Very interesting article...

[Dubh Aingeal]

This is an eye-opening report on a BBC documentary. I recommend it.

[Jarodaka]

Must. Not. Join. Politics debate.

I'll agree that these boobs are... well, boobs.

Also note that the CIA declared:

The CIA strongly disagreed, calling Rumsfeld's position a "complete fiction" and pointing out that the Soviet Union was disintegrating from within, could barely afford to feed their own people, and would collapse within a decade or two if simply left alone.

What? You mean it wasn't the all-powerful Reagan that finished off the Evil Empire? He just happened to president while the USSR fell apart? Egads! Such blasphemy!

/dammit

//too late

///I joined the debate

[Black Sunday]

Must.  Not.  Join.  Politics debate.

I'll agree that these boobs are... well, boobs.

Also note that the CIA declared:

What? You mean it wasn't the all-powerful Reagan that finished off the Evil Empire? He just happened to president while the USSR fell apart? Egads! Such blasphemy!

/dammit

//too late

///I joined the debate

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't read the link yet but to deny Reagan and the Pope had a hand in the downfall of the Soviet Union is crazy. Do I realy need to give examples?

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Jarodaka]

This particular article is summarizing a three hour BBC documentary.

[Jarodaka]

I didn't read the link yet but to deny Reagan and the Pope had a hand in the downfall of the Soviet Union is crazy.    Do I realy need to give examples?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please do.

[Black Sunday]

Jarod I always thought you were one of the brightest guys here on DGN, I'm surprised you think that Reagan didn't play a part in the Soviet Union's collapse....or that you think the Soviets would have bankrupted anyway a decade later? Or you were just commenting on the article?

Ok this is off the original topic but Reagan increased NASA's budget and rendered the Soviet's PKA (the russian space agency) somewhat irrelevant which cause more spending by the USSR on the Baikonur Cosmodrome.

Reagan also aided the mujahideen Taliban in Afghanistan who repelled the Soviet attack in the 1980's. Would the Taliban have been able to defeat the Soviets alone? Not likely since the U.S. aided them with surface to air missles which took out a heavy percentage of Russian planes and helicopters. What if the Soviets were able to occupy Afghanistan? Then we have a whole new ballgame.

Reagan also made allies in Western Europe which in turn limited it's exporting of new technologies into Europe so the Soviet Union lowered it's gas exports for trade and thus causing cheaper oil prices which meant less revenue for the Soviet Union. Carter's answer was the grain embargo which did nothing but cause hunger in the USSR.

Reagan's military budget was an alarming 253 billion dollars. This caused the Soviets to raise it's % of GDP on military spending from 22% pre-Reagan to 27% after Reagan came into office.

****Though it is true that the U.S. aided the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, looking back it was probably wrong, but it's not as black and white as some say. We helped them to fight our enemies (USSR and Iran).

A good book on this is "Reagan's War" by Peter Schweizer. Or the Cato institue website, yes I know it is biased but it gives sources for their statistics wich are not biased.

[Marblez]

Jarod I always thought you were one of the brightest guys here on DGN, I'm surprised you think that Reagan didn't play a part in the Soviet Union's collapse....or that you think the Soviets would have bankrupted anyway a decade later?  Or you were just commenting on the article?

Ok this is off the original topic but Reagan increased NASA's budget and rendered the Soviet's PKA (the russian space agency) somewhat irrelevant which cause more spending by the USSR on the Baikonur Cosmodrome. 

Reagan also aided the mujahideen Taliban in Afghanistan who repelled the Soviet attack in the 1980's.    Would the Taliban have been able to defeat the Soviets alone?  Not likely since the U.S. aided them with surface to air missles which took out a heavy percentage of Russian planes and helicopters.  What if the Soviets were able to occupy Afghanistan?  Then we have a whole new ballgame.

Reagan also made allies in Western Europe which in turn limited it's exporting of new technologies into Europe so the Soviet Union lowered it's gas exports for trade and thus causing cheaper oil prices which meant less revenue for the Soviet Union.    Carter's answer was the grain embargo which did nothing but cause hunger in the USSR.

Reagan's military budget was an alarming 253 billion dollars.    This caused the Soviets to raise it's % of GDP on military spending from 22% pre-Reagan to 27% after Reagan came into office. 

****Though it is true that the U.S. aided the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, looking back it was probably wrong, but it's not as black and white as some say.  We helped them to fight our enemies (USSR and Iran).     

A good book on this is "Reagan's War" by Peter Schweizer.  Or the Cato institue website, yes I know it is biased but it gives sources for their statistics wich are not biased.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was quite impressed Black Sunday, quite. Well, until you mispelled "witch".

[fallennon]

I have to give you a hand Black Sunday...big feet and intelligent? Uh oh...hold me back LOL...

[Jarodaka]

To reformulate my previous post (so it's more academic and less reactionary): it's not that Reagan wasn't proactive in dismantling Soviet Russia, but, at best, he sped things up by a couple years, if at all.

[Black Sunday]

First I want to apologize for hijacking this thread.

Secondly thanks Fallenon, but I actually think The Dark and Jarod are the most intelligent people here in the current affairs forum. Everyone here is really smart but those guys seem really well read.

Ok Jarod,

I really disagree with you on this one though. I think had Carter won re-election that it's completely possible the Soviet Union would still exist today, especially if they could have gotten into the European Union.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. By the way, although Russia didn't agree with the war in Iraq - I find it ironic (or strange?) that they are now one of the U.S. staunchest allies. Did you know that in mock elections around the world that only in a few countries Bush won.....Russia was one of them (Israel was another, Iraq was another, I forget the others but there weren't many).

[fallennon]

Once again I have to agree with you. Jarod is always a well informed speaker!

[The_Dark]

Well, my head doth swell. Thanks for the compliment though I will have to disagree.. I am not that smart.

[Jarodaka]

First I want to apologize for hijacking this thread.

Heh, don't think I didn't see it coming (in general, not from you specifically) when I posted my remark above. The fall of the Soviet Union and Reagan's contribution is not an insignificant premise of the article. So it's not like an all out threadjack.