Michigan workplaces -- including bars and restaurants -- will go smokefree in May

[torn asunder]

Nice. Sorry we're so stupid.

The thing is, you didn't address any of the main points. All you did was remind us that smoking is unhealthy. Yes, it's obvious that you think that it's okay for the government to step outside its Constitutionally-limited bounds. I have yet to see a logical and reasoned argument as to why that should be and why each step in that direction does not open the door to future abuses of power.

not stupid at all, just apparently choosing to gloss over/ignore the points i was making, which i did in several posts, the biggest of which is that smokers have no right to force others to breathe their toxic chemicals (captive audience/workforce).

to make an absurd comparison, the next time someone blows smoke in my face, i have every right to swing my fist. if they "choose" to not get out of the way, it's their choice to be hit, right? i mean, they could just move away from me, right? it's their choice to stand there while i'm flailing my arms around, right?

[phee]

not stupid at all, just apparently choosing to gloss over/ignore the points i was making, which i did in several posts, the biggest of which is that smokers have no right to force others to breathe their toxic chemicals (captive audience/workforce).

to make an absurd comparison, the next time someone blows smoke in my face, i have every right to swing my fist. if they "choose" to not get out of the way, it's their choice to be hit, right? i mean, they could just move away from me, right? it's their choice to stand there while i'm flailing my arms around, right?

+1

[candyman]

not stupid at all, just apparently choosing to gloss over/ignore the points i was making, which i did in several posts, the biggest of which is that smokers have no right to force others to breathe their toxic chemicals (captive audience/workforce).

to make an absurd comparison, the next time someone blows smoke in my face, i have every right to swing my fist. if they "choose" to not get out of the way, it's their choice to be hit, right? i mean, they could just move away from me, right? it's their choice to stand there while i'm flailing my arms around, right?

Did ya ever ask someone to blow it in the other direction or stop smoking while you are sitting there? We may have cancer and alot of nicotine in our systems but we are not able to read minds yet...but we are working on it. Take offense at anything you want but if you put yourself in these situations you are BOTH to blame and you gotta work shit out...and no a smoker will not ask if its ok as long as you keep your mouth shut.

Again with the forcing. Ahhh...the bars have been this way for a while and people know what is going on. Yes I would actually like to see more non-smoking bars but not ALL non-smoking bars. You have no data, except that VERY raw stuff, that shows how much of these chemicals are in the air and what they are doing so say "toxic" all you want but that usually means something different. I am going to ask why YOU seems to gloss over the fact that some people really do like this and that some bars really do not want the ban...even that some workers smoke too! Is smoking good for me? No...no shit. Is the beer and alcohol at the bar good for me? No. Is anything at the bar good for me? No...we are not glossing stuff over its just that in the case of most bars we don't give a shit.

[TitsMcGee]

Did ya ever ask someone to blow it in the other direction or stop smoking while you are sitting there? We may have cancer and alot of nicotine in our systems but we are not able to read minds yet...but we are working on it. Take offense at anything you want but if you put yourself in these situations you are BOTH to blame and you gotta work shit out...and no a smoker will not ask if its ok as long as you keep your mouth shut.

......

Exactly! I know if I am in around a few people I don't know I always ask if they care if I have a smoke. If they would rather I don't smoke around them, I go outside to smoke or something. Nonsmokers if you don't like it, speak up. It's not rocket science. Smokers aren't going to know you are "deathly allergic" to smoke if you don't speak up, especially if you are in a bar/club situation.

[torn asunder]

*personally*, i think a lot of things should be banned in public places, like smoking and drinking, for example. of course, i also think that what one does in the privacy of one's own home is one's own business, and that included many of the currently illegal drugs they've "declared war" on. you wanna do crack? fine, do it in your house! you wanna drive after doing crack (while still under the influence), go to jail, big fine, because then you're endangering others. wanna smoke pot, drink, shoot heroin, snort coke? fine, do it in your house! ('your', meaning any private residence, not necessarily one you own.) wanna go out in public after doing any of those? fine, as long as you're not endangering others in doing so. if you do something that endangers others? big fine, go to jail.

that's what i *personally* think. of course, everyone knows we tried prohibition once before, and look how well that worked. if enough smokers and smokers' rights advocates get active enough, maybe they can change it. if they can, fine, i'll live with it. doesn't mean i'll be happy, but i will.

honestly, i'd like to see exemptions for smokers' clubs, certain bars/clubs/etc, (and especially your own car/house, i mean, wtf!?) but as far as i'm concerned, if a place has employees, i think this ban is fine. if you want to work there and don't smoke, you have to sign a waiver, or something. afterall, it's a workplace, and there are rules covering unhealthy work environments for every other industry, why not this one?

i also agree that it should be arranged like the licensing for liquor, so you can buy the ability to allow it, but i think that should be tied with requirements for proper air filtration, etc. that would be covered by health inspectors of some sort, and if you fail, you get your smokers' license revoked.

not that anyone cares about my opinion, but there it is.

