Why Goth Isn't.

[Shade Everdark]

This happens to be one of wonderful contradictions surrounding goth, and is one people eventually will run up against if they stay in the subculture long enough.

Goth, as far as I've known it as a social phonomenon, has always professed a desire to welcome everyone, as long as they keep their minds open. We at least ostensibly try to be open and welcoming to everyone, since we ourselves are often ostracized and excluded from part or most of society. Big tent, as it were.

On the other hand, goth is often, in practice, a very elitist and exclusionary subculture. Why? For the simple fact that a LOT--and probably most--of us goths out there are insecure or introverted, or both, and we've been burned by "normals" more than once. Thus, when we see someone dressed like he belongs in a hip-hop or Top40 club, our alarm bells go off, because these are the kinds of people that hurt us, or exclude us, or whatever it may be or have been. Many, I'm sure, don't want it to be that way, it's just sort of an instinctive response.

It's a measure of our open-mindedness that we can and do get it past it, quite regularly. About our spaces we retain, then, a liberal, open mind, yet we are protective of it, and skeptical of those outside who would "invade" our spaces until we become confident that they aren't out to cause mischief.

[Paper Hearts]

I've read that things like safety pins and ripped up jeans actually came from people like the Ramones who weren't trying to make a fashion statement, per se, but actually had fucked up clothes that needed to be fused together in places with safety pins, in order to be wearable. Malcolm McLaren was managing the Sex Pistols (then simply called 'Sex') had a studio called Sex, and was sort of into the CBGB scene over in NY, and he took those things from the Ramones and added that to the 'Pistols' wardrobe, in artistic ways. And in the same regard, the American scene eventually lost it's long hair and took on the shitty, irregular hairstyles more common with the English youth. So, at the start of things, it wasn't the case that you couldn't afford to dress punk or goth, it was actually that one couldn't afford to look any other way than that. But clothing designers, stylists, are people too and sometimes they get interested in a type of music and begin to make influences on it, but people don't accept a style unless they can identify with it. And yes, people looking at it think "well what in fuck do we call that? -It's different" and so it gets a name. "Goth" has had several titles, and really wasn't refereed to as such until like the 1980s, and if you know when Siouxsie &/Banshees started playing out, it sort of says something about that. Ian Curtis would have kneed someone in the testicles if they asked him if he was a "goth", in 1976, but likely Ian would have done that anyway, and it's not to say he neither considered himself a part of some movement--and even if he hadn't considered that, he still would have been. Are punks/goths elitist, in a sense? Possibly, but it’s more protectionism, if any word applies, and much of that feeling continues. Someone would have to be daft however to not gather a common fashion about certain people. People have different styles, just like pasta or anything else; it's not really belittling spaghetti to call a linguini, a linguini. One wouldn’t just say “fuck you, I'll have that noodly shit”, when they’re ordering at a restaurant.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Holy crap paper that paragraph is scary, just throw a random blank line in here and there.

And Brass, you , specifically, calm down.

[Paper Hearts]

^Aye, I like paragraphs that you could lift off a page and bludgeon murder with, if you had to.

Unrelated:

Taking certain views, this topic, contained, into consideration, I'm left with a burning curiosity as to why anyone who feels that "goth" is not a legitimate "ism", would so frequent a "Goth" web board. -Why not just join a utopian style, generic music network?

[Draco1958]

A general question to anyone interested in answering it. How would a dress code at CC be elitist when some restaurants have a dress code to get in? Some require a tie. Is that elitist? Or how about shirt and shoes required? Is that elitist against those who prefer to go barefoot? I see nothing wrong with a basic dress code for any establishment. It is their right to do so. What if CC decided no bright colors other than neon types, no ball caps? Is that elitist anymore than a requirement for a tie? Goth is a style and a mindset. Dean Martin doesn't fit the mindset or style as we know of. It seems to me there is a push to make people give a concrete definition of what is and is not Goth. Why worry about it. Each of us will have a differing view. Why not just learn from each and decide what you are comfortable with for a definition? Who said anything about making labels to hurt anyone?? Everything in life ends up with a label. And just because there is no solid definition does not mean someone is being an a**hole. It seems to me IMHO that this line of questions is designed to stir up problems, oh wait, wouldn't that be labeling the questions as troublemakers??? Guess I am being an a**hole towards the questions. Should I apologize to them? Let's grow up. Goth has no solid definition and probably never will because no one can totally agree on it. So what, to say that with no solid definition one cannot describe their opinion of Goth is ridiculous. I know someone I consider hardcore christian. Does that mean I am being an a**hole towards him? NO, it means from my experience that is how he is acting, nothing more. When arguing over labels, be sure one is not pushing assumed labels on others. It defeats the argument.

[kellygrrrrrl]

If they should enforce a Dress Code at the CC, how it would it go?

You must wear all black to enter

Fetish wear required

You must dress goth to enter this club

Just wondering.

[Homicidalheathen]

Conforming to 'goth' is still, conforming.

