day - but I regret none of it. I hate it when this stuff happens and it happens all the time. But Christ hated it too.

see ya.

Steven

[Scary Guy]

Ha, that kid more than deserved everything you said to him, maybe now he'll pull his head out of his ass.

[Steven]

yeah but he probably wont. His Pastor taught him well. In truth, in my journeys of being a beleiver I can only cite a handful that I beleive were the real McCoy. The rest were just religeous.

[FarrIL]

Steven......... you kick ass. =D

Yeah, my problem is that I dont bark back. I just laugh about it later.

Maybe I should try that the next time around....... we'll see what happens. =3

[Steven]

Speak your mind Farril...always speak your mind - its not cool to be on the receiving end of some self-rightous zealot's ignorant agenda, and this was never what God intended. People get ahold of a good thing...and fuck it up.

And remember you can always ask them a couple of questions and move along:

"Who did Christ love? The Sanhedrin or the Whore?...and who killed him? The Sanhedrin or The Whore? And who did YOU die for today CHRISTIAN ?"

Farrill -

these guys supposedly know the text inside the Bible, but they've never once let the message sink in, all they did was memorize rhetoric, therefore they missed the intention outright. To every seemingly hardcore acusation about sin and punishment - there is the gift of grace and forgiveness and love and mercy and charity and kindness and goodness also described and encouraged and exmplified. In other words - there is balance - it has always been there - but few fail to recognize the balance which is a shame.

It's like having a lousy teacher in college or high school. Just because somone is credentiald does not mean that they have the werewithall to really TEACH.

There is a huge difference between knowledge and wisdom, huge. Knowledge is just an accumulation of data - anyone can accquire knowledge. But wisdom exemplifies itself where the rubber meets the road - in real life situations - and in the everyday quality of a persons life. Personally I still beleive that the Bible does give wisdom and answers many questions - but not if your using it to intellectually elevate yourself or self righteouslly conquer others....it was never designed for that.

And your right - you DO see desperation in many many bible thumpers. They are desperate to elevate themselves and earn biblical brownie points in heaven - which is all bullshit. They dont get it - they never got it - they waste air and energy and make the lives of the truly devout even harder and the lives of others who might have been interested tainted. They are truly Satan's minions, an Army of stupid asses with Bibles. Remember in the Bible - Satan quoted scripture too....

Steven

[Scary Guy]

I can't find the quote but I don't really care to google it at the moment.

Was watching comedy central one time and a guy was talking about all the christans, and their crosses, and then said "if the seccond coming actually happens thats the last thing that he's ever going to want to see" or something like that.

Saw Dogma on there (again) on Saturday. Just wanted to point out that that is an awesome movie.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

To respond to The Void's topic:

On the surface it does seem to be a bit of a contradiction from a "tolerance" standpoint, but when a basic tenant of most pagans (at least the ones that i know) does include at least some sort of ethical code, that covers "good and bad behavior" its difficult i think for people to just turn their heads and look the other way when they thing something is being done that is particularly "bad".

But generally its rare to find people that fully and totally are "accepting of people as they are without any attempt at correction regardless of intent or reasons" many people will say they are this way, but its rare.

Is it better to just let people that you feel are doing something wrong, just go ahead and let them do it? Should you just let them "be themselves"? Often the viewpoint is something such as "let them be themselves as long as they don't harm anyone else" (the wiccan rede being an example)

There's times when i feel you should just "let them be" and other times when i don't think that's the best course to take depending on the situation. Some times i do feel its right to "set someone straight" , but when that is exactly is a huge one of these "?" at times.

Im not sure i know anyone that doesn't have at least some sort of vague ethical code that at least minimally includes trying to influence the behavior of others , when they think that behavior is incorrect. Often you'll hear a version of "live and let live" (in its many forms) This is considered by some to be kindness/love, considered to by others to be uncaring/iresponsible. Is trying to influence others to not do what you fell is "wrong" being selfish and intolerant , or is being loving and caring?

I also tend to think that the fact that the person that your "trying to help" is annoyed by that help, probably shouldn't factor into the "right or wrong" of it as heavily as it does for many people. (I'll spare everyone the endless quotations from various sources)

There's an cornucopia of situations it could apply to as to what is " the proper level of tolerance" and what type of moral / ethical yardstick to use to make that decision. Life unfortunately tends to be messy and its hard to but "tolerance" and "acceptance" in black and white terms.

I could quote platitudes and random passion filled passages from various texts till im blue in the face but never really totally felt like i found "the answer". I've been very convinced that i had "the answer" at times in my life, but later information has changed my viewpoint. I think i far to often believe, what i want to believe and what feels "comfortable" rather than what emotion, reason and experience combined would tell me.

I've got my current "best , most romantic sounding emotional guess" and then "what my reason tells me is more likely" then "what my experience tells me" . Often they conflict, contrast and pull in different directions. Emotion tends to be the strongest ethical compass for me, but that doesn't necessarily mean its the most correct.

