Goodbye Gun

[Dubh Aingeal]

Wired has a story on the certification of the Active Denial System for use in Iraq. The ADS is a millimeter-wave weapon that uses a reportedly non-lethal energy beam to inflict short-term pain on its targets, encouraging them to leave an area. Experimenters call this the 'Goodbye effect.' I can see using this in a wartime situation, but how long before we see these things mounted to the top of S.W.A.T. vans for domestic crowd control? And, is that a bad idea?

From the article:

The ADS shoots a beam of millimeters waves, which are longer in wavelength than x-rays but shorter than microwaves — 94 GHz (= 3 mm wavelength) compared to 2.45 GHz (= 12 cm wavelength) in a standard microwave oven... while subjects may feel like they have sustained serious burns, the documents claim effects are not long-lasting. At most, 'some volunteers who tolerate the heat may experience prolonged redness or even small blisters'... There has been no independent checking of the military's claims.

[Zenji]

It seems pretty unnerving to me. I mean.... one of these days we could all get one of these devices. Can you just see your new car having a "Goodbye Effect" on someone trying to steal it?

Or perhaps personal "Goodbye Effect" devices carried on the body instead of pepper spray. It seems like this technology could go way too far too fast.

I can easily see it being used in prisons right off the bat. Forget military applications. No more prison riots.

[BrassFusion]

Well, you can't really keep technological advances from taking place, and as we continue to overpopulate the world, this sort of thing will be necessary in daily life.

Like Soylent Green, but y'know, little lasers instead of... bulldozers.

Unless we move a third of the global population to moon colonies to free up some space...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

In the Pop-Sci article that came out last year, maybe the year before, they had a whole list of non-military uses for this system. Crowd Control being one of them. "Short Term Pain".. uh-huh... it makes you feel like you just burst into flames. Running away is the only option you have unless your some kind of super human that can deal with that feeling.

[torn asunder]

question - if one knows that the pain/damage isn't permanent/life-threatening, how will it deter someone who is very set on committing whatever act the police are trying to discourage!?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Because we are human. I dont care how much you know it's not permanent... It feels real... and if you stand there long enough... you will turn red and start to blister... but the most inportant thing is YOUR ON FIRE!!!! at least every part of your body is telling you that it is.

[torn asunder]

Because we are human. I dont care how much you know it's not permanent... It feels real... and if you stand there long enough... you will turn red and start to blister... but the most inportant thing is YOUR ON FIRE!!!! at least every part of your body is telling you that it is.

well, i jsut asked, because i spent saturday night watching people hang themselves from meathooks, so i know that physical pain can be overcome, especially whenit's known that the damage is temporary...

[AntiHero]

Hmmm, cool advance in non-lethal technology. I imagine some like pain, but a burning pain. Much like pepper balls, pepper spray, sting grenades, bean bag rounds, rubber bullets, and the like will not phase a small percentage of people. Then there are those who walk out of a house on pcp and are pretty much immune to anything until their chewed to burger. There's the downside. Oh yeah, throw in a few of these faggy types who think that cutting a loud fart in the same room as a prisoner is an inhumane act.

But on the plus side, non-lethal. Couple more years and we can start setting phasers on stun.

Any other Deminski and Doyle fans thinking of the taser drop right now?

[BrassFusion]

well, i jsut asked, because i spent saturday night watching people hang themselves from meathooks, so i know that physical pain can be overcome, especially whenit's known that the damage is temporary...

It'll work just as well as tasers, probably

[torn asunder]

It'll work just as well as tasers, probably

doubt it - tasers (from what i undestand) overload/scramble the nervous systemso someone can't physically do anything... all this does is cause pain.

[Zenji]

I think what they're not really telling you is that if you do not run away you continue to burn. They're making it seem like the intitial shock and burn will make a normal person run for their lives, then the machine gets turned off. I think it's a bit more dangerous if a person conitnues to stay within the range of the waves. This would cause continued pain, likely shock, then a person could die right there or contonue burning.

Any non-lethal device can kill someone in some way or another.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I wish I could find the Pop-Sci Article I read about these last year... or was it the year before.. anyway...

Yeah... you will run. They turn this thing on and aim it at a crowd. Everyone in the crowd, at least from thier point of view, is on fire. Every inch of your body.. even the parts covered with clothes gives you the sensation that your on fire. Not just a burning itch... you feeling like you just burst into flames. Even your eyes feel like your on fire. Every, and I do mean every, nerve ending on you tells your brain that it's on fire. Natural instinct tells you to run away and scream alot. As soon as your out of range... it stops. If you try to stay int he area, your skin turns red and you will start to blister. Because you are being cooked.. so to speak.. at least the outer few millimeters of you is.

Shock, as Zenji pointed out, is the big risk. The "ray" wont kill you, but if you force yourself to stay in it's affect range while it is on there is a good chance your body will go into shock from the large amount of pain you will be in.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'm waiting for the PEP system. PEP is Pulsed Energy Projectiles. Really cool non-lethal shit.... The weapons fire a laser pulse that generates a burst of expanding plasma when it hits something solid, like a person. The expanding plasma generates an electromagnetic pulse. What does this do to the person? The electromagnetic pulse triggers impulses in the nerve cells... pain impulses. If they get the weapons right... it will cause a person's nerve cells... ALL of them, to put out pain impules... without cellular damage. Are you getting this? It's a stun gun. You get shot with it and every cell of your body registers complete pain for a microsecond.. you fall out.

[maeve]

There was a similar type weapon used for crowd control in New York during an Iraqi war protrest. It was used to disperse the crowd by producing a painful sound to the ear, some type of high frequency thing. I know there were/are people who filed law suits; I don't know what/if came of them.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

maeve, I think you mean the LRAD system. It uses a high frequency sound at about 150 db. It's the only sonic weapon we have at the moment. The troops have been using them in Baghdad since March of 2004. They are a damn good way to disperse a crowd without hurting anyone. Granted, the frequancy is bad for the ears... and at 150db... if you stood there for like an hour and listened to it you might loose a bit of your hearing.

[Zenji]

I guess the only bad thing about a sonic weapon is that it could be countered. You can't really counter being microwaved where you stand.

I'm not sure if I'm all down with non-lethal crowd control devices anyway. Wouldn't it be more of a deterrent just to shoot people and get it over with? Then you know they wn't be protesting against next week.