what do you beleive in?

[torn asunder]

They ARE thoughts whose time has past.  The time of patriarchal societies (and of YHVH, a Jewish/Christian fatherly deity) is over.  With it, the religious philosophies of that time.

this is your opinion only, and not necessarily that of others on the board, which is fine, but there's no reason to condemn others for their personal beliefs, which appears to be what you're doing.

[Steven]

Your notions were identified as being pre-conceived by the obvious fact (due to your aforementioned faux pas)  that you've never read any Crowley.  I doubt you've read LaVey.  For that matter, I'm starting to believe you've never read any Foucalt, or Wilde, or Levi, or Lao Tse, or Muhammed. 

Because of your lack of education in these areas, it seems more than a bit naive to comment at all, let alone berate these philosophies.

Have you ever read any book other than the bible or its commentaries?

I'd be happy to give you success stories, but I don't discuss with the uninitiated.  My life speaks for itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

................................................................................

...............................

EDIT: This is the place where I called Steve an A Hole. It has since been wisely removed. For those of you whom I may have possibly offended with my angry flippancy, I beg your forgiveness. Now back to our program:

................................................................................

....................................

If I offended you in stating that I beleive that crowley or Levay or any of the lot were flawed or weak - that is my right and my opinion based on my own personal experiences. It was never mean t to be a shot at you personally - or I would have simply said "Steve your a pussy" - or whatever. I did not say those thigns, because I do not feel those thigns. And I remember too the same guy that helped me last XMas feed and clothe a homeless woman, that was you - I have not forgotten.

However - you seem to have a need to "conquer" me somehow - to elevate yourself by insiuating (actually that was kind of light) that you are an elevated persona and I am so obviously beneath you. "Do what thou wilt" Steve, but don't expect me to shudder or cower or go fetal or for my head to explode over your loftiness. I also wonder why you have this desire to place me beneath you....is it because my ignorance does not enlighten me to the fact that you are worthy of my subordination? Does this frustrate you that I do not take my righful place with the rest of those who's time has passed?? What motivates your need to attempt to reduce me? After all, I'm just some small minded zealout. Why do you bother? Make your case dude, but don't try calling me out or bother trying to ridicule me - its a waste of both our time as we obviously have different forms of reverance for what we hold onto as truth. I have not been an asshole to you - you however - are being an asshole to me. I have no problem saying this to you in a public forum - I see no need to PM you as you've chosen a public medium to attempt to chastize me. If you would rather I say this to you directly, that again I am more than willing to do.

Also bear in mind that I did not ask you for success stories - I am not in competion with you. You took a shot at me, and I responded by asking you to tell me about your life, your choices, hence your lifestyle. Honest questions dude, from the "uninitiated", who wants to know about your convictions. Why would that threaten you? You sound nervous to me. Every time you "prove yourself" - you sound nervous. Courage is a relatively silent thing is it not??? You simply move thru life. You however - need a bullhorn, and I'm not it Steve. Your not going to bait me, and I'm not going to be reduced by you simply because you dictate it. You want to talk to me talk to me. I am right here. In this place I have been open and honest. I have stumbled and stepped on my own dick.. I have said at times "I dont know" or even "Good Point". Sometimes i have even said "gee I never thought about that" Do I sound intimidated to you? Do I sound like a man who is easily shaken? Do you think you are the only one who has ever attempted to conquer me, chastize me, or reduce me?

Granteed, I do say things very bluntly. I also live this way, very bluntly.

I said Anton Levay was a carnie. He was.

I also said that the life of self worship and self servitude is in my opinion, weakness. I still beleive that. But I'm going to make a sandwich in a minute and go to bed, and I'll be fine, as I do have the courage of my convictions, and your not on my hit list. Bear in mind however - that if I'm on yours, you'll be waiting a very long time for me to croak. I'm kind of ignorant that way.

My phone number is : (Edited at the request of my very wise and Beautiful Brenda Starr)

Do What Thou Wilt.

Steven

[theremper]

That is a difficult question since I believe all of reality is perception for example you and others percieve the ballon andthere it is that is a very simple and slightly off example yet you get the idea. So I guess I believe in perception and I also believe that there some form of higher spirtual beings.

I beleive in Balloons

What do you beleive in?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Fierce Critter]

I believe my TV died today.

Oh, suck.

[Steven]

PS - forgot to add one important point: Brass....I'm kinda sweet on you right about now.....

[Fierce Critter]

PS - forgot to add one important point:  Brass....I'm kinda sweet on you right about now.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two-timing bastard. I thought I was your sweetie-pie-hunny-bunch-o-lovin.

See what happens when I stop posting? I lose all my admirers. If only I could lose my detractors as easily...