Im currently with someone that is very accepting (sometimes i feel maybe a bit overly so), and myself i think i tend to be overly analytical and guarded with my understanding/acceptance, despite being told by some that im "too accepting". Maybe she'll rub off on me or vice versa and we'll end up better for it. Bah fuck that i already know =)

[Sybil]

To respond to The Void's topic:

On the surface it does seem to be a bit of a contradiction from a "tolerance" standpoint, but when a basic tenant of most pagans (at least the ones that i know) does include at least some sort of ethical code, that covers "good and bad behavior" its difficult i think for people to just turn their heads and look the other way when they thing something is being done that is particularly "bad".

But generally its rare to find people that fully and totally are "accepting  of people as they are without any attempt at correction regardless of intent or reasons"  many people will say they are this way, but its rare.

Is it better to just let people that you feel are doing something wrong, just go ahead and let them do it?  Should you just let them "be themselves"?  Often the viewpoint is something such as "let them be themselves as long as they don't harm anyone else"  (the wiccan rede being an example)

There's times when i feel you should just "let them be" and other times when i don't think that's the best course to take depending on the situation.  Some times i do feel its right to "set someone straight" , but when that is exactly is a huge one of these "?"  at times.

Im not sure i know anyone that doesn't have at least some sort of vague ethical code that at least minimally includes trying to influence the behavior of others , when they think that behavior is incorrect.  Often you'll hear a version of "live and let live" (in its many forms)  This is considered by some to be kindness/love, considered to by others to be uncaring/iresponsible.  Is trying to influence others to not do what you fell is "wrong"  being selfish and intolerant , or is being loving and caring? 

I also tend to think that the fact that the person that your "trying to help" is annoyed by that help, probably shouldn't factor into the "right or wrong" of it as heavily as it does for many people.  (I'll spare everyone the endless quotations from various sources)

There's an cornucopia of situations it could apply to as to what is " the proper level of tolerance" and what type of moral / ethical  yardstick to use to make that decision.  Life unfortunately tends to be messy and its hard to but "tolerance" and "acceptance"  in black and white terms.

I could quote platitudes and random passion filled passages from various texts till im blue in the face but never really totally felt like i found  "the answer".  I've been very convinced that i had "the answer" at times in my life, but later information has changed my viewpoint.  I think i far to often believe, what i want to believe and what feels "comfortable" rather than what emotion, reason and experience combined would tell me.   

I've got my current "best , most romantic sounding emotional guess" and then "what my reason tells me is more likely" then  "what my experience tells  me" .  Often they conflict, contrast and pull in different directions.  Emotion tends to be the strongest ethical compass for me, but that doesn't necessarily mean its the most correct. 

Im currently with someone that is very accepting  (sometimes i feel maybe a bit overly so), and myself i think i tend to be overly analytical and guarded with my understanding/acceptance, despite being told by some that im "too accepting". Maybe she'll rub off on me or vice versa and we'll end up better for it.  Bah fuck that i already know  =)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:whistling **smooch** (i will put my coffee cup and 2 cents down on the table, soon, also.. just wanted to smooch your cheek.. sorry i butted in on somethin important to show affection.. it had to be done, tho) :whistling

[Guest Game of Chance]

To respond to The Void's topic:

On the surface it does seem to be a bit of a contradiction from a "tolerance" standpoint, but when a basic tenant of most pagans (at least the ones that i know) does include at least some sort of ethical code, that covers "good and bad behavior" its difficult i think for people to just turn their heads and look the other way when they thing something is being done that is particularly "bad".

But generally its rare to find people that fully and totally are "accepting  of people as they are without any attempt at correction regardless of intent or reasons"  many people will say they are this way, but its rare.

Is it better to just let people that you feel are doing something wrong, just go ahead and let them do it?  Should you just let them "be themselves"?  Often the viewpoint is something such as "let them be themselves as long as they don't harm anyone else"  (the wiccan rede being an example)

There's times when i feel you should just "let them be" and other times when i don't think that's the best course to take depending on the situation.  Some times i do feel its right to "set someone straight" , but when that is exactly is a huge one of these "?"  at times.

Im not sure i know anyone that doesn't have at least some sort of vague ethical code that at least minimally includes trying to influence the behavior of others , when they think that behavior is incorrect.  Often you'll hear a version of "live and let live" (in its many forms)  This is considered by some to be kindness/love, considered to by others to be uncaring/iresponsible.  Is trying to influence others to not do what you fell is "wrong"  being selfish and intolerant , or is being loving and caring? 

I also tend to think that the fact that the person that your "trying to help" is annoyed by that help, probably shouldn't factor into the "right or wrong" of it as heavily as it does for many people.  (I'll spare everyone the endless quotations from various sources)

There's an cornucopia of situations it could apply to as to what is " the proper level of tolerance" and what type of moral / ethical  yardstick to use to make that decision.  Life unfortunately tends to be messy and its hard to but "tolerance" and "acceptance"  in black and white terms.

