An 'atm For Jesus'

[Steven]

I have sat in my church and heard the pastor ask guests non believer and believers alike not to give anything and not to feel obligated or guilty. They were all invited to God's house and usually when some one is invited in to your home you do not expect them to pay for their time there.

After sitting in on a few board member meeting even though i am not a member I am fully aware that my tithes go in to paying our pastor or the music ministry director salary, how those salaries are based and why they voted in a raise or decrees and i am fully accepting of them spending there salary how ever they see fit for there family, if they take it and it is budgeted for them to go to disney then God has Bless them.

What i do have issue with is usually when some one serves the lord weather it be inventing an atm machine with super software or donating a few moments of time to sit with a family who suffered a death they usual don't think in dollars and cents. They don't plan to get rich and say things like if we do i'll donate, They think of how this will serve the Lord and hope it serves the purpose in which it is intended. I am not against any one making money to live/survive we all have too and If they do get rich along the way again God has Bless them. I also get a choice as to what Fund my tithe can go into, missions, general, community etc.......

As for other issues assocaited with an atm machine at church, If i forget then it would be convienant to get cash on the spot, I personally cant guarantee i could have a weekly withdrawl from my account due to i never know how much money i will have or what may come up to drain the account, i also cant be certain that if i forgot this week that the money will still be there for me to give next week for many of the same reasons stated above. I also know in my heart that if i miss a week or what have you it will be understood and forgiven as God knows i am not perfect and what is truly in my heart. I also beleive that God puts as much value in using your given talents such as fixing a leaking toliet for free, or playing the flute as he does with monetary doantions. There are so many ways to give.

IMHO

P>S

The yard sale in which i referenced in a pervious post in this thread will be held

Saturday October 14 2006

10 am - 2 pm

Bethany Baptist Church

19700 15 Mile Rd, Clinton Twp. Mi 48035

(586) 791 – 1190

If you plan to attend i suggest you go as ealry as possiable they Usually Get a Crowd of about 500 or more through out the day.

cool post.

great point about there being many ways to give.

[pomba gira]

I find no difficulty with the idea of the the "man" and his "wife" making a profit off of his invention.

Most christian churches, to my knowledge, do not request that you be poor. You may be surprised to learn that most churches don't even pay a pastor/minister, whatever, enough to maintain a decent middle class livelyhood... most of them have actual "jobs" outside of the church.

You are absolutely right. Until he retired a few years ago, my stepdad taught fulltime in the Detroit school system as well as pastoring their church. He (and my mom) spend VAST amounts of time & energy on their ministry, whether it be visiting the sick/bereaved/incarcerated, counseling, attending church events & meetings- whatever. Members call their house at all hours of the day and night, and my stepdad has never said "well the church isn't paying me a fulltime salary so it's officially afterhours now & you're SOL". So, no, I am not at all a believer in the whole vow of poverty thing for people in the ministry.

What I took issue to is the whole "dollars for Jesus" way the ATM service seemed to be presented in the article. But after a fourth reading of the article, I believe that impression is more from the way the piece was presented than anything the Bakers actually said. A good reminder for me that it never hurts to take a closer look, even when you think you already "get it".

Edit: By the way, an automatic donation kiosk qualifies as "extravagant" to me. There is NO reason they need to collect money from people the minute they walk in; if they forget to bring cash, they can write a check or mail one from home. Hell, I'm surprised a lot of churches don't have paypal, or weekly or monthly donations set up online, much like...

For many churchgoers, giving is an important part of the whole ritual. A lot of people give their tithes and "regular" offering in non-cash forms, but still like to put $5 or $20 cash in the "benevolent", "goodwill", or whatever offering. And I can see how stopping by the offering kiosk on the way into the sanctuary could become a part of some people's weekly giving ritual. Doing it that way could give a stronger sense of the whole experience than just making the donation from home. If it helps that person feel more connected to their spiritual community, who am I to say they shouldn't do it that way?

Were not a bunch of mindless sheep.

And our Pastor is not a power mongeror with a jesus complex.

All of us, Pastor included, are simply people, trying to keep it real, keep it moving, keep it relevent, and we try to honor God along the way. Remember that ultimately the church is the extension of the church goers - therefore whatever the churchgoers feel is appropriate in terms of how tithing is faccilitated is up to them.

They CAN change thigns by the way Brass. Its a misconception to think that these decisions are implimented by Pastors. 99% of the time, you have chruch boards and Eldor boards who facilitate this process, including most of the administrative issues. And these boards are voted on, and are subject to limited terms. There is no man of The Lawd in that process.

