Religion Question

[Rayne]

*This is not meant to disrespect anyone who may or may not practice any religion.*

I do not practice religion. I never have really. My mother is Southern Baptist and my father is Presbetryian (sp?). Instead of fighting over what religion to raise my brother and I, they chose to let us research and decide ourselves when we got old enough and not push anything on us. They never did.

I have a 7 year old daughter. I am not religious. My ex husband is not religious either. Pretty much the same situation as me growing up. However, he married an EXTREMELY religious person. She goes to church all the time. Well, last month we went to court and my ex husband ran away and joined the Army ... so long story short I got temporary full custody of her until my ex resurfaces and can defend himself. In this, his wife got alternating weekend visitation.

Okay, now another side ... I have three other children. I was raised the way I was, and their father was raised Catholic. He no longer follows the Catholic religion, except for in front of his family to avoid conflict. He and I agree that we will not push our children one way or another and when they get old enough, let them look into whatever and decide.

So ... all the sudden my 7 year old busts out singing some song "let me tell you the story of Jesus".

I believe no one is wrong in their religion, what they believe in is right for them, however, I also don't believe that they should push it on others, especially children who are not theirs. In court the stepmom tried to argue that she should have my ex's parenting time. The judge clearly stated "You are not her mother, she is." (pointing to me) "I don't see another parent here for this child."

Not only is she pushing this on my daughter, but now my daughter is going to be pushing this on my other three kids and I'll have to fight it out with their father. Not to mention, going against what we decided ...

What would you do?

[Msterbeau]

*This is not meant to disrespect anyone who may or may not practice any religion.*

I do not practice religion. I never have really. My mother is Southern Baptist and my father is Presbetryian (sp?). Instead of fighting over what religion to raise my brother and I, they chose to let us research and decide ourselves when we got old enough and not push anything on us. They never did.

I have a 7 year old daughter. I am not religious. My ex husband is not religious either. Pretty much the same situation as me growing up. However, he married an EXTREMELY religious person. She goes to church all the time. Well, last month we went to court and my ex husband ran away and joined the Army ... so long story short I got temporary full custody of her until my ex resurfaces and can defend himself. In this, his wife got alternating weekend visitation.

Okay, now another side ... I have three other children. I was raised the way I was, and their father was raised Catholic. He no longer follows the Catholic religion, except for in front of his family to avoid conflict. He and I agree that we will not push our children one way or another and when they get old enough, let them look into whatever and decide.

So ... all the sudden my 7 year old busts out singing some song "let me tell you the story of Jesus".

I believe no one is wrong in their religion, what they believe in is right for them, however, I also don't believe that they should push it on others, especially children who are not theirs. In court the stepmom tried to argue that she should have my ex's parenting time. The judge clearly stated "You are not her mother, she is." (pointing to me) "I don't see another parent here for this child."

Not only is she pushing this on my daughter, but now my daughter is going to be pushing this on my other three kids and I'll have to fight it out with their father. Not to mention, going against what we decided ...

What would you do?

Talk to the step-bitch and ask her to cease. If she won't, try and get some sort of court order forbidding her to talk about religion. Assuming you can do such a thing.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Start teaching them about different religions as they get old enough to understand the concepts. (At younger ages, there are certain, universal concepts that apply to almost every religion that you can get into.)

No wonder the world is such a mess sometimes... some people have no respect for others and likely never will.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I am confused as to why the woman got visitation while the father is not present. I can only guesse what the judge was thinking.. and thats structure/schedual. I could be wrong.

I'm also confused on the "pushing" thing. How is her knowing a hyme "pushing" it on her siblings? I thought you were not apposed to exposing your kids to different religions? So, she's been exposed to some form of Christianity. Expose her to other religions. Balance it so to speak. Would you be as deeply offened if she had expressed a wish to cleanse herself of Karma? Or found her meditating in front of some candles and incense? no wait.. bad example.. 7 year old should not play with fire.... another point... is it really the religion? or is it some other woman making decision about your child? Thats what would offend me the most... as a parent.

[BrassFusion]

that is one heck of a sticky situation, but i agree with marc/k in some aspects... prolly your best bet is to inform your daughter MORE instead of making an effort to have her less informed.

talk with her about jesus, seriously. tell her what you know, what you think you know, what other people think they know. tell her about moses and how some people think HE was the last legitimate prophet. tell her about mohammed, if you want. heck, if you get her on a weekend, maybe even take her to a religious service you don't really believe in and make it clear that though you don't believe it, the people who practice it are still respectable and it's a valid part of their life even if they're wrong. maybe she'll come to see christianity as something that should be taken with a grain of salt as well- or maybe she'll start to practice it, but on her own terms, armed with knowledge from her objective mother.

