Is it time for EBM to leave the nest?

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Hermine]

I don't go to the warehouse parties.

I do, however, still have to deal with even the best goth nights still thinking they have to play the dancey shit later in the night. Though in some, they're starting to get over that (in at least one, they've discovered that it clears the floor at any hour there)

And what I was TRYING to do was explain the ideas that the struggle to make these goth events happen has given me about the direction that goth is going and the direction it needs to go.

[bav]

I don't go to the warehouse parties.

I do, however, still have to deal with even the best goth nights still thinking they have to play the dancey shit later in the night.  Though in some, they're starting to get over that (in at least one, they've discovered that it clears the floor at any hour there)

And what I was TRYING to do was explain the ideas that the struggle to make these goth events happen has given me about the direction that goth is going and the direction it needs to go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So this whole thing essentially boils down to the idea that a night labelled a goth night should not play the oonzty-dance shite. I know there's a ton of reasons why, but is the the nut of it?

This thread has gone everywhere so I'm just trying to pick out the signal from the noise.

[Jarodaka]

...Jarodak...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I've been called 'Jarodaka', 'J-rod', but 'Jarodak?' That sounds like, "Jarod, Ack!" (At least in the way my internal, Internet-reading voice pronounces it.)

Jarod a.k.a. Mister

[Jarodaka]

if i like it, i like it. how old the people are in the scene, what they are wearing, where it is, where it came from originally, what it has transformed into - is not relevant to me. i don't see why people make such a big deal about issues like that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is it important (all except for age, which is largely irrelevant)? Because it's subculture. It's defined by not being culture. Losing sight of the history and, yes, the fashion loses sight of what makes goth sub-. It's kinda the whole point.

it's music. enjoy it or don't.

i understand this is not the exact point trying to made here by others - but this is the point i have now made here.

Hmm, see my above post on why labels and excluding music is good. Sure, I can just enjoy the music, but I'm expecting certain things when I walk into City Club versus, say, Necto on Fridays... er Saturday, And with one of Hermine's points, she likes the goth rock sound and certain, close derivatives. By tossing 'goth' into the ever-growing EBM crowd, the goth is getting drowned out and we're losing out on some excellent music which can still have a profitable, if smaller, place in clubs. (The drowning of which, again, it doesn't seem like Detroit is in danger of doing because we all turn into whiny goths when EBM sets go on too long. :grin: )

[JaneDead]

hermine- i was being quite serious. i don't understand what is really being discussed here anymore. part of the reason for that is i do not understand some of the terminology. another part of it is that i don't know your "scene" where you live. so instead of being rude and calling people out maybe you could explain more clearly for those of us that genuinely do not get it.

[phee]

I was systematically driven out of the forum by constant abuse from all directions.

This would imply a conspiracy, do you believe this?

Also I don't believe that when one disagrees they are "Jumping on you" I think that they are simply disagreeing.

Also I am concerned about the use of the term abuse, I take this term very seriously, I would like to know what you would define as abuse... so I know if I am over reacting or not.

as far as the conformity/group thinking stuff, is this necessarily all negative?

I like groups that can think.

I am also wondering if what "Goth" means is up to the individual who is using the term or if there is some type of rules that he/she must conform to in order to be a real "goth" and if so who is responsible for creating/determaning who is "real" and who is "fake"

I hope that you are not feeling abused Hermine, if so please let me know.

-thanks

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Hermine]

Ok, I've been called 'Jarodaka', 'J-rod', but 'Jarodak?'  That sounds like, "Jarod, Ack!"  (At least in the way my internal, Internet-reading voice pronounces it.)

Jarod a.k.a. Mister 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I saw a couple of posts referring to you that way and thought you had a new nickname. I thought it was a bit odd but, "when in Rome," I thought. Sorry, hope you weren't offended. I was, apparently repeating someone else's typo.

Phee, I had to deal with a whole lot of hostility from all directions the last time I was here. I don't think it was a conspiracy, but I do think that it was groupthink.

I am merely pointing out that this phenomenon (groupthink), which can happen to one degree or another on any forum and, indeed, in any social group happens here a lot, sometimes to the detriment of discourse.

It becomes about winning instead of discussing and the group does not make an effort to understand what is being said by the person who is trying to introduce a new idea, often to the point of repeating objectively wrong assumptions about what is being said.

