Posers And Wannabe's?

[Fierce Critter]

none of us are old enough and weren't there when it happened. I mean shit isn't Peter Murphy like 50 now?

Speak for yourself, child.

[Scary Guy]

Speak for yourself, child.

When did you turn 50? At worst I thought late 30's

[Fierce Critter]

When did you turn 50? At worst I thought late 30's

Don't know what you're defining as the "start" of the scene.

But Siouxsie & the Banshees' Siouxsie is often credited with coining the "goth" term. And the Banshees didn't even form until around 1976.

And Bauhaus formed around 1978.

Granted I may not be as old as those who actually started the scene itself. And I didn't start off "goth", I was more new wave. My initial attraction to that scene hit me around 6th grade, which would have been when I was about 11 or 12, 1979 or 1980.

New Wave led into the New Romanticism, into punk, into goth. While everyone else around me were wearing Eddie Money, Seger & Journey t-shirts, I was splatter painting my own black pants, t-shirts, and dying my hair pink.

I'm not going to bullshit you and say I was wearing fishnet, safety pins, biker jackets and lots of black eyeliner in the early 80's. But that was mostly because I wasn't heavily enough exposed to the scene beyond a clip or two on MTV and the rare pick-up of underground/college radio.

It took a lot of digging and asking around before I learned who did "those '10:15 Saturday Night' and "F I R E I N C A I R O" songs. Even then, the only reason I found my answers to that was because I had an English exchange student in some of my classes who was SUPER into punk, New Wave & mildly into Goth. He turned me on to NME and Melody Maker (which, thank GOD, were available at the Detroit Public Library) and that's when I really started thirsting for and scraping up whatever I could of what was really hard to come by in the 'States.

I may not have actually been involved in the thick of it. But I knew it was out there and grabbed what I could find.

[Daniel]

Daevion has it right too, and technically we're all posers anyhow since none of us are old enough and weren't there when it happened. I mean shit isn't Peter Murphy like 50 now?

When what happened? The start of the Goth scene? Seems from one of the other poll threads that no one here feels they are Goth anyway, so I don't see how this applies.

[Scary Guy]

How is this related to the nightlife forum?

It isn't, I thought it was obvious it was in the wrong forum, so I didn't say anything.

When what happened? The start of the Goth scene? Seems from one of the other poll threads that no one here feels they are Goth anyway, so I don't see how this applies.

Good observation here too. Even still everyone feels their better than someone else, and thus feels the need to vocalize (or put into text) that fact to said person or group giving that person some sort of validation.

[MarsDustDoug]

Wanna relate one of my fav CC stories on this topic.

A few years ago I was on one of my random visit to ye olde CC when a small child of but 18 and his trollop of a girlfriend whom was also 18 stared at me for a good minute. He was shirtless with fishnet sleeves and she was wearing a black sirt short enough to see her lack of an ass. Me in my jeans and I believe my tshirt that just says "ZOMBIE" in block letter across the front stared back for a minute at the two little souls and finally questioned them both "What?" I asked of them. To that they both retorted "what are you doing here... you arent goth" the tone of their voice rang like a true little elitist.

Now mind you... i was 23 at the time. First time i went to CC i was 16 and with my friends older sister and her friend. We went about four times before I was 18. Also I found the joys of industrial when i was 12 (no that isnt meant to be a Hey look how old school and on top of things I have been. its just relevant to the story and in no means gives me any sort of cred. i just got lucky hehe)

I was just amazed. I "politely" let these two know the facts stated above and that I had been "here", be it CC or listening to the music, since before they knew there was music outside of Disney toons

And no... i do not consider myself goth... im a crossbreed of a whole mess of things hehe.

so yes... I do agree wit the fact poser/wannabe is something that is flung around without much care or true definitive reason. Just because one knows more about ones scene/style/music/etc gives them the ability to call anyone else that doesnt know as much, but is part of the same scene, a poser/wannabe. Which isnt a very god reason to be able to do so.