And if goth is a non conformist movement.......does that mean.....we should all just go nakey???? :peanutbutterjellytime

[HipsterDufus]

I really liked the point that Shade made.

But to the original question, I don't really understand what difference it makes. If you're comfortable being yourself, then you can say "Fuck off!" to all of the people who say that clothing/music/whatever you like isn't goth. I don't really understand why it's an issue. People are always going to be jerks, goth or not. It's just a matter of sorting the wheat from the chaff (a biblical reference from me? the sky is falling!)

[Fierce Critter]

Interesting additions to this discussion.

A few scattered additions of my own:

I was talking with Jon about this last night. He said one of the most brilliant things I've ever heard about this sort of subject.

"True conformists live in the grey areas".

I think that deserves a thread of it's own, and I just might start it someday. :D

But in relation to this thread, I don't think true noncomformists really give a rat's ass about much of anything where identification of themselves is concerned. They simply "are". They don't dress a certain way to elicit a reaction of any kind. They don't dress goth and go to Big Boy so that people will react with shock - they just go to Big Boy and feel like dressing Goth that day, and people's reactions aren't a consideration for choosing to do so. They don't decide they're going to wear sweats and brown cowboy boots into a goth club so that they can be viewed as the actual non-conformists there. Etc.

They simply do what works for them at a given time, without concern for what others are thinking. But I don't necessarily think that to be goth, you need to be a non-conformist, so it's really two different discussions.

And to directly respond to certain things posted since I went offline yesterday:

I heartily agree with Troy on the "Goth is an adjective" thing. That kinda accurately sums up my point that Goth is really not hardcore defineable. it's a concept, just as "chair" is a concept. Chairs can have 4 legs - and three, and even one, depending on how they're built. There is no one set definition for a chair, but you know one when you see it. Same thing with things "goth".

On the subject of "Critter's preferred dress code at CC", I've said it before, I'll repeat. I'm not talking anything particularly obnoxious or costly to adhere to. Now, I'm not really crazy about cliche's, but to ultra-simply things, the word "black" would enter the picture. Bare minimum, it'd be something like, "black color scheme of some kind, such as black pants with regular top, or regular jeans with black top." That's it. Just enough to ensure that if a person is entering the club, they're showing they care enough about the general vibe of the place to adhere to bare-minimum requirements.

Some kind of, "we'll know it when we see it" policy would also be included. If you show up in black jeans and a black shirt that says "fags need to die" and a pair of brown cowboy boots, you're not getting in. But if you're dressed in an all-white gauzy fairy dress with a flower headdress, you're in.

It could get really messy. Like no ball caps, flannels, white sneakers, khakis, sweats, flowered sundresses, etc. It could get restrictive like, "fetish wear, all black, black with only red or purple or white, blah blah blah". I'm not interested in anything THAT restrictive.

This is, however, talking really majorly fairy-tale. This is if I ran City Club. Current owners don't give a rat's ass what you wear, so long as you pay to get in and pay to drink. Frankly, I don't think attendance would drop off at all significantly.

One wouldn’t just say “fuck you, I'll have that noodly shit”, when they’re ordering at a restaurant.

Fuck that. I'm using that next time I go to Olive Garden. :D

[Rayne]

Info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=goth

http://www.sfgoth.com/primer/

http://www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm

And just for fun ...

http://www.gothornot.com/

... It's all a matter of opinion.

[Onyx]

But in relation to this thread, I don't think true noncomformists really give a rat's ass about much of anything where identification of themselves is concerned. They simply "are".

Yep.

Some kind of, "we'll know it when we see it" policy would also be included. If you show up in black jeans and a black shirt that says "fags need to die" and a pair of brown cowboy boots, you're not getting in. But if you're dressed in an all-white gauzy fairy dress with a flower headdress, you're in.

I've been to a couple of clubs in Canada that do that. I really doubt CityClub would ever be doing it, but I can see some advantages if they did.

[Onyx]

ah -- I just remembered. I've been to a couple of fetish shows at Labyrinth where guys showed up in jeans and a T shirt and were made to take off their shirts and wear saran wrap or were refused entry.

Didn't seem to cause a riot or anything.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I've been "in the goth scene" since the early 80s. When they were refered to more often as "Death Rockers" than Goths. It wasn't a political movement as some people like to claim.... One Ramone brother was a liberal and the other a hard core conservative. Whats his name from Joy Division was a nother hard core conservative. it sure wasn't a movement to promote the gay life style as one now gone member of this board tried to claim... it was just a bunch of punks that dressed in dark clothing and talked about the futility of life. They listened to rather depressing music and made fun of everyone that wasn't exactly like they were. Eliteists? hell yeah. The open minded stuff came much later. Early "goths" were more likely to stomp on a hippys head than huge a tree. It's a sub-culture that has transformed over the years. Only on near surface level though. The same personality types are still drawn to it... the same styles of cloths are still worn... the music is.. well... I miss the days that I could listen to a "goth" band and it didn't sound just like every other goth band.

