Is it time for EBM to leave the nest?

[Hermine]

For tbe NTH time, I AM NOT SAYING THAT PEOPLE SHOULD TRY TO HAVE GOTH NIGHTS AT WAREHOUSE CLUBS OR THAT PROMOTORS SHOULD LOSE MONEY!!!

Alos for the NTH time, REAL GOTH NIGHTS AT SMALL CLUBS ARE STILL PROFITABLE.

The fact that everyone thinks it has to be all warehouse parties is EXACTLY why I think EBM needs to be a separate thing from goth, so that people can have real goth nights again. Goth hasn't "evolved" into warehouse parties, it's been smothered by repackaged warehouse parties.

What Shade was talking about, btw, about making a society where you can feel comfortable is counterculture. EBM IS NOT COUNTERCULTURE. It's mainstream. It's trendy. It's dance music. It might as well be remixed Britney Spears.

To REITERATE MY CONSISTENTLY IGNORED POINT: Yes, it's profitable to have warehouse parties.

A. That IN NO WAY makes it goth.

B. Contrary to POPULAR belief here, warehouse parties are NOT the only profitable venture in the world, or even in the scene.

Real goth nights may not make you as much money in one night, but they don't have nearly as much overhead either. Plus you don't have to worry about getting busted for a disorderly house, given that techno and tweakers go hand in hand.

It is perfectly possible to turn a tidy profit running an event in a regular-sized non-warehouse club, LIKE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR DECADES.

They exist in DC, now, in large part due to my influence. But you aren't interested in that, you're wrapped up in your "wave of the future" groupthink and just interested in jumping on me en masse.

Well, that's not goth, it's not individual, it's not countercultural and it's not pleasant to be ganged up on like this.

And WTF is wrong with saying goth isn't rave? Why does somebody need to "respond" to that? GOTH IS NOT RAVE, IT'S GOTH. I'm sorry that makes people uncomfortable.

I am really pissed right now. I am getting jumped for saying that we should make a distinction between warehouse parties and regular goth nights and you'd think I'd espoused Nazism.

WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!

Oh, and Brenda, in answer to your question re: the rebirth of goth in Baltimore DC:

Ascension (the oldschool/ambient night) just graduated to weekly on Friday nights. That's at Orpheus on Pratt Street in Little Italy.

Midnight DC generally has a pretty good mix, especially when Solaries is there. That's at The Meeting Place, 1707 L street NW

There's a new Tuesday Night event involving St. Matthew.

The Depot's Friday night used to be pretty 80's and darkwave oriented, though also extremely eclectic. Apart from the occasional bad Madonna remix, it's a pretty good time.

I think that some attempts have been made to resurrect

And whatever DayGlow (must be ironic; she hates all electronic music with a passion) nee FailureToThrive is up to is likely to be pure deathrock. I love her sets.

They all tend to get a bit faster (except for the late lamented Horrorshow--which was pure deathrock) as the evening wears on most nights, but not always. They're the ones I'l

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Hermine]

The groupthink comment wasn't about EBM, it's about here. It's the reason I left the last time. Some opinions are not respected or permitted here and everyone here will jump on you, condemning you in virtually the same words, whether or not they have anything to do with what you actually said. It's usually mildly entertaining to hang out here, but once you deviate from popular opinion it becomes no fun at all. And, frankly, I fully expect to be censured or at least flamed to a crisp for criticizing the community.

But you asked and no it was not about all EBM fans.

WHAT I HAVE SAID IS that oldschool goth and ambient events should continue to exist. WHAT I HAVE SAID is that goth is different from EBM, NOT that its fans are superior (though I really hate EBM music myself and don't know how anyone could like it, I know plenty of intelligent people who have very different taste in music from me)

But what I say doesn't matter, all that matters is the LYNCH MOB mentality at this point. Jesus, I thought if I stayed away from politics I'd be safe! But no, apparently speaking ill of techno is taboo as well.

So EVERYONE here is reacting as if I were trying to ban EBM, or force promoters to lose money on trying to have goth nights in spaces that aren't suitable for them.

I respect the rights of EBM fans to have their events. Why can't you respect my right to have my events?

NOW, WOULD YOU PRETTY PLEASE READ WHAT I FUCKING SAID. The Borg-like similarity of your responses saves time in rebuttal, but there's no point, if you're not going to actually respond to what I say. At least try and read the parts right after "I SAID"

I NEVER said I thought that goths were better than EBM fans. In FACT, I SPECIFICALLY SAID that I DO NOT think that goths were better than EBM fans. What I said was that goth is different from EBM. I have no objection to cross-pollination between the two genres existing, but I am so tired of going to a "goth" night and finding myself surrounded by sweaty tweakers and assaulted by techno music. I fucking hate techno music.

I DO NOT THINK that EBM should be stamped out. I DO NOT THINK that your precious City Club should close. However, I DO THINK that an event that plays techno in a great big warehouse-style club is a warehouse party, not a goth night, and that its appeal to certain elements that have attached themselves to the "goth" scene does not have to mean that there cannot be real goth nights.

Personally, yes I do think EBM is utter crap, but that's just my opinion. I have a right to have tastes in music too, even if they are different from those of the DGN group mind. WHAT I AM SAYING is that EBM shouldn't be called goth because it isn't. I am not saying that you can't listen to it or that you're a moron for liking a type of music that I really dislike. You just have different tastes and you are participating in something that really has very little to do with the subculture in which I am participating.

GOTH HAS slow and brooding or punk-influenced rhythmns. It generally includes a lot of distorted guitar. It's a specific genre of music that appeared in the early 80s. Now, one can nitpick and say, well where does goth end and punk begin or where does goth end and new wave begin; likewise deathrock. But in no way is it at all close to techno. To say that a genre of music HAS specific features that identify it and has a definition is NOT the same thing as disparaging everything that doesn't fit that definition. I AM JUST SAYING that goth is goth. Goth is not techno and techno is not goth. They are two different things.