I'm talking about the psychological phenomenon. I'm not saying "you're all a bunch of sheep" or anything like that but "You're falling victim pretty often to something that can happen to anybody and it's affecting the quality of discussion. Maybe you should watch out for that."

As for the rest, I PM'ed you.

So this whole thing essentially boils down to the idea that a night labelled a goth night should not play the oonzty-dance shite. I know there's a ton of reasons why, but is the the nut of it?

Yes, that and the fact that it's possible to have one, and that what succeeds or fails in the scene has a lot to do with people in the scene being willing to make an effort to support it.

We wouldn't have goth nights where I am if people who wanted that sort of thing hadn't taken an active role and gotten involved. For a long time we didn't.

Dynomite, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you, but I do feel that you were a bit snarky. I also think you're really bright and can follow it.

I know my verbosity can be a bit much for anyone, though. What terms are throwing you off?

The general themes are:

1. I think that both EBM and goth suffer from being in one scene. The EBM groove is diluted by the goth stuff and likewise the goth groove and the EBM stuff. They attract different crowds and I think that trying to compromise between the two really makes nobody happy. I also think that goth is disappearing as a result and the development/forward movement of EBM is probably being inhibited too.

1a. I don't think that goths can't like EBM at all or there can't be cross-pollination, just that people should know what kind of music will be played when they go to a particular event.

1b. I don't think that one is better (well, I like one much more than the other, but that's my taste) just that they're totally different things.

1c. I think that EBM's continued popularity at levels that will sustain the sort of venues that work best for it is better served if it is not dependent on the temporary boom in the popularity of goth.

2. I think that having a scene so dependent on the warehouse type nights is very risky for the future of the scene (I'm not saying no warehouse parties, I'm saying not just warehouse parties) because

2a. The current influx of people into the goth scene is not necessarily a permanent thing and if you're totally dependent on that, what's going to happen when not everyone stays? That's happened before (e.g. about 10 years ago with the advent of NIN and Marilyn Manson), as many of you may remember.

2b. Warehouse parties are risky for a number of reasons, including the high number of HS seniors and college students that it attracts, creating a high turnover of attendees, which is always risky,

2c. and the fact that this can create drug problems; one kid OD's on E(or water while on E) and you're going to be, at best saddled with some major security expenses and inconveniences(in my local scene, the big club in the area has to thoroughly search every single person that comes in), and at worst shut down. Younger folks are, unfortunately, more likely to do drugs; whereas the have generally already been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and quit years ago. For instance, most pot users quit in their late twenties. With the RAVE act, which I absolutely do not agree with, but which is still a reality, promotors can face

criminal charges as a result of this. Not that there shouldn't be warehouse parties, but warehouse parties are too risky to be the _only_ type of event keeping the scene alive.

3. Goth nights in small venues can still be profitable. Goth is not warehouse music, it never has belonged in that sort of venue. There's nothing wrong with small venues. Just work with a regular bar that has an entertainment license (I don't know MI/Detroit licensing regulation, but in most places, it's doable. Heck, SF has a really diverse scene and their licensing regulations are f---ing brutal)

4. What venues (someone mentioned that small venues don't do well there) succeed or fail depends on the involvement of people in supporting them; both going out and helping promote. If you want small venues, you've gotta support 'em. For instance, small clubs often don't have the ad budget of big ones ones, so word of mouth and fliers are important. Leaving a few fliers at the goth-oriented businesses you frequent during a shopping trip isn't too difficult and, in some cases, can get you guestlisted, especially since small nights are sometimes more oriented towards happy venues (e.g. bar totals and lack of disruption) than door takes.

I also want to repeat something that was probably missed and might help towards understanding: Maybe part of my reaction is that we have some REALLY BAD EBM DJ's in DC. I mean, DC is not an electronic music mecca, and it's a really small scene. So the pool is limited and the standards are not always as high for DJs. Even I, who am not all that into techno, can tell how badly they're doing it, and I've had promotors actually apologize for the DJ, saying "we try not to have him in the rotation too much" Some of these folks would make any self-respecting Detroiter go old-skool and "Hang the DJ."

I am not trying to attack you, I am not trying to attack your scene. I am trying to introduce an idea.