I could quote platitudes and random passion filled passages from various texts till im blue in the face but never really totally felt like i found  "the answer".  I've been very convinced that i had "the answer" at times in my life, but later information has changed my viewpoint.  I think i far to often believe, what i want to believe and what feels "comfortable" rather than what emotion, reason and experience combined would tell me.   

I've got my current "best , most romantic sounding emotional guess" and then "what my reason tells me is more likely" then  "what my experience tells  me" .  Often they conflict, contrast and pull in different directions.  Emotion tends to be the strongest ethical compass for me, but that doesn't necessarily mean its the most correct. 

Im currently with someone that is very accepting  (sometimes i feel maybe a bit overly so), and myself i think i tend to be overly analytical and guarded with my understanding/acceptance, despite being told by some that im "too accepting". Maybe she'll rub off on me or vice versa and we'll end up better for it.  Bah fuck that i already know  =)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great post. But I wonder sometimes if my "helping people" you are actually doing them a disservice. I think that for anyone to have any true understanding of any topic whatsoever, the best medicine is direct experience. It may not be "what's best for them" (or so you may feel), but then again, who are you or anybody else to judge what's "right and wrong".

LOL I'm writing this before work, and I have to run, but I'll get into the Buddhist concepts of Dharma and Karma later today to further expound on this topic.

=)

[Steven]

**addressing SPirals post**

I liked this post, welll thought out and honest.

The cool thing (and the difference) about a group mechanizm such as this one that allows us all to chime in with ideals and ideas as opposed to attempting to directly "fix" somone else - is that there is an element of safety here. This is just frank discussion. It's not a personal one-on one help me session.

In my case, I have more friends who are not of my faith and reasoning than I do contemporaries and I have enjoyed that immensley because I get to hear new perspectives. But we have a sort of "code" with one another due to the intimacy we have (I dont have shallow relationships) where we love and trust one another before we decide on what we hear. That takes some time to develop but like this board - it creates an element of saftey and in fact we jokingly refer to my house as "the safe house".

But at the safe house - we tell the truth. I dont consistently adress my friends issues with a christianeze response. IN fact the only time I get "biblical" if you will, is when I'm asked directly to support my point of view or methods on a given subject. B ut I will often simply ask someone wrestling wtih an issue or stagnating:

"well....howz that workin for ya???"

I've been fortunate to enjoy many lengthy and meaty life-discussions around the barbecue (no pun intended) from asking that one simple question. I think most people want to talk, want to communicate, and even want a place to say "right now I just dont know" I know I want these things for myself and my own life.

And someitmes I dont need an answer from someone.... I just need a safe place to say it.

Steven

[Fierce Critter]

"well....howz that workin for ya???"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ahhh. A Dr. Phil'ism.

One that happens to work pretty well.

[Steven]

Yeah...but he got a TV show out of it, all I got was dinner and I still think that I came up with it first!!!

[Guest Game of Chance]

Great post.  But I wonder sometimes if my "helping people" you are actually doing them a disservice.  I think that for anyone to have any true understanding of any topic whatsoever, the best medicine is direct experience.  It may not be "what's best for them" (or so you may feel), but then again, who are you or anybody else to judge what's "right and wrong". 

LOL I'm writing this before work, and I have to run, but I'll get into the Buddhist concepts of Dharma and Karma later today to further expound on this topic.

=)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fuck that...what was I thinking this morning...lol meditative stupor...umm get me drunk and ask me about it at the bar.

[darkchaos215]

My point is that due to all the persecution that Pagans have had to endure, one would think they'd be more progressive in their thinking about acceptance of other ways, even left-hand path individuals or those in a more grey area of magick and philosophy.  I'm not feeling that in any pagan circle I seem to get involved in socially. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is really one of my pet peeves. When a majority of pagans are asked about their religion and evil and sacrificing babies they invaribly say "Oh, no we're not Satanists, we don't even believe in Satan." It really is a crucifixtion (pardon the pun) of another religion while trying to defend your own. Satanists have enough problems trying to deflect misinformation and negative stereotypes without another minorty relgion fueling the fire.

[The_Dark]

A lot of words. A great many words dancing around a subject. Good, Evil, Ethical Codes, Morals, Tolerance, Acceptance, Faith.... Yep, a lot of powerful words. They all boil down to "What I believe is..." None of them really answer the question at hand. Well, This is what I believe....

To those of you who want to follow a dark path and cant understand why others think that "wrong".

Start practicing acceptance yourself. Your doing something that most people think is "wrong" and is counter to thier Faith. Your surprised they dont pat you on the back and congratulate you for doing something they find morally repprehensable? Thats like poking yourself in the eye and then bitching because it hurt. Deal with it.

To those of you following a lighter path. You can't force someone to "do the right thing". Do you really think you can change someone's faith by looking down on them? Are you really sure your more "right" than they are? Really? What color is the sky in your world? You need to start accepting people for what they are too.

To all of you. Yeah well.. I lost my train of thought and therefore the point of this all.... bah. Just try to accept the fact that your going to have to tolerate other peoples beliefs until the day you die or the day someone finds an Absolute Truth, which ever comes first.