And yes, EBM _does_ have a lot more in common with mainstream dance music than it does with goth music. A whole lot. And the reason that you have ALL repeated (that's groupthink! Not only do you ALL have the same opinion, but you ALL use the same arguments, none of which have anything to do with what I'm actually saying here) for the replacement of goth nights with EBM nights was...anyone remember? Popularity. Breadth of appeal.

The reason that EBM has a broad appeal is because it sounds a lot like other dance music, so it appeals to other electronic music fans (ravers and people from mainstream dance clubs). Yes, some goths like EBM. However, some of us consider it something that we just put up with to hear the occasional decent set, and sometimes in the vain hope of same, or just because it's the only game in town.

As for the definition of goth, I'm sorry, but I DO have standards and this post is about the need for there to be standards. I think that, to call yourself goth, you have to at least listen to SOME goth music. I do not think that head to toe Hot Topic is particularly goth or attractive. I DID NOT SAY "if you shop at Hot Topic at all, you're not goth" I SAID that head to toe hot topic is not goth or creative. It's just fucking tacky. Especially lately, since HT has started selling nothing but a bland puree of rap, metal, rave, and spookykid fashion.

Likewise, I do not think that techno music is the same thing as goth music. It is pretty much the antithesis of goth music.

[Jarodaka]

I wouldn't attribute the apparently similar response to groupthink so much as to the different scenes.

The major, regular venues here, Mephisto's, Luna, City Club, and Necto, are very upfront about the kind of music they play. Only Mephisto's and Necto even use the word goth. As with our precious City Club, the DJs mix it up pretty good, even with some old school, or real goth thrown in. For me, personally, there is always one friend or another either leaving or running to the floor because 'their music' is being played or some, oh no, stompy guitar riff started.

As far as EBM... when DJ Jinx allowed a certain DJ (who shall remain nameless, but is usually very good... ) to go on with his EBM set, Jinx heard nothing but grief from everyone at the Necto (see Monday nights, hey, look, I know some of those people!... anyway). Oh, and if you do manage to make it up here, I highly recommend Necto on Monday. Mr. Jinx is very happy to take requests to say 'thank you' for coming out to Ann Arbor on a Monday night!

I guess the goth rock hasn't been completely smothered around here, though there is certainly no ideal goth night as you describe it. There doesn't appear to be much, if any, confusion about what we'll be listening to in the regular venues around here. So to read about it being stomped on by EBM is not exactly what we're used to.

To second Black Sunday it's great that you're pushing the goth scene for D.C.-Baltimore. To agree with you, Hermine, it sucks that the word 'goth' is thrown in with EBM so loosely. It certainly shouldn't be. When somebody puts goth in their flyer, I expect a certain kind of music. I would probably be just as disappointed as you if I went to a "goth/industrial/EBM/synthpop" event in D.C., or anywhere, only to be droned to sleep with the the thump thump thump thumpa of EBM. It would seem promoters around Detroit are more careful -- honest? knowledgeable? -- about how they advertise their events.

On a side note... I'd say the use of the word goth has been on the decline in promoting Detroit venues. Again, I use the excellent Oontz as an example of no false advertising -- not pretending to be goth at all.

Oh, and non-alcholic beer?! Blech!

[bav]

The groupthink comment wasn't about EBM, it's about here. It's the reason I left the last time. Some opinions are not respected or permitted here and everyone here will jump on you, condemning you in virtually the same words, whether or not they have anything to do with what you actually said. It's usually mildly entertaining to hang out here, but once you deviate from popular opinion it becomes no fun at all. And, frankly, I fully expect to be censured or at least flamed to a crisp for criticizing the community.

I don't see that happening right here, I'm sorry. While you do seem to have a different opinion on this than others, nobody has flamed you or censured you or even condemned you. People are expressing their differences in opinion with you. There has been no name calling, no one has said "YOU'RE WRONG" or has even said anything offensive. At most was maybe a joke referring to the standard conception (within the goth scene as much as without, in my experience) of goths being suicidally depressed. Possibly in poor taste (depending on your type of humor), but certainly not an attack on you.

WHAT I HAVE SAID IS that oldschool goth and ambient events should continue to exist. WHAT I HAVE SAID is that goth is different from EBM, NOT that its fans are superior (though I really hate EBM music myself and don't know how anyone could like it, I know plenty of intelligent people who have very different taste in music from me)

I haven't seen anywhere in this thread anyone saying that oldschool goth and ambient events should NOT exist. Some people have expressed a preference for EBM/synthpop/whatever over bands like Sex Gang Children, Bauhaus, Rosetta Stone, Alien Sex Fiend, or whatever your personal definition of "old-school goth" includes. Some people have taken guesses at what might go through the minds of LOCAL club owners if they were to be approached about an old-school goth night.

And I do agree with you, Goth is different than electro-body music.

I respect the rights of EBM fans to have their events. Why can't you respect my right to have my events?

Noone is saying that you don't have the right to your events. I personally applaud you for going out and helping jumpstart/resuscitate the "goth" scene in your area! But DC is a very different place than Detroit is (more on that in a moment).

I NEVER said I thought that goths were better than EBM fans. In FACT, I SPECIFICALLY SAID that I DO NOT think that goths were better than EBM fans. What I said was that goth is different from EBM. I have no objection to cross-pollination between the two genres existing, but I am so tired of going to a "goth" night and finding myself surrounded by sweaty tweakers and assaulted by techno music. I fucking hate techno music.

When did the idea that one type of fan was better than the other come up? I just re-read the thread and it doesn't seem that anyone said this until you brought this up.

And if you object streneously to going to your nights and hearing music you don't like and feel that they are misrepresented , then don't go to those particular nights.

I DO NOT THINK that EBM should be stamped out. I DO NOT THINK that your precious City Club should close.

Again, I don't see where this has come up prior till now.