[phee]

Wanna relate one of my fav CC stories on this topic.

A few years ago I was on one of my random visit to ye olde CC when a small child of but 18 and his trollop of a girlfriend whom was also 18 stared at me for a good minute. He was shirtless with fishnet sleeves and she was wearing a black sirt short enough to see her lack of an ass. Me in my jeans and I believe my tshirt that just says "ZOMBIE" in block letter across the front stared back for a minute at the two little souls and finally questioned them both "What?" I asked of them. To that they both retorted "what are you doing here... you arent goth" the tone of their voice rang like a true little elitist.

Now mind you... i was 23 at the time. First time i went to CC i was 16 and with my friends older sister and her friend. We went about four times before I was 18. Also I found the joys of industrial when i was 12 (no that isnt meant to be a Hey look how old school and on top of things I have been. its just relevant to the story and in no means gives me any sort of cred. i just got lucky hehe)

I was just amazed. I "politely" let these two know the facts stated above and that I had been "here", be it CC or listening to the music, since before they knew there was music outside of Disney toons

And no... i do not consider myself goth... im a crossbreed of a whole mess of things hehe.

so yes... I do agree wit the fact poser/wannabe is something that is flung around without much care or true definitive reason. Just because one knows more about ones scene/style/music/etc gives them the ability to call anyone else that doesnt know as much, but is part of the same scene, a poser/wannabe. Which isnt a very god reason to be able to do so.

Nice post!

[Scales]

The idea behind a poser or wannabe is a social method to exclude someone from a subculture/group/team/ect. When there shared standards such as with sports, the terms might be looked at as more conclusive to majority, such as someone who hasn't made a team but still wears the uniform is a poser (at least in the minds of the general public).

As far as any kind of group/subculture/whatever where each person has personal standards as to what makes a member/goth/whatever, it matters to each person as much as they want it to matter. Sure a guy in a cheap cape with plastic vampire fangs, fake blood, and a sharpie drawn ankh is going to look a lot less genuine and hilarious compared to a guy with a bunch of expensive Victorian threads, a walking stick, animatronic wings, makeup, and theatrical lenses; but only because of the learned standards the observer has given themselves, which is the hard way of looking at it.

Insulting people you genuinely dislike is putting effort into someone else's life by showing you dislike them, which is a pointless act of showing your own insecurity and getting nothing out of it.

Don't know if it makes sense, just my two cents.

[Ivy13]

I don't really "wannabe" anything other than myself. If I were to come to CC then I might be called a poser. I probably couldn't name the music that was playing. I like all types of music but would probably be not up on much current stuff.

I'm interested in some darker aspects of life but most people would think I'm generally too "nice" for that sort of thing. In the 80s I was just the depressed loner chick who wore too many dark clothes and too much makeup. I didn't fit into any group then. I fit in now to the groups I give a damn about. Honestly, goth always seemed to encompass more than skulls and bones. When did it become so narrow?

I don't know. It seems true what other posters have said that the terms poser and wannabe are spouted from the mouths of children. I certainly haven't heard them since my 20s. Ah well, off to buy more dark clothes.

[Hellion]

The only group I fit in is with 3 people,me,myself and I.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

ok...seeing as I know how this subject came about, I think it's only fitting that I comment.

ok...as to the term "poser" and "wannabe" being highschool terms...yes, they are...so please inform all the people that those terms would fit to grow up...it's not highschool any more.

Do I use that term when I describe that majority of the CC crowd? You can bet your ass I do.

Why? These are the kind of people that you can talk to, and they don't know half the culture behind what they are wearing, what they are listening too, or how they are acting. They do it simply because they seen it on MTV, or seen someone else wear it...so they dress EXACTLY like that person, or some reasonable impression there-of.

THAT is my definition of a poser or wannabe.....probably something I should have made clear earlier.

