Prolife and for the Death Penalty

[Steven]

Well yeah, I can respect that... but at this rate, the stigma will disappear from abortion and the people who feel a "moral" conflict will become fewer and fewer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this is true.

I also think its tragic.

As is our current state of enlightentment where we reduce one another to templates and statistics and various other forms of PC disconnectedness......

I have a terrible flaw in that I am excited by human potential, or social potential if you will. Seeing someone have breakthrough is golden to me. Watching a leader develop and come into his or her own excites me. Listening to the voice of experience and drawing from it fullfills me. So I take this flaw of mine and apply it to the children I see and wonder who and what they'll become, or worse - I use my Ideal-O-Vision on pregnant women I might see or speak to and wonder what challenges they'll face in preparing that child to build a legacy of their own.

And I do this sometimes, because in reality my own mother was a horrendous faliure, broke, and drunk, and drug addicted and shiftless, where my father was viscious and abusive and very limited. And despite all that shit, and beleive me there was plenty, I thank god that those two young people with no business reproducing did not abort me.

[BrassFusion]

I think this is true.

I also think its tragic.

As is our current state of enlightentment where we reduce one another to templates and statistics and various other forms of PC disconnectedness......

I have a terrible flaw in that I am excited by human potential, or social potential if you will.  Seeing someone have breakthrough is golden to me.  Watching a leader develop and come into his or her own excites me.  Listening to the voice of experience and drawing from it fullfills me.  So I take this flaw of mine and apply it to the children I see and wonder who and what they'll become, or worse - I use my Ideal-O-Vision on pregnant women I might see or speak to and wonder what challenges they'll face in preparing that child to build a legacy of their own. 

And I do this sometimes, because in reality my own mother was a horrendous faliure, broke, and drunk, and drug addicted and shiftless, where my father was viscious and abusive and very limited.  And despite all that shit, and beleive me there was plenty, I thank god that those two young people with no business reproducing did not abort me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are but the sum of our memories, and I have no meaningful recollection of anything that happened before I was two years old.

If my mother had had me aborted, it wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest. Care to guess why?

[Steven]

We are but the sum of our memories, and I have no meaningful recollection of anything that happened before I was two years old.

If my mother had had me aborted, it wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest. Care to guess why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(My theory - I know your answer will differ) because at this stage in the game, you've yet to discover your true purpose and potential, your worldview is still for the most part self serving, and you seldom if ever consider what type of legacy you are creating on a daily basis.

....... you see I beleive that we are much more than just the sum of our memories. And my statement about being glad to have not been aborted had nothign to do with that pre-conceived perioid of time. I'm talking about what's done with the life that is led, the fruition of all the experience and efforts. What did you do with the life that was given you?

[Lilith]

I can agree with most of what you said, Kelly, but...

There will always be more children in need than couples that are able to give those children homes. It is piss poor planning to bring a child to term and decide to "adopt out" without knowing where it's going. A zygote isn't any more sacred to nature than it is to people who don't know it exists until it's flushed out of the system.

Sorry for the clinical terms, but that's all life is. Life doesn't become sacred until awareness and some degree of intelligence. The mother/newborn child bond, for example: I assure you, the infant has no idea what's going on. What's at play at that point is hormones on the part of the mother. Do any of you remember the moment you first looked into your mother's eyes and felt a permanent bond of love and devotion?

Hell, I'd support infanticide if there weren't more technologically advanced ways to get the job done before it would cause pain to the fetus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I/m just curious

Do you have any kids or have you ever been Pregnant befor?

[Homicidalheathen]

There is a easy solution to all of this: it's called keeping your legs closed. Sorry, but I was poor for awhile when I was younger, no birth control.......no sex. Period. And yes, I went without sex for a couple years. When your worried about getting food on the table, your not so horny anyway.

I don't know about killing somone who gets carried away with abortions......but sterilization......maybe.

[BrassFusion]

(My theory - I know your answer will differ) because at this stage in the game, you've yet to discover your true purpose and potential,  your worldview is still for the most part self serving, and you seldom if ever consider what type of legacy you are creating on a daily basis.