However, I DO THINK that an event that plays techno in a great big warehouse-style club is a warehouse party, not a goth night, and that its appeal to certain elements that have attached themselves to the "goth" scene does not have to mean that there cannot be real goth nights

But there's more than just the 2-dimensional dynamic that's going here. I've been to the type of parties you speak of, I've also been to plenty of small clubs where the same music was played (Upstairs of Exit in Chicago comes to mind...the dance-floor could hold maybe about 4 people). I've spent time DJing a goth/industrial night in a club that was a converted warehouse. I've spent time in small venues that catered to old-school goths. It's more than just "big EBM nights that use the word goth" and "small, intimate nights where real goth music is played".

This is where the regional factors that form a difference in opinion start coming in, I think. Yes, the Detroit area (and Michigan in general from what I've experienced) is very EBM/Synthpop/whatever (electric-based music)-centric. Probably one of the main reasons is the techno that you hate so much. Detroit had a lot of impact on the techno scene for a long, long time. Thus there is a tradition of electronic music here, and the local "scene" is a pretty dedicated one.

There are still a number of old-school goths around, but most of the ones I know *ARE* old-school. They have families, they have careers. A lot of the scene in the area seems to be a younger set of people these days....the ones that didn't grow up listening to Joy Division, Sisters of Mercy, or Siouxsie & the Banshees. They go out to the local club nights and they are turned onto VNV, Apop, or *shudders* Wolfsheim. They grew up with their older friends/relatives going to parties at the Packard Plant or they went to some of the parties held under the Ambassador Bridge or at the Chop Shop themselves.

And these are the people that are organizing the club nights or going to the clubs *IN DETROIT*. Its only at the concerts of the 80's goth bands that I usually see the OLD-school goths showing up, usually with their children.

It sounds like things are different in DC, and I'm glad that you all are getting things together and reclaiming the name of goth and what it stood for in the 80's. But there hasn't been that kind of movement going on here, and usually when there is an old-school goth night in Michigan, its really a mish-mash of goth, EBM, Synthpop, 80's, and Punk because that's what it takes for the local venues and DJ's (even the small ones) to make it worthwhile to the venue Powers-That-Be. There does not seem to be the interest in trying to set up a straight goth night on either the owners end or the clients end.

It sounds like you're upset over the co-option of the term Goth used to describe events that appeal to....whatever designation you want to call the people that show up and the music that's played. And you're doing something about it, and that's fantastic. More power to you, and I hope that if I'm out in that area visiting family in the near future that I can come out and take a look at what you've helped create in the DC area.

But for some people, the term Goth has grown to encompass more than the 80's style of music and/or style. Some people take it very seriously, other don't. Some embrace being called goth, others hate it when people label them that. But what the term generally refers to NOW has evolved. Not necessarily better, not necessarily worse, but it encompasses more than it did 20-30 years ago.

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Jarodaka]

While you and Jarod might not appreciate EBm or whatever...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not the dislike or unappreciation of EBM (not to be confused with old-school EBM, oh sweet, sweet Wikipedia, how you've enlightened me), it's the false advertising that's disappointing.... and I think what Hermine is referring to is the techno-infused, glowstick-friendly EBM, not the formerly more industrial, but now with more synthpop and melodies of Covenant and VNV ebm... ack, I should really go to bed.

[Ginevra]

In the end, I think what it boils down to is people's personal preference. Can you be Goth and listen to Britney Spears. You bet. Why? Because, in MY opinion, Goth is a state of mind rather than simply a mode of dress or what type of music you listen to although people do tend to break it down into simplicity this way. I believe it was Shade who stated that the culture started because these people that weren't comfortable in mainstream decided to start having their own places to go and things to do.

About warehouse parties and smaller venues. . . . .smaller venues do not do as well around here. It's a known fact. But the differences in the two areas being compared could be the deciding factor. I personally consider City Club a smaller venue but it does have the warehouse feel/style. And it does very well. Ascension was another club that used to be in Detroit and I believe has been mentioned somewhere in this thread. Everyone that went to it that I've ever spoken to about Ascension very much enjoyed their time there. But yet they closed down and now, the building that housed it is even gone (to the best of my knowledge). Why did they close down? While they may have catered to the Goth-ish and related cultures (ie Vampire, etc), you can't make enough money keeping the place open at 6am making cappucinos. It wasn't IHOP that stays open 24 hours and has a full menu nor was it City Club where a steady diet of alcohol is a mainstay. In the end, a club IS a business and if business is poor, unless you can revamp it somehow, you're going to end up losing it.

Here is one person's personal view about what Ascension was like. A reviewfrom the Detroit Free Press about Ascension. Sounds like fun, doesn't it? One more link because it gives a nod to Caelum Bliss which many of the people in this area know about.

I digress, however. While I'm not that deep in the scene nor am I more of a fan towards one thing or another, I feel that it falls back completely to three things:

1) People have to like what's being played

2) Club/warehouse owners need to make a profit.

3) Location, location, location.

The differences between B-more/DC and Detroit, it would seem, are enough that while something there may thrive, it would wither and die an agonising death here.

I'm glad that the goth culture is taking an upswing where you are, Hermine. But there really are some things that can't be changed. Things change, evolve, de-evolve, convolute, contort, twist and turn. It's ever been so with mankind and it will ever be so. Good luck on helping to keep things alive where you are.

I do agree with Jarod that "false advertising" is a huge letdown and reminds people whenever they hear the name of a place "Oh yeah, they don't play the type of music they say they're going to" and they inevitably tell their friends. This can also contribute to the death of a venue.

[JaneDead]

I thought I had.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh you did in a sense- i was making more of a reference to the "80's" and it coming "after" punk in the "80's". but what do i know? i am not goth, i am not punk. i am just me and i like what i like which is a little bit of everything. i don't care what is popular and what is not. what is mainstream or underground. if i like it, i like it. how old the people are in the scene, what they are wearing, where it is, where it came from originally, what it has transformed into - is not relevant to me. i don't see why people make such a big deal about issues like that? it's music. enjoy it or don't.

i understand this is not the exact point trying to made here by others - but this is the point i have now made here.