Originality is so simple. Hell...I always crafted my own "bondage chains" when I had them...I don't wear them anymore..cuz..well...I been to busy to make new pair...and I lost my old ones due to moving...alot. 4-6 decent sized dog leashes can be combined to make one hell of a set of chains. My first pair had one of the chains slant across my ass...just so when ppl asked why it was crooked...I thanked them for looking at my ass!!!

and unless you get them on sale, a baggy pair of black cargo jeans and a combination of dog chains will alot longer, and be cheaper, then your $50 pair of Tripp pants that will rip the first 48 hours you wear them.

I BLEED my love: Music...you can tell it by looking at me: like a bad combo of Meatloaf, Rob Zombie, and Brett Micheals...and you can tell it when you talk to me...cuz I can go one...and on....and on...and on.....about music: jazz, blues, rock, metal, techno, industrial...pretty much anything NOT classical and country. My biggest regret is that I don't have the patience to learn how to play...and I don't have the talent to sing (reason's why I am promoter and booking agent).

I'm not trying to come across stuck up...and yes...I know it's seeming like it, but I am so tired of people that don't know even half the culture they emulate....makes me want to throw up some times.

It's like someone saying they love metal..but the only band they can name is Gwar. You don't go to a Gwar concert to hear music...you go to a Gwar concert to get into some really good moshpits, get sprayed with blood, and see the insane costumes/ props they have.

[Fierce Critter]

Insulting people you genuinely dislike is putting effort into someone else's life by showing you dislike them, which is a pointless act of showing your own insecurity and getting nothing out of it.

Amen.

Fits in with my general feeling that taking time to hassle others is wasted time - I've personally got way too much on my plate to spend time being negative towards someone else.

[Daniel]

GodfallenPromos says a bunch of stuff

I agree

Fits in with my general feeling that taking time to hassle others is wasted time - I've personally got way too much on my plate to spend time being negative towards someone else.

That sounds awfully lofty, but it hasn't escaped anyone's notice that your plate isn't too full for posting on message boards. I think you are clever enough to have a better reason to not be negative towards people than because you're too busy.

But, anyway, I don't see calling someone a poser any more insulting than calling someone a tourist, but that seems to be ok with the bulk of you. I simply think "poser" is a more specific term, describing a similar and specific personality. At this stage in the game, I don't see it as too insulting, as these people are pretty much fixtures in the scene. But, the fact that places like City Club are loaded with them will make me inclined to not want to go there (among other reasons like filthy bathrooms and shitty music). No offense to those of you that like the place.

Part of what attracted me to the Gothic scene back in the day (long ago) was the high class, great tastes and heavy level or originality. Sure, sure, I hear the common retort of Gothic kids all doing the same thing, but that isn't the scene I was exposed to or involved in. I was pulled in by these incredibly dynamic, educated and creative people who made wonderful works of art, music, stories and so forth. People that took pride in what they were doing, and weren't afraid of calling themselves Gothic because, you know, there isn't anything wrong with being Gothic. So, when you see some kids with no clue or idea basically lifting your ideas, your tastes and your styles, and trying to emulate them, you can't help but round them into a stereotype. Especially when it becomes this very obvious and identifiable pattern of behavior. Over the years, it has become pretty easy to spot scene "posers". I don't identify them because of some insecurity complex I have (you're way barking up the wrong tree on that one), or because I derive pleasure from shitting on people or even because I'm some bully and want an excuse to exclude people from the "cool group". It is more calling a spade a spade. Someone may be insulted by that, but it comes back to... is it me being insulting or that person being overly sensitive? Again, the correct answer is: Who gives a shit? Just be yourself and hang around people you like to hang around. I'll do the same.

And as someone else mentioned, sometimes those posers stick around long enough that they finally "get it" and evolve. And that's great, I think.