[torn asunder]

Exactly! I know if I am in around a few people I don't know I always ask if they care if I have a smoke. If they would rather I don't smoke around them, I go outside to smoke or something. Nonsmokers if you don't like it, speak up. It's not rocket science. Smokers aren't going to know you are "deathly allergic" to smoke if you don't speak up, especially if you are in a bar/club situation.

the problem with asking someone not to smoke around you at a bar is that, even if 9 times out of 10 people are respectful about it, all it takes is you asking the wrong person on the wrong night, and you could end up in a physical confrontation over it, especially in a bar (i've had it happen). besides, as things stand currently, i, as a non-smoker, have no right to ask you not to smoke, if i'm in a smoking area. if i want to avoid smoke, i have to go to a non-smoking section if they have one. if they don't, i'm SOL. i don't have any more rights than a smoker does, so i won't ask.

[Rev.Reverence]

*personally*, i think a lot of things should be banned in public places, like smoking and drinking, for example. of course, i also think that what one does in the privacy of one's own home is one's own business, and that included many of the currently illegal drugs they've "declared war" on. you wanna do crack? fine, do it in your house! you wanna drive after doing crack (while still under the influence), go to jail, big fine, because then you're endangering others. wanna smoke pot, drink, shoot heroin, snort coke? fine, do it in your house! ('your', meaning any private residence, not necessarily one you own.) wanna go out in public after doing any of those? fine, as long as you're not endangering others in doing so. if you do something that endangers others? big fine, go to jail.

that's what i *personally* think. of course, everyone knows we tried prohibition once before, and look how well that worked. if enough smokers and smokers' rights advocates get active enough, maybe they can change it. if they can, fine, i'll live with it. doesn't mean i'll be happy, but i will.

honestly, i'd like to see exemptions for smokers' clubs, certain bars/clubs/etc, (and especially your own car/house, i mean, wtf!?) but as far as i'm concerned, if a place has employees, i think this ban is fine. if you want to work there and don't smoke, you have to sign a waiver, or something. afterall, it's a workplace, and there are rules covering unhealthy work environments for every other industry, why not this one?

i also agree that it should be arranged like the licensing for liquor, so you can buy the ability to allow it, but i think that should be tied with requirements for proper air filtration, etc. that would be covered by health inspectors of some sort, and if you fail, you get your smokers' license revoked.

not that anyone cares about my opinion, but there it is.

THAT, is some good shit...has a touch more caring, & compromise in it than just about every other non-smokier's post, that I have seen to date.

[phee]

THAT, is some good shit...has a touch more caring, & compromise in it than just about every other non-smokier's post, that I have seen to date.

I like it as well.... good work Torn.

[Msterbeau]

i also agree that it should be arranged like the licensing for liquor, so you can buy the ability to allow it, but i think that should be tied with requirements for proper air filtration, etc. that would be covered by health inspectors of some sort, and if you fail, you get your smokers' license revoked.

I could totally live with it if this was the case. Particularly the ventilation aspect. At least make places provide ample (Not just adequate) ventilation. It helps a lot. I still think the ban in restaurants makes sense. I still think banning "flavored" cigs is a joke. It's either all or nothing.

NG - Completely disagree with you about letting someone other than the government deal with corporate rules and regulations. While conceding that many of these organizations are overworked, underfunded and ineffective, I don't see how anything but an entity of government has the authority to enforce. Perhaps I don't give capitalism credit for working as it should... I don't ever see it doing so simply because of how humanity has evolved. Many, many people don't have a clue about how much of the things in their lives work. They are essentially brain dead. For Capitalism to work properly people need to be informed and engaged. They aren't. Thus, government must provide the source of balance against industries desire for profit at the cost of health, safety and welfare of it's workers and customers.

[candyman]

the problem with asking someone not to smoke around you at a bar is that, even if 9 times out of 10 people are respectful about it, all it takes is you asking the wrong person on the wrong night, and you could end up in a physical confrontation over it, especially in a bar (i've had it happen). besides, as things stand currently, i, as a non-smoker, have no right to ask you not to smoke, if i'm in a smoking area. if i want to avoid smoke, i have to go to a non-smoking section if they have one. if they don't, i'm SOL. i don't have any more rights than a smoker does, so i won't ask.

You would be surprised at the number of smokers that will put it out for you if you ask. Yes you may get a rowdy one at the bar or something...but that really isn't the cigarette talking now is it?

And those vent systems you talked about are needed too. Alot of bars that deserve to stay open have them already its just the ones that are not up to code that have problems. The reason OSHA and other groups are not considering SHS a workplace hazard is because a common HVAC system is more than capable or evacuating the smoke. So, all that needs to happen is a little enforcement of the regulation regarding air systems in establishments and that will take care of alot. My favorite bar is always full of smokers but even when there is only elbow room you can't really tell that people are smoking unless they are next to you or you can smell it...the vent system does its job and the high flow fans on the ceiling bring the lingering smoke away too.

All that being said I still hate it when people smoke by me in China Buffet...I cannot stand smoking during meals, party because I ashed into my eggs once, and think that the cigarette should only come after you pay your bill and leave.