[phee]

Mderator stuff:

I am not going to edit or censor this page at this time.

I personally think that is more than awsome that people are actually discussing in some depth music in the "Music Discussion" forum of all places!!! I think people are expressing there opinions in a logical way (for the most part) and are having a healthy debate.

(Here it comes)

However:

I do believe that there has been some calling out and name calling that I am simply and politely requesting to be stopped,

all that matters is the LYNCH MOB mentality at this point

for example

WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!

I am by no means a puratin of any kind, but these are sort of insightment/inferiority complex I think we can speak w/out fighting, and argue without name calling.

I think for the most part people have not ganged up, mobbed, or deliberatly insulted others in this thread, it has been a very respectful arguement. If you feel this is not the case please send me a message or e-mail, with the phrase/comments in question and I will look into it.

Keep up the good discussion

be nice.

(sheesh I can't leave you alone for a few hours :laughing: )

[bav]

Bav, what I said about goth's refering to people who are depressed was't a joke, I meant it as it's a standard stereotype for goth's by many people, I didn't mean it to be in poor taste. 

Fair enough....I thought it was funny, so assumed it was a joke. Then again, my sense of humor is like that. I personally didn't find it to be in poor taste, but I do know people that would be up in flames over a comment like that. >shrug<

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Hermine]

As for "lynch mob mentality," I think I need to respond to that: I do feel that I was being ganged up on and it's not the first time. I also felt that it was necessary to call you all on it in order to get it to stop. There is a high degree of conformity here and certain opinions immediately trigger a unified and very hostile response, which is often undertaken without thinking about it.

It's not a pleasant thing to be on the receiving end of.

Again I don't care about labels but in this thread it appears that "goth" = "good".

For the Nth time, I NEVER SAID THAT. I said "goth"!="techno" I also said that I am into goth, not techno, and specified dozens of times that there was nothing wrong with this other people being into techno and not goth or both. I said DOZENS of TIMES that my point is that they are different things, not that one is better (while acknowledging that one interests me personally much more than the other).

You respect the rights of EBM fans to have their events but you titled this thread "Is it time for EBM to leave the nest?". Call me crazy but it seems to me that you hinting that you want it to go away, but hey maybe I'm reading too much into things.

That was certainly not what I intended to say, as I have stated several times. However, let me clarify for you: The expression, " to leave the nest" means "to strike out on one's own." It does not mean "to be obliterated," nor does it mean, "to cease to exist." I would have thought that would be pretty clear.

I think that the juxtaposition is actually bad for both genres. EBM fans--and DJ's-- don't have as much opportunity to explore other electronic music, and goth is, well, dying (BTW, I thought that was funny, if not terribly illuminating). EBM is being stifled and goth is being smothered.

In short, I am a swirlygoth separatist, not a swirlygoth supremacist.

No, I don't like EBM. Nor will I pretend I like EBM. I don't hate all electronic music. I like ambient and darkwave, and I even liked a good bit of Futureperfect (in its original format, that is; which you never hear; same with, for instance, Delirium's "Underwater" I love it on Poem, but hate it on Chimera.) but I don't like oontz and I've been traumatized by too many horrid remixes (maybe that's part of it. Some of the oontzy djs we have here are really really bad. There was this one guy, well, just because I don't like techno doesn't mean I can't tell when it's being done that glaringly badly. One Depeche Mode song was unrecognizable. When questioned, the promotor just said "Oh, we try not to use him much." This guy was enough to get any self-respecting Detroiter to go oldschool on his ass and "Hang the DJ") to be likely to change my mind.

Doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, but it's still really hard to find anything else unless you're willing to go out and advocate for it, and to support the events. For a long time, there simply weren't any events that played goth music (as in the specific genre) or ambient, or ethereal, or darkwave in DC. It was pretty hard to find in San Francisco, too (there was one event, House of Voodoo, I think it's still around). Even oldschool industrial was pretty hard to find. I mean, it's easy to say, "well just don't go to EBM nights" but many of us are faced with the choice between an EBM night or nothing. Only recently, and by dint of much persuasion, have I found and nurtured more traditional goth nights where I am.

I think that the problems that are being encountered by smaller venues comes from this idea of a warehouse party or a really big club being the definitive goth experience, when it really doesn't have much to do with goth. Smaller venues will only do well if people support them and it is people's attitudes towards them, and towards what constitutes a goth event, that I would like to change.

These things don't just happen. Clubs don't just fail. You have to support your scene and support what you want to see. That means volunteering to hand out fliers or plug the event to other people. That means going regularly. That means getting your friends to go. That means talking to promotors about what they're thinking of doing and what you'd like to see.

The problems of small venues also come from the idea that this is an inevitable change. That it is "evolution." Goth hasn't evolved into VNV Nation (in the words of Ronan Harris "Do I fucking look like a goth to you?" ), it has evolved into the Cruxshadows. Whole different thing.

And what are the Cruxshadows if not new (though I really don't care for Burning Fortress--too techno-ey; maybe that's why a member left, the rest of their stuff is distinctly, well, noveau goth)? What is Last Dance? The Brides? Or even The Girl Pool? Now, I'll be the first to admit that the first two bands are both much better live than on disk, but they all definitely continue the gothic aesthetic, some while assimilating electronic elements. And Dead Can Dance is back together. They're not specifically goth, but they're sure a part of the goth subculture and they fit the goth aesthetic.

This can be accomplished in many ways, some of them involving synthesizers, even drum machines (e.g., Eldritch's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, Sisters of Mercy), while still fitting within that aesthetic. In goth music, while there may be drum solos (e.g. most notably, Bela Lugosi's Dead, which was done on old fashioned real-world instruments, including the drum set) occasionally, the music is not centered on percussion; the beats are relatively regular, not ever-changing, looped, and woven together to make up the main fabric of the song; most are relatively slow and brooding, and goth songs are centered on melody, which is treated with a certain sensuality.