[JaneDead]

it sounds to me that you just are very passionate about the subject as maybe it effects your every day life, or social life, in a much more severe way than it effects anyone here? that may just be due to the fact where you live it is much more a factor to the "scene" than it is here? also i for one and not that big into the scene. not any scene really. i do not frequent clubs like i used to. and i really am NOT up on my music at all. i won't list all the terms/things that confused me- but one such thing was "swirly goth". i really have never ever heard that term. i mean i assume it has to do with music, but i don't know what specifically.

you are not being attacked hermine- i think it is more the we are coming from somewhere else, and you are coming from another direction. some of us are seeing "some points" and some of us are not relating to "other points". that is the way i view it anyways.

[phee]

Well stated Hermine and Dyno

What would you propose Hermine?

[Fierce Critter]

I'm sorry you see things the way you do, Hermine. There appears to be nothing I can say that can assuage the situation.

I'll leave any posts made by you alone from this point forward. Even put you on ignore if that would make your life on DGN more comfortable. I would only ask that you do the same for me.

[Jarodaka]

...Nazism. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this thread's value went to zero sooner than people realize. Ergo, Hermine technically loses the argument.

[phee]

Yeah... it's hard to say.... but the nazi thing... um yeah.... this thread has made me tired.... i dunno.

[Brenda Starrr]

Don't you all think it's time to close this thread? The horse is dead. Quit beating it.

[Hermine]

Jarod: I do hope you understand that I wasn't accusing anybody of nazism, nor was I saying anything that could possibly be construed as such.

FTR, what I said was that people were reacting as if I had embraced nazism, (in other words, quite appropriateley, to denote that the hostility of the reaction to my comment was excessive; to use reaction as if to nazism to denote overreaction, I think, is quite appropriate, especially given that it has been prevalent enough online to get its own rule.

I certainly hope that was a joke.

DynoMite:

The swirlygoth/stompygoth dichotomy refers to the two sides of the goth scene; On the swirly side, there's goth, ambient, ethereal the slower stuff, that's more for expressive, cobweb-clearing dancing and on the stompy side, there's the harder stuff EBM, Industrial, Futurepop, Synthpop, Electro, etc, that's for stomping and bouncing and punching invisible hobbits.

They don't have that expression in Detroit?

Yes, FierceCritter, I think you should leave me alone if you can't stop bringing that up, but I hope that you can. I thank you for being willing to let it go and I hope you can do so and still speak to me. That's up to you. I do enjoy your posts a lot of the time, but I really never want to hear about that incident again. I would not have brought it up and I won't ever mention it again.

It's not about being right, it's about being peaceful. I don't think we'll ever agree on who was right then, but for one, just want there to not be this dispute between us anymore and I would rather that it not spoil all of our future interaction. Can we just agree to disagree?

And Phee, please check your inbox; I really do have some serious concerns.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Having been in, around, and part of this "issue" for a long time , and poking my head into this thread as its developed, im apt just to leave the subject alone for now, as it has no perfect solution, at least not as i see it, and most all of the input i would add , has been stated in one way or another previously.

I "beat this one to death" online, on my radio show , even on my short lived public access tv spot we debated this one into the grave (bonus goth points?) as well as endless conversations in "real life" on this subject. Despite that, there is still much passion for the subject, and much left un-resolved.

At this point im only here to add , that this subject is perfectly valid, no reason to "close" any debate just because it seems insoluble.

As with many things in life, it can often be more about the process rather than the destination.

A bit of temperance is called for when a debate turns into an "argument". This subject (and others like it) that many are particularly passionate about can tend to make for an abrasive conversation not always easily navigated without any hurt feelings.

I think most everyone has done a great job of stating their points, even if i agree or disagree with some of them many have explained their positions very well. But a bit of relaxation of hostilities is in order, and it seems is happening.

[Black Sunday]

even on my short lived public access tv spot we debated this one into the grave (bonus goth points?) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you had a public access TV show? Was it like SNL's "goth talk" ?

how do you get a show? is it easy?

sorry this may be off topic.

[phee]

ooo ooo! please start a new thread!!!!

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Yes it was like SNL "goth talk" and you just need to poke aroudn your local cable station (call them) and ask if they have a public access TV program.

And yes this is off topic. Start a new thread if continued non topic-post comentary is needed before phee shoots us.

[DisturbedMania]

And the Gemini misses out on all this chaos? I guess all these technicalities just bored me in the first place. Hmmmmm..... In my humble opinion, listen to whatever ya want. If I don't like what's on the dancefloor I wander off. If I do- I'm there and ya can't stop me.