[Rayne]

I am confused as to why the woman got visitation while the father is not present. I can only guesse what the judge was thinking.. and thats structure/schedual. I could be wrong.

The judge stated that it was for the benefit of the stepmom's other two children, ages 4 and 2 that my daughter had lived with the past 6 months while my ex had temporary custody of her. I still don't completely understand it since when they yanked custody from me I didn't get to see her at all for ... 2 1/2 months then was finally given 6 hours a week. This court thing has been so complex.

I'm also confused on the "pushing" thing. How is her knowing a hyme "pushing" it on her siblings? I thought you were not apposed to exposing your kids to different religions? So, she's been exposed to some form of Christianity. Expose her to other religions. Balance it so to speak. Would you be as deeply offened if she had expressed a wish to cleanse herself of Karma? Or found her meditating in front of some candles and incense? no wait.. bad example.. 7 year old should not play with fire.... another point... is it really the religion? or is it some other woman making decision about your child? Thats what would offend me the most... as a parent.

Exposing as a whole, no, I have no problem with that. With me standing there saying "This is NOT what you HAVE to believe in, but this is one." This appears to be a whole lot of one-sided exposure though. Your probably right, probably more the someone else making decisions about my child, but this whole thing is really bothering me. She was in the backseat of the van yesterday trying to teach Ashley (my 6 year old) that Jesus died for our sins. When my 6 year old said "I don't have to believe in that, it's up to me." My 7 year old said "No you have to, they said so, or your going to go to hell." (That's what I mean by "pushing" it on her siblings).

[Rayne]

that is one heck of a sticky situation, but i agree with marc/k in some aspects... prolly your best bet is to inform your daughter MORE instead of making an effort to have her less informed.

Thank you Erin. Probably a good idea.

or maybe she'll start to practice it, but on her own terms, armed with knowledge from her objective mother.

That I would have no issue with at all. That is my goal.

[maeve]

We’ve had a similar type problem with our kids and their grandmother. Although we love and respect the children’s grandmother it can at times become annoying when they come back from a visit and begin telling us how wonderful Christianity is.

I personally am a Pagan who comes from an Evangelical Christian background. My other half is an Atheist. We have attempted not to influence our children in their religious beliefs whatever they may be and yet, despite our wishes, they have been taught by others. Out of love and respect for the children’s grandmother we have not forbidden them to see her or any such thing, but we have spoken to the children and explained things as such:

We told them that this is what your grandmother believes to be true. There are many beliefs in the world but there is no proof that any of them are the “right” one. It is a matter of choice. We then explained our take on the subject as a means of contrast and told the kids that what their grandmother believes may or may not be the way it is, just as what mom and dad believe, may or may not be the way it is. We also gave examples of as many other faiths as we could and told them that there is no way for any person on the face of the earth to prove what they believe and each person should be free to choose what works best for themselves.

Since then they have experimented with various “beliefs” for a while they asked if they could say prayers before bed and I allowed it. The interest however soon died out and now the general consensus is that god does not exist. I guess we’ll have to wait and see how long this conception holds out.

On a side note, and rather funny, I thought:

When our kids were on this prayer kick, our son who is 8 now, probably 6 then, gets down on his knees one night, clasps his hands together, closes his eyes and with the most earnest and well meaning innocence of heart begins to pray, he said, “Dear God, please kill Jesus.”

Well of course you could imagine, I was very taken aback, and I asked him why he would ask God to do that. His reply was, “Well, when Jesus dies we can all go live in heaven with him.” So, there you have it, out of the mouths of babes.

[Steven]

tough sitch.

your daughter is 7????

if she's embraced this teaching (which is possible) then you need to work with her - but there is nothign wrong with your setting up some basic behavioural groundrules.

but be careful - because despite your best intentions - you want to protect what she holds dear. For example Brass' suggestion....to me, that sounds a bit too deep for a 7 year old to process. Offereing her other modes ofo religeous expression may be healthy - but your going to have to be cautious in not introducing too much confusion into her world. A 7 year old wil not be able to process major and minor prophets and Old Testmant ideals in any true depth. But ask questions. Find out how deep her faith runs, and why she attatches to it. Allow her to hold onto that which she sees value in or identifies with. Pick your moments carefully in regard to introducing other schools of thought - or what you may feel you know about Jesus - timing is everything - and this too is a good lesson for her to experience.