But while some of the above bands are not part of the standard "goth canon" they are still within the aesthetic, if not the specific genre.

See, EBM is not that aesthetic. It's a different aesthetic. It's not necessarily an inferior aesthetic, though it does not much appeal to me personally. So EBM came along and everybody said "Oh, it's the wave of the future, everyhting is EBM now." Meanwhile, goth has NOT stopped developing and those developments are glossed over in claiming that goth has turned into EBM.

And yes, I do think that goth has a definition and standards. I'm sorry, I know that's a very "politically incorrect" thing to say in the goth scene, but this "state of mind" stuff has gone too far.

It's not even the same state of mind anymore. There's a difference between "Oh, sweet sorrow, pass me the nephenthe so I can sit and contemplate my misery to some slow spooky music" and "Bounce Bounce, I just ate a whole shitload of E, the whole world is beautiful I'm going to jump up and down for a while to something with a high BPM." Now, I don't mean to imply that all techno fans are on E, any more than I would imply that all oldschool goths are on nepenthe* (or have necessarily even heard of it for that matter) but the music and the mood are distinctly very different.

And the dress is different too. There's a difference betwen Victorian mourning dress or romantic postpunk garb, worn with pointy buckle boots and big hair; and a neoprene miniskirt worn with big platform shoes and glow in the dark extensions.

I think that EBM parties should not be considered a part of the goth scene because, being more commercial, they take over the whole scene. EBM parties need to be their own thing, seperate from the goth scene.

As for my creating the DC goth scene, I haven't created it (I don't have the kind of money, but thanks for thinking so), I've just influenced it. My influence comes from just advising people (I've been a scene fixture for long enough that people do sometimes listen to me).

Here's what happened with one promotor: He said his door was good with the all techno format. I asked him about his over 21 numbers. He admitted that they weren't good. I told him he'd get a better mix of people with a better mix of music. He took my advice and he has a really good mix of people now and the club is anything but dead; it's jumpin'. He's eagerly awaiting the expansion of the venue. Now, he doesn't play pure deathrock, but he also doesn't play pure EBM. The music gets a bit dancier on towards 1:00 or 2:00 some nights, but some nights it doesn't. Some nights, it's the dancier stuff that clears the floor.

It ain't the ideal, but this ain't an ideal world and I was able to influence the scene towards having a lot more variety. And there is one event that focusses on ambient and oldschool that has just moved from a monthly time to a weekly one. I rarely missed an event and I plugged it as the best in the area, bar none (which I really feel it is). I'm waiting to see what DJ Dayglo (nee Failuretothrive)'s next project will be. I loved her last one, which recently closed. She's more of a purist than I am.

I do plug the clubs I like too. Some reason, a lot of people end up asking me about local goth events. I guess it's because I'm friendly and often conspicuously goth, and also often in train stations (as the boi, whom I visit weekly, lives just outside of DC).

The thing is that, yes, you can get a lot of people by playing techno, but most of those people are peripheral to the scene and, at least where I am, a lot of them are very young, as in too young to drink and not yet solidified in their identities (i.e. likely to drift off on the next trend; this has happened to events here) There's also the drug factor. I don't approve of the RAVE act at all (most of you know how I feel about the drug war as a whole), but that doesn't mean that, were I a promotor, I would ignore the fact that it does make catering to a young raver-heavy crowd quite risky.

Techno is profitable in the short term but, from a business perspective, it's high risk, you will piss off the venue with low bar tabs, and a large segment of your crowd is likely to wander off on the next fad (I'm not saying all EBM fans are just there on a fad, but a lot of them where I am have been), or leave when they graduate HS or college, meaning a good portion cycles through every year and you don't know if they'll be replaced or not.

Look, goth is enjoying a brief moment in the sun (Ha! You can't do anything to that metaphor that I haven't already done), not the first either. When NIN came out, industrial became cool for a while. When Marilyn Manson came out, there was another crop of spookykids, but in both cases, most of them didn't stay with it, and the hard fact is that most of the people who are flocking to it now are not necessarily going to stick around either. If your scene is exclusively dependent on big-box clubs and huge turnouts, what's going to happen to it when this boom ends?

Smaller venues will not thrive unless people support them. And that won't happen unless they recognize that a small venue is not inferior to a large one and that listening to something obscure is not inferior to listening to something popular. Which is what counterculture is about and what goth is about. People who create a space where they feel comfortable because they're not comfortable in the mainstream (And not everyone who does that is goth, btw. There are lots of different countercultures), and what the goth scene should always provide is an alternative to the mainstream club experience, which the EBM club experience closely resembles, at least from the perspective of people who are into goth music.

*An obscure hallucinogen. I believe that one is made from the juice of the pitcher plant. It's supposed to be quite entertaining, but I guess that's only if you don't think too much about the fact that its function while in the plant is to drown and digest unwary bugs. Never tried it myself, though.

[JaneDead]

*references the gothesaurus as i certainly am not sure what most of this is about anymore*

[Black Sunday]

hermine we could go in circles about this all night.....but at this point I am still trying to figure out where anyone jumped on you or was out of line.

[Fierce Critter]

I believe that when this subject was brought up on EZBDGN, a semi-humorous comment I made was the final straw that scared you off the board, Hermine. Which is why I'd chosen, up to this point, only read this thread, and not throw my .02 in, lest I once again be accused of "holding a grudge" and pissing you off. Luckily, a lot of people here have expressed my own feelings already, and I don't need to be redundant or repetitive.

I find it interesting that, once again, your response is to get pissed off and feel attacked when you're disagreed with.

