Troop Surge In Iraq

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

What do you think of this whole mess? I'm confused as hell... the Democrats have been calling for an increase in troops for about 9 months... and few calling for a a complete withdrawl but for the most part they have been hammering for more boots on the ground.. and now that the President has ordered one... they come out against it... Excuse me? WTF? Non-Binding Resalutions? Since when is Congress part of the Chain of Command? Last I checked the only part of the military they have any say in is that they are the only ones that can do a Decleration of War... but then, the reins are in the Presidents hands.. you know Commander in Chief and all.... Constitutionally.. the President is in complete charge of the military...

[HipsterDufus]

I heard a pretty convincing argument from a military historian on NPR that made me believe that it might actually work. I don't know though. I don't have enough military knowledge to really have an educated assessment of the situation. My uneducated guess? Nothing will work in Iraq. That whole country is shot. But hey, here's to hoping that it works.

[Steven]

well then let me join you in the halls of the uneducated and offer that historically this slice of earth has never been stable and that our western worldview cannot possibly engage it.

[Msterbeau]

well then let me join you in the halls of the uneducated and offer that historically this slice of earth has never been stable and that our western worldview cannot possibly engage it.

Ditto.

There's a whole lot of underlying dialogue that needs to happen between the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds to resolve longstanding (And recent) animosities before they're ready to live in relative peace with each other. I don't see this happening anytime soon.

I think we should begin drawing down the number of forces there immediately.

I think those that remain should focus on training the Iraqii forces.

I think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and a few other top advisors should be tossed in jail for this fiasco.

[BrassFusion]

I think those that remain should focus on training the Iraqii forces.

would these be our american soldiers placed in a position of diplomatic relations?

shudder.

part of it's a result of who's willing to enlist in the first place, and part of it has to be the training they get, but i get the idea that there are a LOT of xenophobic assholes in uniforms over there.

maybe changing political tides in america will motivate more altruistic people to enlist

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

More Altruistic? The men and women in uniform we have now fall into two classes...

1. Those who are willing to lay down thier lives.. fight and die so that others may live in Peace... These make up the majority.

2. And idiots that for what ever stupid reason never realized they would have to touch a gun to get that college money.

Reason 1 seems to fall into the definition of Altruism

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BTW.. the Shiites and the Sunnis are never going to make amends.. not till everyone of one of the two sects is dead. One only has to study the differences between them and the history of thier conflict to realize this.

The Kurds.. well... they are the only ones actually willing to come to some middle ground... but they are infedels and both Muslim sects want them dead because of it....

I'm sorry.. but a "peacefull" reconciliation is never going to happen when the fundementals are so dynamically opposed... it's going to take force to bring peace to that area. Lots of force.

[BrassFusion]

there are some people from category 1 (hopefully not many, but i know for a fact there are SOME of them) who think that peace in america will be accomplished by killing the evil brown people.

you know what the road to hell is paved with

[Msterbeau]

would these be our american soldiers placed in a position of diplomatic relations?

shudder.

part of it's a result of who's willing to enlist in the first place, and part of it has to be the training they get, but i get the idea that there are a LOT of xenophobic assholes in uniforms over there.

maybe changing political tides in america will motivate more altruistic people to enlist

Since when is training diplomatic? I don't even know if training them will help. They might just use the training to kill more of each other.

[Msterbeau]

I'm sorry.. but a "peacefull" reconciliation is never going to happen when the fundementals are so dynamically opposed... it's going to take force to bring peace to that area. Lots of force.

Which is why we should leave now. It's not our job to kill them until they cooperate. Let them do that themselves.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Uh-huh.. because an early pullout of Vietnam worked so well... at killing innocent civilians..

[BrassFusion]

Uh-huh.. because an early pullout of Vietnam worked so well... at killing innocent civilians..

you're suggesting fewer people would have died if we were still occupying vietnam?

[phee]

you're suggesting fewer people would have died if we were still occupying vietnam?

That's what I gathered from his meaning...

[Steven]

BTW.. the Shiites and the Sunnis are never going to make amends.. not till everyone of one of the two sects is dead. One only has to study the differences between them and the history of thier conflict to realize this.

The Kurds.. well... they are the only ones actually willing to come to some middle ground... but they are infedels and both Muslim sects want them dead because of it....

I'm sorry.. but a "peacefull" reconciliation is never going to happen when the fundementals are so dynamically opposed... it's going to take force to bring peace to that area. Lots of force.

America the beautiful does not have what it takes to reconcile that region of the world that has never been reconciled.

And that force you describe.....takes a whole lot of Cha CHing. We cant afforred it.

[machine]

We could do them a favor and add a new export to their list.

Glass.

[phee]

We could do them a favor and add a new export to their list.

Glass.

Are you suggesting Nukes my friend?

[machine]

That was more of a joke. But, that is what I was leading on to... but just a joke of course. We are a long ways off from needing to do that there.