Also, I dont neccesarily think that one child's expression of faith (bear in mind were talkign about a 7 year old here) is really going to prove to be oppressive if shared or expressed among her peers - unless of course you witness some form of discomfort. Is the discomfort your won - or is it the discomfort of the other children your talkign about? If you do see discomfort, - then you need to set groundrules that allows her to feel secure in what she beleives, but also allows for a difference of opinion - this is a healthy approach to teach any child.

Question: (just curious) what will you do if yoru other kids want to explore Child of Question's faith?

[Homicidalheathen]

I agree with Marc. I exposed my kids to EVERY religeon......I just said I wanted them to be spiritual.....and understand there are many different paths....

I am sure your kid will turn out ok and that by the time they are 18 they will have made up their own minds.....ya know?

[Rayne]

tough sitch.

your daughter is 7????

if she's embraced this teaching (which is possible) then you need to work with her - but there is nothign wrong with your setting up some basic behavioural groundrules.

Yes, she is 7. She is not your average 7 year old though ... thinks and processes more on the level of a 10 - 12 year old (no joke). She is EXTREMELY intelligent with severe ADHD.

but be careful - because despite your best intentions - you want to protect what she holds dear. For example Brass' suggestion....to me, that sounds a bit too deep for a 7 year old to process. Offereing her other modes ofo religeous expression may be healthy - but your going to have to be cautious in not introducing too much confusion into her world. A 7 year old wil not be able to process major and minor prophets and Old Testmant ideals in any true depth. But ask questions. Find out how deep her faith runs, and why she attatches to it. Allow her to hold onto that which she sees value in or identifies with. Pick your moments carefully in regard to introducing other schools of thought - or what you may feel you know about Jesus - timing is everything - and this too is a good lesson for her to experience.

This little girl has been through an awful lot in her life till now. I don't think this is a decision that she made. In fact I know it isn't. She was pretty much told over there that this is the way it is and she has no choice. As far as doing it, nothing she has said makes me believe she doesn't want to. The only concern I have here is the way it is being "pushed" onto her. Telling her this is IT and everyone who believes otherwise are horrible people and are going to hell, etc ... is not what I wanted to instill in my children.

Also, I dont neccesarily think that one child's expression of faith (bear in mind were talkign about a 7 year old here) is really going to prove to be oppressive if shared or expressed among her peers - unless of course you witness some form of discomfort. Is the discomfort your won - or is it the discomfort of the other children your talkign about? If you do see discomfort, - then you need to set groundrules that allows her to feel secure in what she beleives, but also allows for a difference of opinion - this is a healthy approach to teach any child.

Both. I never educated myself on any of this. It was my own choice not to. As far as my younger daughter, it scared her to hear what her sister said to her. I'm not doubting that it confused her as well because that's not what her father and I have been teaching her.

Question: (just curious) what will you do if yoru other kids want to explore Child of Question's faith?

I have no problem with it. As long as I (or another responsible adult) is there to tell them, this is one of MANY religions. This one may not be the right one for you. This is not your only option.

[Rayne]

We’ve had a similar type problem with our kids and their grandmother. Although we love and respect the children’s grandmother it can at times become annoying when they come back from a visit and begin telling us how wonderful Christianity is.

I personally am a Pagan who comes from an Evangelical Christian background. My other half is an Atheist. We have attempted not to influence our children in their religious beliefs whatever they may be and yet, despite our wishes, they have been taught by others. Out of love and respect for the children’s grandmother we have not forbidden them to see her or any such thing, but we have spoken to the children and explained things as such:

We told them that this is what your grandmother believes to be true. There are many beliefs in the world but there is no proof that any of them are the “right” one. It is a matter of choice. We then explained our take on the subject as a means of contrast and told the kids that what their grandmother believes may or may not be the way it is, just as what mom and dad believe, may or may not be the way it is. We also gave examples of as many other faiths as we could and told them that there is no way for any person on the face of the earth to prove what they believe and each person should be free to choose what works best for themselves.

Since then they have experimented with various “beliefs” for a while they asked if they could say prayers before bed and I allowed it. The interest however soon died out and now the general consensus is that god does not exist. I guess we’ll have to wait and see how long this conception holds out.