It's not groupthink or mob mentality, Hermine. It's a matter that you're dealing with people with similar experience in this area, who therefore generally feel the same way on this subject. It would be similar to if you had a PURE GOTHS ONLY message board, and some EBM lover came on and posted a thread saying, "OLDSCHOOL GOTH NEEDS TO BE PUT OUT TO PASTURE." Being that the vast majority of people on YOUR board would be of a certain shared mindset, you and your fellow board members would likely respond very similiarly to the EBM advocate. The majority of you would simply not agree, and say so.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to count enough people on this board who consider themselves FULL-ON GOTH on one hand. Including myself.

Hermine, I've got a good decade or more in years on the majority of people on DGN. I actually KNOW where you're coming from, and at times, have shared your dismay at the direction things seem to take - the broadening of a formerly VERY exclusive subculture. Not saying NOBODY else here does, only that maybe, contrary to what you believe of me & some non-existent "grudge", I might be a touch more sympathetic.

Due, in part, to my age and the fact that growing up, my middle name should have been "Misfit", I can see where your definition of "goth" comes from. I can see perfectly why you would think things EBM should NOT be in any way associated with "goth". Just to give you an example of HOW much I agree with you, and differ from many DGN'ers who have expressed their opinions here: I really have to stretch my mind open pretty far to see how Depeche Mode, particularly early DM, could be considered "goth". (Gang, I like DM - just making a point here. : )

NME published an all-goth reprints issue last month, featuring articles spanning a time period of around 1979 through 1992. Hermine, I read MOST of that stuff when it was FIRST published, at least after 1985. And up until I sold my tape collection on Ebay last year, I had the cassettes to prove I listened to the music when it was new. I think I have a pretty good grasp of what you consider true "goth". And I can see where you would fight tooth-and-nail to try to keep it pure.

I think there are many aspects as to why people here don't really share your rancor towards EBM and other "non goth music" as you see it. For one thing, not to say that Detroit "goths" are "gothier than thou", but I can honestly say that, in my experience, Detroiters place a LOT more emphasis on mindset than appearance/choice of music/etc when it comes to defining what "goth" is.

I know where you're coming from with the "Hot Topic from Head to Toe is tacky" feeling. I was at a Taco Bell the other day, in a Michigan t-shirt, shorts, and sandals, no make-up and unkempt hair. In front of me in line were two young teenage girls with their mother. The girls were head-to-toe Hot Topic, from their Lip Service hair dye to the Converse on their feet. I'm talking the crisp, clean, "walked down the aisles and picked things off the racks as they went" newness of a Christmas shopping spree.

But my husband, who is NOT "goth", looked at me and said, "Even as you are right now, you are so much more goth than them." He gets it.

And I think a lot of Detroit goths "get it" too. They understand you can like EBM, KNOW it's "not true to the original definition of goth (as a modern subculture)" and yet ACCEPT it as part of the culture because, as long as the mindset is there, there's nothing threatening or wrong in broadening the definition a bit. Heck, it's not necessarily even broadening the definition so much as being accepting of more "surface" things as representative of the culture.

Another possible reason you're clashing in this discussion with Detroiters is the fact that very few of us have the freedom to be 24/7 goths in appearance & lifestyle (or might not even WANT to be). We're talking a lot of white-collar IT people who have to dress conservatively, blue collars who have to be up at 5:00 a.m. to punch in at Ford or GM plants and therefore can't go to clubs Sunday through Thursday, etc. By nature, they've had to broaden their definition of what it is for them to be "goth". And maybe it also follows that they've broadened the definition of what music can be considered "goth".

I really can't speak for anyone else though. I myself have become accepting of things such as EBM music and Hot Topic clothing because I personally don't feel my identity is threatened by that acceptance. If someone wants to judge my "worthiness as a goth" by the fact that I like EBM, buy the occasional dress or accessory at HT, or wear a freakin' Tigger t-shirt on the days my Cure shirt is in the laundry, that's THEIR hangup. I'm comfortable and secure in my knowledge of who I am.

My levity in the similar discussion on EZBDGN was, by you, completely misinterpreted. My suggestion that you turn your living room into your own personal goth club, I was sympathizing with your need to have something purely what you THINK it should be, uncorrupted by influences you think water-down and threatens its existence.

I think where you might get frustrated discussing this on DGN is that just not a lot of people feel "goth" is all that threatened, or needs protecting/defending/whatever. It's just not as big a deal for some as it is for you.

Sorry if I didn't express everything I said here as eloquently as I might have intended. It's late, and I've got a headache from typing this out on a 9" monitor on a 100mhz P1 laptop with 40 MB of ram and a keyboard small enough for Executive Barbie to type on.

[Jarodaka]

...I think what Hermine is referring to is the techno-infused, glowstick-friendly EBM, not the formerly more industrial, but now with more synthpop and melodies of Covenant and VNV ebm...

But according to some people, the more Industrial style stuff isn't goth either. 

What makes industrial more "goth" than synthpop?

Idunno. Nobody said that, not that you're saying anyone did. I didn't intend to apply a more-or-less-goth label on either. My point was to differentiate between old-school-more-like-industrial-ebm and ebm-now-which-is-very-techno. Back with the Covenant, Apop, and VNV, they've certainly differentiated themselves enough that they've clearly moved in more of a synthpop, they call it futurepop, direction. Works for me.

Again I don't care about labels but in this thread it appears that "goth" = "good".  Do you mean that synthpop has no place in places where you would also hear Industrial?   

Labels are generally a good thing. They identify something. As Hermine is saying, there is different music that draws different crowds (and different revenue streams). When reading a flyer and seeing that 'ebm-industrial-synthpop' or 'top 40-eurobeat', labels are very important. Would anyone really go to an event labeled 'good music'? I doubt it, at least not without finding out more or who the DJs are gonna be. That's an extreme example and, sure, the subgenres can get laboriously tedious and pointless, but maligning or rejecting labels outright is not necessarily a useful thing. It's taking away an important tool in identifying, understanding, and appreciating music.