I should mention that it wasn't a "non-conformist" movement.. or any other kind of movement. It's just people, being themselves and not really giving a fuck what other people think of them. Mostly, we sat around bitching about the world and making fun of everyone else until they either cried or beat us up.

A big thing over the years seems to be that anyone who claims to be a goth is most likely not and anyone that denys it most likely is.

[Shade Everdark]

I guess that makes me not a goth.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Dress Code At CC: They could just make a short list of what is >not

Im not really "For" a dress code but im not particularly against it either. People go there for (partly) the atmosphere of a "goth club" If there is half a club full of kids with bluejean fatpants and them golf sunvisior things kinda kills the vibe.

Like "no white tennis shoes,no baseball caps,no white t-shirts, no blue jeans"' maybe a few other things. People wouldnt leave the place in droves over it, its already pretty crowded.

Gaf being pretty well versed in "goth music" from the early 80s till now they all "sound the same" or all "sound different" depending on how closely you listen. The new-wave sound , can easilly be viewed as "all the same" same for the more punk sounding stuff, same for industiral same for everything. Its a question of familairity. you dont notice the differences until you put more of a bright light on a thing.

All skinny puppy "sounds the same" to some people its all 'just noise".

All 50s rock & roll "sounded the same" to the WWII generation. All 40s lounge music sounds the same to the greasers... etc.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Conforming to 'goth' is still, conforming.

And if goth is a non conformist movement.......does that mean.....we should all just go nakey???? :peanutbutterjellytime

Conformity is always relative to some reference point. Depending on perspective , everything conforms to some sort of "normal" idea/concept. Even if it is abnormal from one given viewpoint.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

" When wearing my khakis to City Club, I am the nonconformist, and if you don't like it, you can have a party at home and enforce your own dress code.

But khakis are a color...not pants...remember?

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

For the above definition, I was using the general "you." And heck, Cam, you were just talking about excluding people from City Club based on rules of fashion. That would be grade-A assholish. I don't think I need to explain why.

And before now, I'd never heard the term "gothish." I assume it has no more of a definition than the word "goth." Henceforth, I shall refer to myself neither as goth, non-goth, or anti-goth, but... "gothish." And I shall be the authority on all things "gothish." Thank you.

Ok...fierce was referring to the conversation in the other thread about MY look and how I was describing it (correct me fierce if I'm wrong)when she uses the term "gothish"...that's how I was describing my look...she wasn't using the word for herself but quoting me...

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

It might be a oldschool rock & roll song (The Monster Mash) but its "gothic" , that doesn't mean its ONLY gothic.

I like "dark" literature in that sense i'm "gothic" but that doesn't mean that i'm ONLY gothic.

I like "goth" music, but that doesn't mean that i'm "A Goth" nessisarly. (although i have no problem with being called that)

I like star trek (you didn't read that shssh) but that doesn't mean that i'm "only" a trekkie.

When i say that DGN is a "gothic / industrial community" i mean that people here tend to like things that are "gothic" and/or "industrial" but thats not the sum total of what it or they are about.

Troy pretty much hit the nail on the head...Goth is a term to help describe things...completly opinion oriented...everyone has their own opinions on what "goth" is...

You can't tell someone who's color blind that something is blue...because to him that blue is a shade of grey...

You can't tell someone what "goth" or "gothic" is...everyone has their levels and expectations of "goth"...

To my freind, my description of "goth" is her description of a "new york club kid" and "goth" to her means a medievel style of dress...

What I call "khakis", Joni calls "beige pants".*cough cough ahem*

Like I can't tell you that Napoleon Dynamite was funny and DEMAND you think the same...you may or may not think that movie was funny...it's your opinion...not mine...

So to determine what "goth" is and everyone on this board agree to it is completly pointless and irrelovant...IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN...

I have my opinion of what "goth" is...and you have yours...case closed...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Troy... are you calling me old? You remember that your in the same age bracket?

and Shade... your a goth. You fit the "mopey goth" cliche perfectly. I'm not even sure how you can type with your hand stapled to your forehead.

[phee]

Troy... are you calling me old? You remember that your in the same age bracket?

and Shade... your a goth. You fit the "mopey goth" cliche perfectly. I'm not even sure how you can type with your hand stapled to your forehead.

I got velcrow on mine...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Troy... are you calling me old? You remember that your in the same age bracket?

Hah no. Guys even younger than us have this same sort of idea, just about different music. "all that old shit all sounds the same"

[Shade Everdark]

Troy... are you calling me old? You remember that your in the same age bracket?

and Shade... your a goth. You fit the "mopey goth" cliche perfectly. I'm not even sure how you can type with your hand stapled to your forehead.

Oh, it's easy. I learned how from typing while masturbating.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Ha!

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Oh, it's easy. I learned how from typing while masturbating.

I knew it...I KNEW IT!!...that's why my hits on my myspace keep sky rocketing while you're logged into dgn...you sick bastard...