On a side note, and rather funny, I thought:

When our kids were on this prayer kick, our son who is 8 now, probably 6 then, gets down on his knees one night, clasps his hands together, closes his eyes and with the most earnest and well meaning innocence of heart begins to pray, he said, “Dear God, please kill Jesus.”

Well of course you could imagine, I was very taken aback, and I asked him why he would ask God to do that. His reply was, “Well, when Jesus dies we can all go live in heaven with him.” So, there you have it, out of the mouths of babes.

Thank you. Glad to hear I am not the only one.

[kellygrrrrrl]

Tough one here Hunny.

Not sure, I don't have kids to know how to handle it, but here goes.

Allow her to do her soul searching.

I think we all do at some point.

But you need to tell her that this is a very "personal" thing, and there is a lot of research and concideration to do.

And she needs to let her siblings go about it whatever way they choose to do as she did.

I think learning the teachings of Christ can establish good morals and a good conscience, but should be done as a family if it is to be done. This way everybody is learning the same information, and thus resolves the issue of conflicting information.

If she is on her own, meaning, you are not willing to do it as a family, do not forbid her to learn.....

She'll come to her own conclusions.....perhaps.

I can remember when I was about 7, my mother had a girlfriend who was devout...whatever she was??

she started teaching us stuff behind my Moms back.

I appreciated it. My mom Eventually stopped talking to her over it. Never in our lives did we have so much structure....I missed it and asked my mom to let us go to caddicism (sp)

I wished we had been more Spiritually oriented. I think we might have grown up with more structure in our lives.

But thats me.

When we got into highschool, and moved in with dad, we started doing Bible studies.

It was interesting and quite honestly, it made me develope a conscience.

That honestly was the 1st time in me and my brothers lives did we actually have structure. And that was really important I think in helping us deal with the misfortune we had delt with as children....(You mentioned she has been through a lot)

I think it made me a better person today.

I still struggle within about the whole subject/concept, but thats a personal thing. And it is for everyone.

[phee]

I think the problem is in the "You better or else you are going to Hell" thing she is getting from the step parent... not the religion itself

[kellygrrrrrl]

Yeah, thats kind of overstepping boundries....for a "STEP-Mother" for crying out loud. Really, who does she think she is?

Thats something the family should learn or not learn together.

More so to get a basic and agreeable understanding.

Ask her what she thinks hell is.

Man, what a hard concept to teach a 7 year old....really.

She will learn these things whether you want her to or not.

Someone will awlays spew forth thier knowledge.

The concept of Hell, be delicate and tactful.

A good learning expirience none the less though.

She should know there is consequence for things that are done or not done throughout life.

Only GOD knows what the consequences are.

What a big step for a little girl.

really.

[pharoh]

LoL!

:devil Stepmother :devil

muah hahahaha

Ok cmon we were all thinking it :innocent

[Rayne]

:laughing

You know I can't do that guys.

[Rayne]

Yeah, thats kind of overstepping boundries....for a "STEP-Mother" for crying out loud. Really, who does she think she is?

Thats something the family should learn or not learn together.

More so to get a basic and agreeable understanding.

Ask her what she thinks hell is.

Man, what a hard concept to teach a 7 year old....really.

She will learn these things whether you want her to or not.

Someone will awlays spew forth thier knowledge.

The concept of Hell, be delicate and tactful.

A good learning expirience none the less though.

She should know there is consequence for things that are done or not done throughout life.

Only GOD knows what the consequences are.

What a big step for a little girl.

really.

Exactly my point. However, I think the stepmom HONESTLY believes this is the only way and her stepdaughter won't be "saved" unless she follows it too ... know what I mean? And it seems my daughter has been convinced, scared or in some other way told that this is the ONLY way.

[kellygrrrrrl]

I found this, if it is of any interest to you.

WHAT image does the word "hell" conjure up in your mind? Do you see hell as a literal place of fire and brimstone, of unending torment and anguish? Or is hell perhaps a symbolic description of a condition, a state?

For centuries, a fiery hell of excruciating torments has been envisioned by religious leaders of Christendom as the certain destiny for sinners. This idea is still popular among many other religious groups. "Christianity may have made hell a household word," says U.S.News & World Report, "but it doesn't hold a monopoly on the doctrine. The threat of painful retribution in the afterlife has counterparts in nearly every major world religion and in some minor ones as well." Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jains, and Taoists believe in a hell of one sort or another.