[~Tszura~]

The 9th Amendment states that just because a right (e.g. the right to consume tobacco or the right to not be forced to consume tobacco) is not specifically addressed doesn't mean the government can step in and take control of the issue. The 10th Amendment ensures that any and all powers not delegated to the 3 branches of government falls to the States an the People. If the power isn't specifically given, it cannot be exercised.

BTW: Kudos for the references. I wish there was more of it in this part of the forum.

not that anyone cares about my opinion, but there it is.

Of course we care about your opinion. This is a very touchy topic with strong feelings and opinions on both sides. This is what these kinds of discussions are all about, and I give everyone kudos for backing up what they express. I don't expect anyones complete perspective to change on this, but what I personally do expect is for all of us to honestly take the other side into consideration, and take a look at why we all believe what we believe. In the last few years I have come to learn that just because something looks a certain way on the surface doesn't mean that thats what it is truly about underneath.

[Nightgaunt]

You would be surprised at the number of smokers that will put it out for you if you ask.

Or just plain put out.

[Slogo]

Or just plain put out.

I concur...twice

[candyman]

Or just plain put out.

Smokers are SO easy...

[taysteewonderbunny]

Wow. Six pages already. What gets me is that we, generally a tolerant bunch regarding religion, politics, fringe culture, and the arts, could find something like smoking so divisive and the hot button topic that suddenly divides us on just about every other issue. Can't we just get back to having some kinky sex to an awesome soundtrack and move along?

[phee]

I agree with the good tasting large eared rodent

[Rev.Reverence]

Wow. Six pages already. What gets me is that we, generally a tolerant bunch regarding religion, politics, fringe culture, and the arts, could find something like smoking so divisive and the hot button topic that suddenly divides us on just about every other issue. Can't we just get back to having some kinky sex to an awesome soundtrack and move along?

Hey.....I've been doing that intermittently.....

[taysteewonderbunny]

Hey.....I've been doing that intermittently.....

Yay! And having orgasms for peace, too, I imagine!

[Rev.Reverence]

Yay! And having orgasms for peace, too, I imagine!

..ALL THE TIME....& I plan to keep doin' it for ALL-YEARS...I figure, why limit it to 1 day....

..I heard of this movement before...now, I goto full time...

[Hellion]

I may be a smoker,but the one thing that does really annoy me is when someone lights up a smoke at the table I am eating at,If I want to smoke I get up and find a vacant table or go outside.

[Raev]

I <3 you, in the drunken "I love you man!" kinda way.

*personally*, i think a lot of things should be banned in public places, like smoking and drinking, for example. of course, i also think that what one does in the privacy of one's own home is one's own business, and that included many of the currently illegal drugs they've "declared war" on. you wanna do crack? fine, do it in your house! you wanna drive after doing crack (while still under the influence), go to jail, big fine, because then you're endangering others. wanna smoke pot, drink, shoot heroin, snort coke? fine, do it in your house! ('your', meaning any private residence, not necessarily one you own.) wanna go out in public after doing any of those? fine, as long as you're not endangering others in doing so. if you do something that endangers others? big fine, go to jail.

that's what i *personally* think. of course, everyone knows we tried prohibition once before, and look how well that worked. if enough smokers and smokers' rights advocates get active enough, maybe they can change it. if they can, fine, i'll live with it. doesn't mean i'll be happy, but i will.

honestly, i'd like to see exemptions for smokers' clubs, certain bars/clubs/etc, (and especially your own car/house, i mean, wtf!?) but as far as i'm concerned, if a place has employees, i think this ban is fine. if you want to work there and don't smoke, you have to sign a waiver, or something. afterall, it's a workplace, and there are rules covering unhealthy work environments for every other industry, why not this one?

i also agree that it should be arranged like the licensing for liquor, so you can buy the ability to allow it, but i think that should be tied with requirements for proper air filtration, etc. that would be covered by health inspectors of some sort, and if you fail, you get your smokers' license revoked.

not that anyone cares about my opinion, but there it is.

[the eternal]

You would be surprised at the number of smokers that will put it out for you if you ask.

Or just plain put out.

I had bean do both!

First she put out, then she put it out for me, a year later, for good. (No more smoking bean)

I <3 you, in the drunken "I love you man!" kinda way.

Well, I love him in a more forbidden way.

He's the Ace of Spades in my book

[Slogo]

^

you never cease to amaze me sir

[AstralCrux]

Torn, I would be happy with the compromise of ventalation systems and allowing for a permit to allow some clubs to go smoking if they could meet the ventalation requirements. It's completely fair.

I'd be happy if they just allowed a few bars in each city to be smoking and the rest non. But, at least that way, we all get our choice. You can enjoy a nice smoke free environment and I can enjoy a smoke with my drink. (I've discovered that post-gallbladdar removal really doesn't allow for me to drink anymore without a wicked hangover, so I don't drink much anymore. But, it's the concept that counts.)

I miss my cloves and I'm completely confused as to how I'll cope with family without them. :-( But, I digress.

[Simon Bar Sinister]

even the tobacco mecca of North Carolina has gone the smoking ban route. Their ban went into effect today. Yay NC!