Then again, maybe explaining the usefulness of labels isn't gonna make you care, but they're there for a good reason.

[Hermine]

Of course you can't. Nobody here can see anything wrong with it while they're doing it; they just go along.

Look, maybe I'm a little sensitive. You see, the last time I said something that people here didn't agree with, I was systematically driven out of the forum by constant abuse from all directions. Those of you who were there know what you did. Some of you even admitted it. At least one of you is still obsessed with denying it.

But the fact remains that here I got the same arguments from everyone and it was the same argument that had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what I was actually saying. AND EVERYONE came at me from all directions REPEATING THE SAME THING NO MATTER WHAT I SAID. It was like none of you were reading my posts at all. It's a pretty similar experience to last time.

Oh, and as for specific people, how about DynoMite? I really don't appreciate her comments. She's generally been pretty snarky and hostile towards me on this thread.

And it's comments like:

oh no...not another one of these threads.

(damnit, why aren't the tags working?)

which definitely communicated BS's intention to jump on me without ever reading what I was saying.

It's the fact that half the posts were "me too" and "well asked" most of which really feel more like "Yeah! Get her!" and were probably said in that spirit.

Everyone is so self-congratulatory about being in agreement and then you're surprised that I say that there's a lot of conformity. I know people are very uncomfortable with that, but it's the truth. There is also an element of groupthink that goes into these sorts of exchanges and I know people are very uncomfortable with that too.

But that's the truth too:

I think you responded to about everything that I would have responded

Luckily, a lot of people here have expressed my own feelings already, and I don't need to be redundant or repetitive.

(ha! you'd be the first here then)

It's exchanges like.

I like city club, I like the music and I like the people. That's all that really matters to me.

What more needs to be said... that about sums it up.

It's also exchanges like;

what what what what? how come no one commented on this?

I thought I had.

That really definitely give a sense that this is a team effort on your part.

There's also the fact that until I pointed it out until I pointed out that it was textbook groupthink (which it is), YOU WERE ALL SAYING EXACTLY THE SAME THING. And it's not like it was because you were responding to what I was saying, because ALL of your posts both ignored the same aspects of my actual posts and acted on the same erroneous assumptions that I was taking particular positions that I specified that I was not taking.

Which is still happening, apparently. FierceCritter, I have said SEVERAL TIMES on this thread that I am NOT anti-EBM. I simply think that BOTH subcultures would benefit from a separation and that EBM is not the same thing as goth. It is totally different from goth. NOT necessarily WORSE, BUT distinctly DIFFERENT. How many times do I have to repeat this before it is acknowledged by ANY of you?

No, I don't like it, but that's a matter of taste.

, Detroiters place a LOT more emphasis on mindset than appearance/choice of music/etc when it comes to defining what "goth" is.

Okay, that was a backhanded slap. Firstly, Detroit is no different from anywhere else in that. What I am saying about there being standards is quite radical. Most people in the scene say that "it's a mindset" or similar.

In fact, I would have said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. But I have come to the conclusion that some things simply cannot fit in the goth subculture without obliterating it.

Look, EBM is very big and very successful and I'm happy, get that HAPPY, for the EBM fans that their genre has done so well. But it's not goth and it is easily big enough to make it on its own and too big to stay in the nest without crushing goth entirely.

Besides, the development of EBM is probably stifled by being stuck within the goth scene. I mean, I bet on its own, EBM would come up with something better for a next step than powernoise (as near as I can tell, that means static played at top volume through a club system. Oh, well, I don't have the patience for Satie either). I think that EBM fans and DJ's are not as free to explore other aspects of electronic music, well, not exposed to as many, while in the goth scene. I think that the growth of EBM is hurt by being tied to a genre that most of its adherents consider obsolete.

Another possible reason you're clashing in this discussion with Detroiters is the fact that very few of us have the freedom to be 24/7 goths in appearance & lifestyle

I really take exception to that assumption.

I am thrilled that I might be able to dye my hair an odd color again because I won't be working during the semester (school comes first, now that I've clawed my way back to full-time student status, after being out of school for almost 10 years now and I don't have a lot of expenses). But I haven't been able to dye my hair an odd color in a long time because

I'VE BEEN A SECRETARY SINCE I WAS 20. Only in the last few years have I been able to wear something other than a suit to work, but business casual still ain't 24 hour goth. I don't wear all black to work, ever, when I'm working.

Now, the first time I've been able to dye my hair since I was 19, I am worried about whether or not the purple will come out of the gray hairs before I have to go back to work. So please don't make that assumption about me again.

And I can see where you would fight tooth-and-nail to try to keep it pure.

Then you haven't read my posts. What I am saying is that, after long struggle for a mere place at the table for oldschool goth, ambient, and really anything that has anything to do with the original goth aesthetic, I have eventually been forced to the conclusion that it cannot coexist in the same subculture as warehouse parties. So that I will be able to have the one thing that I enjoy not beutterly destroyed. It's not about it being diluted, it's about it being GONE, because that's what had happened where I was.

and yet ACCEPT it as part of the culture because, as long as the mindset is there, there's nothing threatening or wrong in broadening the definition a bit.

The mindset isn't there in EBM. It's not the same thing at all. Please re-read my last post.

In fact, would you have seen homophobic goths even 10 years ago? No! The guys would be in skirts, not making fun of guys in skirts. THAT, in a nutshell, is the mindset.

If someone wants to judge my "worthiness as a goth" by the fact that I like EBM, buy the occasional dress or accessory at HT,

Once again, you are saying exactly the same thing the others said and once again, it still ignores completley what I actually said, which was specifically that I don't think someone is ungoth if they shop there at all, but that the head to toe hot topic thing is tacky and not really goth. I also specifically said several times that it's fine if a goth wants to listen to EBM too. Goths tend to be eclectic. Heck, I listen to bluegrass at times. What I said was that you really should have to listen to some goth, have some interest in the actual goth subculture.