Personally, Hermine, if you saw that god-forsaken jukebox in City Club you'd have reason to laugh City Club into 2043. The anti-gothness of country music in my Saturday home scares me, Lord knows I've driven the City Club staff nuts about it with the complaints already.

Dunno, perhaps we should all keep the hell out of this discussion.

[Hermine]

Troy, you made some very good points, thank you. There's a reason you've built such a successful community.

I had hoped to offer an alternative solution, to look outside of the box to find a way that EBM and goth could still exist without creating so much conflict in the scene. I have been, for some time trying to find a solution that everyone can be happy with; which is why I'm saying that, while I do not see a problem with anyone participating in both, the two scenes should maybe separate in order that both can better develop independently.

I'm not saying that either is bad or should be eliminated, but, I think that a lot of people do end up feeling that way because this sort of conflict createes an either/or mentality, which is the box that I'm trying to get people to break out of.

The difference does make a lot of people very angry and that the conflict is splitting the scene already. As a result I have come to the conclusion(my conclusion; this is just my opinion and an idea that I'd like to be permitted to float) that it's best to split it in a way that's not destructive, but a project towards permitting more creative growth in both, and not in a way that either eliminates one of them, or divides people instead of just events along that line, which I fear may happen if this situation persists as a disagreement.

I think that this awkward compromise we have now cannot last and I'd rather see it end in a way that people can still participate in both and that people who prefer one don't end up angrily split from their friends who prefer the other. In my local scene at least, when people get pissed off, events die. They move events into conflict, they get all their friends to stop going to a particular venue that fired a friend of theirs (this recently kiled an event near me and almost wiped out the oldest continuous venue in the scene), the rivalries prevent there from being a coherent calendar; this sort of thing is bad for the scene. Save your anger for the industrial set, where it serves the purpose of creating lots of fun stomping.

I think that the fact that goth has birthed this new thing is something to celebrate, even if I'm not personally all that into the new thing. But I do think it's time for this exotic new bird to spread its wings.

However, I'm not sure I can handle the acrimonious reactions that come up whenever anyone mentions the issue, though their existence does underline the existence of a problem. Everybody on both sides gets very mad about this and I think that it's important to try to move forward and find a way out of this mess.

(edited for typos % general style pickiness)

[Jinx]

I think that the fact that goth has birthed this new thing is something to celebrate, even if I'm not personally all that into the new thing.  But I do think it's time for this exotic new bird to spread its wings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe that goth had anything to do with the birth of EBM at all. EBM/synthpop roots are much more determined by the techno trance community than the goth scene. Most of the EBM/ Synth artists have a strong background that is much more deeply rooted in the electronic community than the goth community. The style and progression can be much easier traced to electronic music. It is hard to make an argument that goth had anything to do with this current style growing into the music it is today. Other than the lack of new goth bands that have inspired us on the level that some of the older bands did. They do have a common history and similar fans but as a whole electronic music helped jumpstart it much more than goth.

This is exactly the type of discussion this board needs more of. Intelligent discourse wihtout all the stupid flame wars you find on other boards when someone says something that another disagree's with. GOOD JOB DGN

JINX

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Scary Guy]

Wow what a novel, sorry but I had to skip just about all of it as I don't have the time required to read it all.

http://www.di.fm/edmguide/edmguide.html

I pretty much agree fully with this guide (although it's linked with Industrial too but I'm not going to complain, much), But who cares where it evolved (or devolved depending on how you look at it) from. The fact is that it is it exists as a seperate entity.

Yes I mix it and pure goth music on my night that I spin, it's all good music to me. I'm not trying to pack a dancefloor on my Wednesdays. http://www.virtualblood.com/sgu/media/texts/playlists go there and view them if you don't believe me. Saturdays are somewhat different as at that point I am trying to work a dance floor.

Necto has two speprate club areas as well, and they're thinking about making the upstairs all synthpop/EBM/etc... on Mondays and in the Red Room have Industrial/goth purely.

I understand the arguement that clubs have though, even small ones that should play it where it would work. "why should I play goth music that no one except true fans want to dance to when I can play dancy graver stuff and get their bodies moving so they want to drink more". Most bar owners are only concerned with liquer sales as those are what really put money into the bars pocket.

I'm lucky, since I've done so much for them I can get away with playing just about ANYTHING I want and the owners don't bitch.

Thats what works, you seperate the two with the main part consisting of dance music and the secondary part having the eclectic rare and usually unheard stuff at the clubs.