Hell, though, has acquired another image in modern thinking. "While the traditional infernal imagery still attracts a following," states the aforementioned magazine, "modern visions of eternal perdition as a particularly unpleasant solitary confinement are beginning to emerge, suggesting that hell may not be so hot after all."

The Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica observed: "It is misleading . . . to think that God, by means of demons, inflicts fearful torments on the damned like that of fire." It added: "Hell exists, not as a place but as a state, a way of being of the person who suffers the pain of the deprivation of God." Pope John Paul II said in 1999: "Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." As to the images of hell as a fiery place, he said: "They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God." Had the pope described hell in terms of "flames and a red-suited devil with a pitchfork," church historian Martin Marty said, "people wouldn't take it seriously."

Similar changes are taking place in other denominations. A report by the doctrine commission of the Church of England said: "Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolutely that the only end is total non-being."

The catechism of the United States Episcopal Church defines hell as "eternal death in our rejection of God." A growing number of people, says U.S.News & World Report, are promoting the idea that "the end of the wicked is destruction, not eternal suffering. . . . [They] contend that those who ultimately reject God will simply be put out of existence in the 'consuming fire' of hell."

Although the modern-day trend is to get away from the fire and brimstone mentality, many continue to adhere to the belief that hell is a literal place of torment. "Scripture clearly speaks of hell as a physical place of fiery torment," says Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, U.S.A. And the report The Nature of Hell, prepared by the Evangelical Alliance Commission, states: "Hell is a conscious experience of rejection and torment." It adds: "There are degrees of punishment and suffering in hell related to the severity of sins committed on earth."

Again, is hell a fiery place of eternal torment or of annihilation? Or is it simply a state of separation from God?

[Steven]

Tough one here Hunny.

Not sure, I don't have kids to know how to handle it, but here goes.

Allow her to do her soul searching.

I think we all do at some point.

But you need to tell her that this is a very "personal" thing, and there is a lot of research and concideration to do.

And she needs to let her siblings go about it whatever way they choose to do as she did.

I think learning the teachings of Christ can establish good morals and a good conscience, but should be done as a family if it is to be done. This way everybody is learning the same information, and thus resolves the issue of conflicting information.

If she is on her own, meaning, you are not willing to do it as a family, do not forbid her to learn.....

She'll come to her own conclusions.....perhaps.

I can remember when I was about 7, my mother had a girlfriend who was devout...whatever she was??

she started teaching us stuff behind my Moms back.

I appreciated it. My mom Eventually stopped talking to her over it. Never in our lives did we have so much structure....I missed it and asked my mom to let us go to caddicism (sp)

I wished we had been more Spiritually oriented. I think we might have grown up with more structure in our lives.

But thats me.

When we got into highschool, and moved in with dad, we started doing Bible studies.

It was interesting and quite honestly, it made me develope a conscience.

That honestly was the 1st time in me and my brothers lives did we actually have structure. And that was really important I think in helping us deal with the misfortune we had delt with as children....(You mentioned she has been through a lot)

I think it made me a better person today.

I still struggle within about the whole subject/concept, but thats a personal thing. And it is for everyone.

I love her......

[Steven]

I think the problem is in the "You better or else you are going to Hell" thing she is getting from the step parent... not the religion itself

I agree completely

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Try not to take too much stock in anything we say here. We cant possibly know all the ins and outs of your situation and it would be foolish for any of us to think we do. Hopefully it will all be viewed as well meaning, compassionate (but something far less than well informed) advice.

At this age, and the general short attention span of youngsters this particular incident isnt that big of a deal. You can change a kids mind about as often as you change lightbulbs if you want to.

But longer term it could be difficult.

If for instance i knew that my son walking off a cliff was going to kill him, and i was sure of it, i'd "push" him to not walk off the cliff about as hard as i could. If somone tried to talk me out of it, i'd basicly tell them to go jump and keep on trying to get him to not walk off the cliff.

Many people take their faith this seriously and it is not just a simple matter of "doing what they want" or view it as picking the blue team or the red team like some of us might. They really feel its a serious, urgent, life and death matter.

I think in this situation it might be helpful to know what the stepmothers stance is. I mean is she really going to IGNORE your wishes for your daughter to not be exposed to christianity until she is "of age" lets say? Maybe the stepmom does respect parental boundries.

I know the "christians" in my family view a parents right to govern their kids how they want pretty seriously. If there is ever a disagreement about how a child in my family should be handled (lets say if one is sleeping over or some such) If the actual parent disagrees with whatever it is, thats pretty much it, end of discussion.