Smilies and all that rot

[Guest Game of Chance]

this is your opinion only, and not necessarily that of others on the board, which is fine, but there's no reason to condemn others for their personal beliefs, which appears to be what you're doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its the beliefs themselves, not the people that believe them that I have issue with. I also find it funny that:

A. Most of the people on this site do not have clue one about/do not identify with the origins of the goth scene (since their core belief systems conflict with said origin)

B. People spouting off about subjects that they're uneducated in. Go read up on the subject, them come back to me with questions. You won't find me in a debate about which is the best eyeliner to use.

I stand my ground, and don't think there is anything more to be said on the subject.

I've made my peace with DGN.

[BrassFusion]

Its the beliefs themselves, not the people that believe them that I have issue with.  I also find it funny that:

A.  Most of the people on this site do not have clue one about/do not identify with the origins of the goth scene (since their core belief systems conflict with said origin)

B.  People spouting off about subjects that they're uneducated in.  Go read up on the subject, them come back to me with questions.  You won't find me in a debate about which is the best eyeliner to use.

I stand my ground, and don't think there is anything more to be said on the subject.

I've made my peace with DGN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you should find a forum full of educated people who are goths F'REAL f'real, since we're all so beneath you.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Maybe you should find a forum full of educated people who are goths F'REAL f'real, since we're all so beneath you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One step ahead of you. I started my own. =)

[Steven]

Two-timing bastard. I thought I was your sweetie-pie-hunny-bunch-o-lovin.

See what happens when I stop posting? I lose all my admirers. If only I could lose my detractors as easily...

Smilies and all that rot

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your in my inner circle my dear Camille........

[Brenda Starrr]

PS - forgot to add one important point:  Brass....I'm kinda sweet on you right about now.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cheater cheater pumpkin eater!!!

Oh, and you know I love you. But NO namecalling.

[Steven]

One step ahead of you.  I started my own.  =)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hear a bullhorn......(or was it a trumpet?)

Steve seems to me, to want to be the king of his universe, where we all are subject to his opinions and agenda and structure and background as would be designed and implimented and or pre-approved by him as the final authority. Anything else would simply not do. Possibly for fear of upsetting his applecart.

And if we won't play by his rules, he'll take his toys elsewhere.

I find this interesting coming from someone who has previously alluded to being part of the "great work". When I watch somebody do their thing, I try my best to be mindful that they are like me, human, fallible, possibly subject to some personal passion in their point of view, we all need to give each other a little grace in this regard.

But when your overtly prideful, and then you tend to remove yourself when your would be converts do not take up their delgated positions, I see this as weakness, adolescent, almost tantrum like behaviour.

Steve states that he has made peace wtih DGN. Well, I am a part of DGN. As is Erin. I've seen no efforts made toward peace. I see no attempt to find a common theread between us. I see no search on his part - for anything of value within us as individuals, at least in terms of Erin and myself. I beleive that in the beginning, I made a statement thtat pissed Steve off. Therefore I am the start of this problem. I accept responsibility for this. But I did not run from my mistake. I did not take personal shots at anyone. I meant no disrespect and attempted to move onward toward genuine conversation in the form of a question, and then re-calrified my intent when that too seemed to make no headway. No I am not a Goth. I am not many things. But I like hanging out here, giving and receiving, and I do feel that I am a part of this commmunity. What I do not feel - is a need for Steve's approval, or his stamp of authenticity.

[ssid67]

Sunday Brunch, Chicks with black lipstick sucking popsicles, speeding, jackalacokas,

Friday nights, swinging on real swings, jumping out of perfectly good airplanes,

moosh pits, tattoos, pain, lust, marlboro, pissing for distance, the sound of a hockey puck breaking teeth, rockabilly, latex, noir leather, social distortion, conspiracy theories, isolated areas, aurora borealis, midgets, pink hair, alpine, clockwork orange,

pink floyd, nylons, snow, laughter, high-heels, JFK, cuts and bruises, gin and tonic,

myths, fender stratocasters, lesbians, white noise, eyes, spiders, dental floss,

loss, destruction, ovulation, brain freeze, scars, darth vader, sins, hell, billions of dollars to go to mars for rocks, Detroit, suffering, scum, Buddha, medatation, medacation,

Loneliness, stimulation, nipple rings, Edison, Mass production, overpopulation,

alcoholics, FEMA, drug addiction, innocence, Ford, E, courage, drama free zones,

metro times, fevers, stoney creek, keggers, emotions, Bob marley, and so on....

[BrassFusion]

I agree, Steven. I didn't really know how bad it was until I pm'd with Steve a little. But I can't pin it just on him that he's a megalomaniac. There are SO many of those in the "goth" subculture. I know I'm one too, to some degree. I want everyone to agree with me that most of the people trying to define the scene are full of shit. It's a little awkward preaching to my friends about them trying to be less full of shit, but it is my lot. I shall be Mohammed and scale the shit mountain to be king. I'd better practice jai alai or something in case I need to defeat Steve in hand-to-hand combat for the title when I get there.