....... you see I beleive that we are much more than just the sum of our memories.  And my statement about being glad to have not been aborted had nothign to do with that pre-conceived perioid of time.  I'm talking about what's done with the life that is led, the fruition of all the experience and efforts.  What did you do with the life that was given you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't understand what a self-serving worldview has to do with me believing that the world would still turn without me. The conundrum here is that many people believe every fetus has a purpose. Many of those foeti are aborted, either at will or by chance. What of their purposes? The world isn't perfect, but it's functioning pretty well without them.

I'm happy with my life so far, and I'm glad to be alive, believe me. However, had I been aborted... I wouldn't have known what I was missing. Or in your dogma, I'd have gone to pre-hell and played with puppies and Socrates for eternity. Or do aborted foeti and the unbaptized get to go to heaven now? Did they change the rules?

I/m just curious

Do you have any kids or have you ever been Pregnant befor?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No and no. I plan to, when I'm ready and in a permanent relationship and can afford it. I'm pretty young yet. One of my own, see where that goes, maybe a second, maybe adopt a third.

Edit: there's no such word as "fetii." =)

[phee]

Puppies and Socrates!!!

[Steven]

I don't understand what a self-serving worldview has to do with me believing that the world would still turn without me. The conundrum here is that many people believe every fetus has a purpose. Many of those foeti are aborted, either at will or by chance. What of their purposes? The world isn't perfect, but it's functioning pretty well without them.

I'm happy with my life so far, and I'm glad to be alive, believe me. However, had I been aborted... I wouldn't have known what I was missing. Or in your dogma, I'd have gone to pre-hell and played with puppies and Socrates for eternity. Or do aborted foeti and the unbaptized get to go to heaven now? Did they change the rules?

Edit: there's no such word as "fetii." =)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I mean by the self serving comment is that when your focus is outward, you tend to see value in the potential in others, to serve others, to make an impact. When your focused with self, others really dont matter much. I am not slagging you - I'm simply stating that this seems to bear little importance to you right now, your young, smart, full of fiery ideals and have not yet run the long term race coupled with all of its responsibilities and twists. It has a way of changing your perspective, age does. Some things become more important, some things lose their shine.

There will be a time in your life when someone comes into it, perhaps even breifly, that challenges and motivates you and shapes you in a way that you'll never expect. At that point in time, you'll be thankful for that unique experience. And you'll take that experience with you wherever you go, it will continue to manifest in many ways, likewise influencing others. Humans are people, and People are unique. They are one of a kind. Not everyone is supposed to cure cancer. Maybe one of them is just supposed to have a conversation with you at the bus stop. But all of it counts, as life will not allow us all the convenience of a clinical perspective on every issue.

As for my "Dogma"......tell you what - ask me again what I beleive when you really want to know.

I'm not really a person who clings to dogma or religiosity, I thought by now you'd have relaized that bout me, and to be honest I did not even pull the God card in any of this conversation, I've been sharing my own (Steven's) point of view.

To close - its not your knowledge of what you may have missed if you'd been aborted that I was talking about. I'm talking about the world's experience of knowing YOU, or the potential you.

[phee]

I was aborted and you don't see me complaining....

[BrassFusion]

What I mean by the self serving comment is that when your focus is outward, you tend to see value in the potential in others, to serve others, to make an impact.  When your focused with self, others really dont matter much.  I am not slagging you - I'm simply stating that this seems to bear little importance to you right now, your young, smart, full of fiery ideals and have not yet run the long term race coupled with all of its responsibilities and twists.  It has a way of changing your perspective, age does.  Some things become more important, some things lose their shine.

There will be a time in your life when someone comes into it, perhaps even breifly, that challenges and motivates you and shapes you in a way that you'll never expect.  At that point in time, you'll be thankful for that unique experience.  And you'll take that experience with you wherever you go, it will continue to manifest in many ways, likewise influencing others.  Humans are people, and People are unique.  They are one of a kind.  Not everyone is supposed to cure cancer.  Maybe one of them is just supposed to have a conversation with you at the bus stop.  But all of it counts, as life will not allow us all the convenience of a clinical perspective on every issue. 