[Head Wreck]

i hope we dont go that far as theres a lot nastier than nukes in the worlds arsenals, and i think were doing a pretty fine job of fucking up the planet as it is.

iraq is an odd situation. i wouldnt even begin to try to find a method of cooling the situation down

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

We could always take the French approach... and threaten to nuke Mecca if anyone attacks the USA or it's interests. I'm pretty sure we have a small yield nuke about somewhere... maybe one seeded with cobalt...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

btw.. North Vietnam stormed in after we left. People were slaughtered. This is the exactly thing that the people that feared a pullout, thought would happen. It is also exactly what people fear today.

The real parallel between Vietnam and Iraq is that Congress is still trying to fight a war from the Senate floor with their only true aim being to get votes. It didn't work then and it won’t work now. Diplomacy, Military Might and damn good Tactics win wars... Not Politics.

[Vampyro]

just my two cents, i'm not a historian but... just what i've witnessed on life... here's my take on the whole thing...

one, why we need to pull out, we've been there for years now and iraq still can't get it's act together so they say, I'm not sure, I'll figure that out when i got here again. However I know this, the Marines, notoriously feared as the most deadly military force world wide, and it only took us 3 months of basic training... and we've been training them for how many years now? Let's face it, they just aint catching the drift.

two, why we need to pull out, these people have been fighting for generations, based on religeon... this type of fighting will never stop, no matter how much force is used. I know this because I have the same mind set, for fighting for so long, no matter who comes in my face, or how big they are, i just instinctively know to stand my ground and take them out by whatever means neccesary. And this is just one life, these people have been fighting for so long, it would take a LONG TIME with ALOT of force, the likes of which would require so much man power and recources, that we couldn't even start even if it seemed possible.

three, i really don't appreciate you trying to categorize the types of people to join the military, everyone has their own reasons, and everyone knows the risks involved. Gaf, before you speak ill of any service member, think back... did you walk a mile in their shoes? the comments you've been leaving lately are a dead giveaway you havent. Yes I'm doing it for the money, what other reason is there to go to iraq? to free america? come on, us being there is causing more terrorists. Yet, seems your possee of republicans like Devoss... really been fucking the economy over hard core, to make that one of the only choices young people like me have left. No one in the service is a coward. For you to sit back and call certain ones cowards, when you yourself haven't done a thing, and also being pro war with all this? A bit of constructive criticizm... you're making an ass out of yourself.

I'm against this Iraq war thing, i've seen them out there, and i'm going out there again, I know it'll never be resolved, but at least I can get enough money to make ends meet... and yes.. if i live through it again... use the extra college money to get up to speed on skills, and actually get a decent job, and make a good place for myself... really... what's so wrong about that? If the country was actually in danger, yes i would pick up a gun without a 2nd thought, whether i was in the service or not, it wouldn't matter, I'm patriotic in that respect.

Unfortunately, pulling out would result in a slaughter for power, and a dictatorship would arise again, but if you look at the big picture, it makes sense...

it's a big fucking desert out there, not much recources to stay alive with, while we have a cushy life with fertile soil, they do need to have a bit more survivalist ways than we do, meaning strong survive, strong take over the weak, resulting in a dictatorship. The best analogy i can think of...

Village in a gully, next to a dam that's holding the water back, keeping the town from flooding...

bush sees a small hole in the dam, sticks his finger in it too roughly, and it cracks, taking it out will cause the dam to crash and flood the town...

it's unfixable now, it worked rather decent before we got involved, and now we can't pull out otherwise it's utterly fucked.... Don't fix it if it aint broke comes to mind...

But oh, sadam was bombing people... not to sound cold but... SO FUCKING WHAT

They prostitute 5 year olds in Taiwan... and why aren't we over there in full force in a fine show of military display to save the children from the evil pedophiles that vacation there for that?

...it's certainly more apt to tug on the strings of the ever bleeding hearts of american citizens, in a vulgar hyped clusterfucked show of "morals" as an excuse to administer military force...

There's so much other parts of the world that are even worse than that. In Djibouti, you would see people almost fight to death for a plant called khat, druglike, but supressed hunger, and they were all starving over there, no food, just the khat, so that's all they had and would fight over it...

Iraq is fucking Disney compared to the rest of the world ok?

That's why I think we just need to get the hell out of there, let the dam break and flood that town, let a dictatorship take over... who gives a fuck? They aint america, we aren't their parents, nor did we ever owe them anything to begin with. New Orleans is still a fucked mess, the economy is on a downward spiral, and there's american's suffering, the blood of the country... the common american citizen... We have our own problems to take care of... we need to stop worrying about Iraq and take care of ourselves. And besides, Iraq was just a half assed lie just so bush and his buddies could get filthy rich by bankrupting our country.

[Msterbeau]

I think a tidal surge would work much better....

[kellygrrrrrl]

Pull out.....

is what she said.

She being me.

[torn asunder]

I think a tidal surge would work much better....

Pull out.....

is what she said.

She being me.

must... not... make... perverted... comment... :doh :fear

[kellygrrrrrl]

here, let me help you get that head out of that gutter!

silly rabbit