Yes, alot of churches do it wrong.

but ALOT of churches do it right....I'd venture to say most.

couldn't have said it better... I will just add that those points are usually considered the main difference between a church and a cult- a cult has one person (almost always a charismatic figure) calling all the shots and claiming divine sanction. A church functions as a community, and the pastor is a leader in the sense of "first among equals" and setting an example. In most denominations there is also some degree of oversight by some kind of regional or national body. In a cult, the head dude pockets all the loot, period. In a church, there is a group specifically responsible for finances (usually the trustee board in Black churches), and that group is accountable to the members in general. The pastor cannot just walk in the office after the service & go "yo hand me that heaviest plate, the note on my summer cottage is due", nor does he set his own salary.

The ones that do wrong get so much attention BECAUSE they're doing wrong. In the same way, the charismatic movement gets so much attention because they're such godawful loudmouths not because their views represent those of most true people of faith. So it simply isn't accurate or fair to equate all organized religion with the charismatics & their ilk, which is how I'm reading most of the anti-religion statements here.

and... finally... I wasn't gonna touch this one but what the hell: Spirituality or "self-transcendence" is indeed considered one of the basic human needs... it is on the "Being" level of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, which is widely accepted in the human sciences and education. Of course that still only qualifies it as arguable, not set in stone... but a whole lot of smart folks who've spent their lives delving into what makes people tick are on that side of the argument.

[n0Mad]

I will just add that those points are usually considered the main difference between a church and a cult- a cult has one person (almost always a charismatic figure) calling all the shots and claiming divine sanction. A church functions as a community, and the pastor is a leader in the sense of "first among equals" and setting an example.

I was talking with a guy at church today about another difference I noticed between religions and cults.

With a religion, you can walk up to any member (not even a leader, but any member) and say, "I would like to learn more about your beliefs." The member would say, "Well, here are plenty of books you can read to provide insight, I can tell you all I know, invite you to a service, introduce you to some people far more knowledgable than I, and if you have any questions here are plenty of phone numbers and websites to visit."

But let's say you walked up to somebody to ask them about their beliefs and they said, "If you're not a member I can't tell you." So then you join but you're only told a little bit of information at a time until you work your way up the ranks and can earn more enlightenment about the beliefs. Now that's a cult. Can anyone say Scientology?

[BrassFusion]

I was talking with a guy at church today about another difference I noticed between religions and cults.

With a religion, you can walk up to any member (not even a leader, but any member) and say, "I would like to learn more about your beliefs." The member would say, "Well, here are plenty of books you can read to provide insight, I can tell you all I know, invite you to a service, introduce you to some people far more knowledgable than I, and if you have any questions here are plenty of phone numbers and websites to visit."

But let's say you walked up to somebody to ask them about their beliefs and they said, "If you're not a member I can't tell you." So then you join but you're only told a little bit of information at a time until you work your way up the ranks and can earn more enlightenment about the beliefs. Now that's a cult. Can anyone say Scientology?

Some major religions are a little secretive too, by my understanding.

That is, if you consider mormonism (for example) to be a major religion and not a cult. There's always them pesky gray areas.

[pomba gira]

Some major religions are a little secretive too, by my understanding.

That is, if you consider mormonism (for example) to be a major religion and not a cult. There's always them pesky gray areas.

I'm sure many would disagree, but my personal opinion is that size and overt organizational structure do not exempt the LDS from cult status. The way some of the individual congregations are run is especially cult-like- for example those small towns where church elders own EVERYTHING and any young men who aren't 110% sheeplike are basically booted out of town to fend for themselves (thus making more nubile females available to the aforementioned polygamous elders)

[kellygrrrrrl]

Had it not been for our local church....our family would have spend the winters in the cold, had no christmas, no thanksgiving, no electricity at some points, had no clothes to fit into......

Unselfish acts of the community.

Unselfish acts of the church.

I support this idea fully.

I see no evil in tithing or even suggesting tithing.

It's up to you. I think they make that pertty clear.

You don't have to if you don't want to.

Do they pull at your heart strings?

[BrassFusion]

I'm sure many would disagree, but my personal opinion is that size and overt organizational structure do not exempt the LDS from cult status. The way some of the individual congregations are run is especially cult-like- for example those small towns where church elders own EVERYTHING and any young men who aren't 110% sheeplike are basically booted out of town to fend for themselves (thus making more nubile females available to the aforementioned polygamous elders)

Well, the polygamists aren't "legitimate" mormons anymore, certainly not LDS.