And ssid... Best beliefs ever.

[kellygrrrrrl]

Awwww....

Hey now....

Steves choice of belief system is his.

Perhaps an alternative belief system to some.

But to him it is very real.

He believes that having an opinion is important.

SO what if he refuses any Dogma....that is his choice.

He can only learn from his expiriences....and grow from them....

There is BUTTLOADS of information out there.....

He has obviously read a lot of material that the world has had to offer.

And from this...he can form an opinion...he's allowed!

But the thing Steve should also be sensitive about is that others may not agree. Which is fine.

No need to get heated, or point fingers....or single out.

Sounds like we're all a little fucked up on the whole subject.

We all have opinions on the subject, but is anybody right?

Nobody is right, everybody is wrong.......until the day comes when the big guy in the sky comes down and tells us what is up.....or until the day the earth explodes! :innocent

All we can do is live with some level of morality, respect to others/our surroundings, a calm heart, patience, and understanding that you, me, they we, are not perfect.

Nobody can hold anybody higher than anyone else.

The only thing that is under you is the ground.

We all have something in common.

We all want to be right.

But we are not.

No matter how much proof you have, because there is always something to disprove you.

Am I missing the point here?

(I think I might be....)???? :fear :whistling

[torn asunder]

it comes down to showing respect to others, no matter their beliefs, which some people don't appear to be capable of...

[Guest Game of Chance]

Not when they have no respect for mine.

I've read the bible. Several times actually. Took classes on the literature of the bible.

Also, The Dhammapadas, the Tao te Ching, The Upanishads, The Bhagavad-Gita, The Koran, etc, etc, etc.

Its easy to discredit something that you don't understand or aren't exposed to simply to make yourself feel better about yourself.

At least be educated in a subject if you're going to attempt to do so. That was the whole point.

Steven's and to some extent Brass Fusion's attempt to argue with me about philosophy remind me a lot of a recent girl (that I dated) that tried to tell me how to invest my money. She lives with her parents :laughing

[torn asunder]

Not when they have no respect for mine. 

I've read the bible.  Several times actually.  Took classes on the literature of the bible.

Also, The Dhammapadas, the Tao te Ching, The Upanishads, The Bhagavad-Gita, The Koran, etc, etc, etc.

Its easy to discredit something that you don't understand or aren't exposed to simply to make yourself feel better about yourself.

At least be educated in a subject if you're going to attempt to do so.  That was the whole point.

Steven's and to some extent Brass Fusion's attempt to argue with me about philosophy remind me a lot of a recent girl (that I dated) that tried to tell me how to invest my money.  She lives with her parents  :laughing

one doesn't need to be "educated" in the manner you suggest, to be able to discuss their own beliefs on a subject, and for someone else to say differently is being condescending and rude, in my opinion...

[Guest Game of Chance]

Perhaps you should reread the thread. Start from the beginning. I was not the one that

acted first. I'll finish a fight, but I'm not here looking for one.

I don't disagree at all. And again, I don't care how people live their lives. Its really none of my business. Kellygrrrl for example, I would consider one of my best friends (offline). She's christian. Ask her if we ever had an argument like this.

The reality is, the ideas I presented may or may not be something that you've thought about before. Does that mean they should be discredited?

Ask Copernicus how he feels about that.

[torn asunder]

i would say this...

Not even the slightest bit.  You have absolutely no idea how uneducated you sound in the above post.

...is a pretty good indication that you did...

[Guest Game of Chance]

i would say this...

...is a pretty good indication that you did...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL...I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Steven admitted his lack of education in this area. Its cool. There's a lot of stuff I don't know. There's even stuff that I think I know, but really don't.

Just don't try to sound like an expert when you're really not.

PS. Read the post above your last

[torn asunder]

whatever... i don't have the energy for this today...

[Guest Game of Chance]

Might want to try some yoga, dude. :laughing

[torn asunder]

my apologies if i interpreted anything incorrectly, or if i've offended anyone inadvertantly. i'm not in an especially good frame of mind now.

[BrassFusion]

I have a pretty good theory. Steve and Kelly never got into the same debate that Steven and Steve did because Steve is, at his core, shallow and Kelly's a very pretty, very sweet girl.

Steven just can't hold a candle to her in the pretty and/or sweet category, so Steve has no reason to pretend to respect his opinions.

At first I almost respected you. Then I tried to look for reasons to continue being civil to you. Now you've proven that you don't deserve respect or even civility. So fuck you. Sideways. On the record.