As for my "Dogma"......tell you what - ask me again what I beleive when you really want to know.

I'm not really a person who clings to dogma or religiosity, I thought by now you'd have relaized that bout me, and to be honest I did not even pull the God card in any of this conversation, I've been sharing my own (Steven's) point of view.

To close - its not your knowledge of what you may have missed if you'd been aborted that I was talking about.  I'm talking about the world's experience of knowing YOU, or the potential you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no illusions of importance. I know that I'm unique, but that doesn't make me indispensible. If I committed suicide today, you might cry, being a sensitive person, and you'd probably miss me for a time. But you'd get on with your life. Everyone would.

Each of us is a molecule of water in the sea. If one of us evaporates, we'll be replaced by another raindrop. This is more true today than it ever has been, as a result of the increasing global population.

You and I are different in that I'm young and brash and you're older and peaceful-minded. Every once in a while, you play it against me that you're experienced and wise, and that I'm intelligent but developing. Is it not possible, in this case and in some others, that your fear of your own mortality has colored your judgment, and that my youth allows me to be more objective?

[Steven]

I have no illusions of importance. I know that I'm unique, but that doesn't make me indispensible. If I committed suicide today, you might cry, being a sensitive person, and you'd probably miss me for a time. But you'd get on with your life. Everyone would.

Each of us is a molecule of water in the sea. If one of us evaporates, we'll be replaced by another raindrop. This is more true today than it ever has been, as a result of the increasing global population.

You and I are different in that I'm young and brash and you're older and peaceful-minded. Every once in a while, you play it against me that you're experienced and wise, and that I'm intelligent but developing. Is it not possible, in this case and in some others, that your fear of your own mortality has colored your judgment, and that my youth allows me to be more objective?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure its possible, but that's not whats going on here - at least not in my case.

Nor am I trying to play anything against you - such as age or alleged wisdom - I'm not your opponent. Let's consider a couple of things:

you used words like "indispensible" when I do not. Instead I used words like "unique" in this discussion we're having. It has everything to do with our points of view - yours seem to me, to be pretty black and white - and I'm simply saying that hey - its really not thst simple. And the shades of gray that we experience are measurably valuable and life changing.

Of course the world will not stop spinning at your death, thats not my point. My point is quite simply, that in my world, at this stage of my life, potential is something that should be valued and even gaurded to a certain degree, and that I think (of course I could be wrong) you'll understand that statement with greater depth when you become older. So how do I share that beleif with you without offending you???

Its not a put down when I say that Brass. I'm simply trying to draw to your attention that there are other motivations beside your own that are viable and sound, but they come from a different platform based on expereinces that have led me to where I am today. I'm not attempting to be dismissive, as if I hold some enlightened position beleive it or not. But I also do not think and react like a 23 (or whatever) year old. There is nothing wrong with being your age, and in fact I think you have gifts that I would have dreamed of having in comparison, and your points of view do indeed count, but sometimes only to a degree (and vice versa) because my world is so diffferent than yours.

OK tha t was overdone. You get it.

I had to stifle a chuckle at your sensitivity remark, one that I've heard from other people as well. I'll share this much with you...

I am not the kind of man who becomes devestated for one thing. I've seen too much, done too much, been through too much over the years for that. If you knew me and my story that would make more sense. But you only know me by the topics that i count as important on an online source, and I'm not going to bore everyone to death here trying to toot my own horn. Suffice it to say that I'm not green Brass, nor am I soft.

I also dont fear my demise as it approaches (by the way I'm only 39), nor do I fear judgement, or the great unknown, or a life lived in futility or whatever else you might think. Yo may think my beleif system is full of holes and unsound, but dont forget that I beleive in it, and plot my course with it, I move in faith, not fear, even though that faith is probably unimpressive to you.

[Steven]

and by the way is this thread jacked or what? we should start a new one called old farts and young guns.

[BrassFusion]

You never offend me... And I said you're "sensitive" as in you'd miss me if I offed myself... sensitive to other people...

[Hellion]

and by the way is this thread jacked or what?  we should start a new one called old farts and young guns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:laughing :laughing