I'll just ignore the insinuation that my sense of identity is dependent on my image of goth since you "don't have a grudge" Because if you had a grudge, that would be a really childish cheap shot.

And, FC, if it's not a grudge, why are you still carrying it? Why do you keep bringing it up? I had tried very hard to forget the whole thing, and I did not bring it up again, but you just want to argue about it.

In fact, that's a big part of why I left. Because you were a mod and you did something that inappropriate and then, when I asked you to stop, you insisted on continuing to try to argue with me about it. You did not talk about letting it drop, you talked about how "well, I was really right and you were wrong becuase of this or that" Instead of apologizing that your "joke" caused offense, or simply letting the matter drop, you bitched endlessly about how dare I take offense. You posted hostile responses to everything I've said ever since. (And you're apparently still doing it.) You continued to contact me about how you felt you were right, even after I left.

Why was your post so hostile, since you supposedly are "more sympathetic" and "don't have a grudge?"

And if you're not suppressing dissent or holding a grudge, then why are you still agreeing with them, even though you claim you feel as I do.?

I find it interesting that, once again, your response is to get pissed off and feel attacked when you're disagreed with.

Nope. No grudge. No grudge at all.

Okay, so you're still obsessed with proving that you don't have a grudge, and you're going to continue to respond in a hostile fashion to everything I say, nor will you allow the matter to drop, until I "admit" that you don't have a grudge. Okay, you don't have a grudge. NOW will you please let it drop and stop behaving as if you had a grudge?

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Hermine]

I didn't just define oldschool goth. In another post, I also defined the goth aesthetic, as including things other than just the one genre, but still being a specific aesthetic (including, among other things, being focussed on melody, rather than rhythmn. Practically a whole different medium, that difference)

Some Skinny Puppy fits into that nicely. Some doesn't. So, some would play well at a goth club, some wouldn't.

That's not unusual. Some of my boi's band's stuff would play well at a goth club, some wouldn't and they're not a really weird experimental band that nobody can characterize (My boi's is just your average rock band just crawling out of the basement; not even a goth band, just a band)

But I don't think that techno fits into that at all. That's why DJ's that play both have to do hard sets and soft sets. Because it's just not at all the same music or mindset. It's not even constructed on the same principles. It doesn't mean one's inherently better or worse (and I never said being more to my tastes or less popular/userfriendly made something better either), just that it's two different things.

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Jarodaka]

actually hermine gave her definition of goth music and Industrial would not fit her definition (distorted guitars, born out of punk, etc) so to her and others, Skinny Puppy is no more goth than the newest VNV nation album.  Is it?

Maybe, I can understand the argument. Goth rock and Industrial come from different places and mindsets. There has been cross-pollination and Hermine's point that (today's, not ye olde schoole Front 242) EBM has evolved to the point that shoving it under the goth label is more damaging-- both financially and culturally, if I'm following this right? -- than helpful... at least for the DC/Bmore scene. Heh, I feel like I'm missing a qualifier.

EBM is really an offspring of industrial, so why if industrial is an offspring of goth,

Industrial actually predates goth rock. See Wikipedia links above.

As far as labels.....I know why they exist, my point is that synthpop, future pop, industrial, EBM.....it's all too difficult to really tell anymore.  I don't wish to label any of that or exclude any of it.    You apparently do, that's fine, but you have to admit that there are lots of groups who could fall into any of those categories.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, absolutely, I want to exclude music I'm not interested in or am not in the mood to dance to. Sometimes I want to listen to the White Stripes or Electric Six, but when I go out to a club to dance there's a certain kind of music I prefer. It's definitely not Top 40 (though it can be fun, but there's still so much in the greater goth subculture I have yet to discover, understand, appreciate, and absorbe, I'd like to stick with it for awhile). The 'lots of groups not falling into certain categories' is where we get the fun of subgenre identification. That's why VNV and Apop said, "futurepop." They felt they artistically moved enough in a different direction that a new label was appropriate. I'm all for it, exclusion and all.

But I'd say I'm with you, Black Sunday, in that I like most of the music in the Detroit scene and the breaking/crushing point of EBM-over-gothrock has not been reached here. Also, based on my experiences, I doubt it will happen anytime soon here, if ever.

[Hermine]

So if you consider some Skinny Puppy to be goth

WRONG AGAIN!

I said that some skinny puppy plays well at a goth club (e.g. Warlock), not that it was goth, as in the genre. I also said that some of my boi's ordinary nongoth band's stuff would play well at a goth club.

Goth is a specific genre. Just the way it works. Being within that specific genre and being something that can play well in a club that centers on that genre are two different things. I don't think that clubs should be just oldschool, deathrock, and new wave, but I also think that some things fit into that aesthetic, as in go well with goth music, for instance, in a set, and as in appealing to the same groups of people, and some things don't.

Edit to add; yes, Jarodak, you understand that point.

The one thing I'd like to stress is that I don't think it's good for either genre. I think that this current compromise doesn't really make anyone happy--well, like you said, sometimes you're in the mood for White Stripes (my boi likes them, and played Elephant over and over until I was tempted to hide it from him), and sometimes you're in the mood for...um..I dunno, my boi's band. And I think that, if you go to an oontzy-oriented club, you are going to be expecting (and, presumably, in the mood for) a particular type of music and, personally, when an oontzy song comes on in a swirly-type club, it spoils my groove. So why not say, well, here's a place for this type of music and here's a place for that, and you know where to go for each, and it will fit your mindset when you come in because you're prepared for that type of experience.

And thank you for your help in explaining. It can be sort of difficult for me to get heard sometimes.

[Jarodaka]

I don't think that clubs should be just oldschool, deathrock, and new wave,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, I'd go to a night labeled 'Goth rock - death rock - new wave.' Maybe a sort of contranight to Luna's Oontz... ooh. Sounds interesting, and, after reading and researching for this thread, I realized I've not been exposed to the 'goth roots' as much as I thought.