[Shade Everdark]

Part of what attracted me to the Gothic scene back in the day (long ago) was the high class, great tastes and heavy level or originality. ...I was pulled in by these incredibly dynamic, educated and creative people who made wonderful works of art, music, stories and so forth. People that took pride in what they were doing, and weren't afraid of calling themselves Gothic because, you know, there isn't anything wrong with being Gothic.

Gee, I'm glad I had nothing to do with that. Sounds dreadful.

[Daniel]

Gee, I'm glad I had nothing to do with that. Sounds dreadful.

What exactly? Being part of an inventive and creative group of people?

[Shade Everdark]

What exactly? Being part of an inventive and creative group of people?

Yeah, sorry.

I was trying to express sarcasm and regret at the same time. Didn't work too well. Apologies.

[Daniel]

Yeah, sorry.

I was trying to express sarcasm and regret at the same time. Didn't work too well. Apologies.

Ahh, no, I see what you're saying. Just looking for clarification.

[Fierce Critter]

I agree

That sounds awfully lofty, but it hasn't escaped anyone's notice that your plate isn't too full for posting on message boards. I think you are clever enough to have a better reason to not be negative towards people than because you're too busy.

Posting on message boards = gaining new knowledge = social interaction = sharing, caring & being involved = postivity = worth my time.

Pissing on people = putting myself above someone else = waste of time that could be spent in POSITIVE pursuits = negativity = waste of time.

I didn't say I was "too busy". I said doing the above is, generally, a waste of time.

For anyone.

[Joey Deadcat]

I agree

That sounds awfully lofty, but it hasn't escaped anyone's notice that your plate isn't too full for posting on message boards. I think you are clever enough to have a better reason to not be negative towards people than because you're too busy.

But, anyway, I don't see calling someone a poser any more insulting than calling someone a tourist, but that seems to be ok with the bulk of you. I simply think "poser" is a more specific term, describing a similar and specific personality. At this stage in the game, I don't see it as too insulting, as these people are pretty much fixtures in the scene. But, the fact that places like City Club are loaded with them will make me inclined to not want to go there (among other reasons like filthy bathrooms and shitty music). No offense to those of you that like the place.

Part of what attracted me to the Gothic scene back in the day (long ago) was the high class, great tastes and heavy level or originality. Sure, sure, I hear the common retort of Gothic kids all doing the same thing, but that isn't the scene I was exposed to or involved in. I was pulled in by these incredibly dynamic, educated and creative people who made wonderful works of art, music, stories and so forth. People that took pride in what they were doing, and weren't afraid of calling themselves Gothic because, you know, there isn't anything wrong with being Gothic. So, when you see some kids with no clue or idea basically lifting your ideas, your tastes and your styles, and trying to emulate them, you can't help but round them into a stereotype. Especially when it becomes this very obvious and identifiable pattern of behavior. Over the years, it has become pretty easy to spot scene "posers". I don't identify them because of some insecurity complex I have (you're way barking up the wrong tree on that one), or because I derive pleasure from shitting on people or even because I'm some bully and want an excuse to exclude people from the "cool group". It is more calling a spade a spade. Someone may be insulted by that, but it comes back to... is it me being insulting or that person being overly sensitive? Again, the correct answer is: Who gives a shit? Just be yourself and hang around people you like to hang around. I'll do the same.

And as someone else mentioned, sometimes those posers stick around long enough that they finally "get it" and evolve. And that's great, I think.

Y'know what? Yer alright! Though, I didn't know that the term "poser" was still being used in this day and age. I just see it as folks who don't know any better or who are going about things the wrong way. In any case that's probably the most perceptive and well-put post on the matter.

And, yeah, I know where you're coming from on how it used to be. Hell, I remember how it used to be during the 80s. What goth once was deathrock and art-punk now is.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

The 80's were the hayday of goth. Sarcasm and cattyness. Mean people. PC would have been laughed into non-existance. If a goth was talking, it was either something sarcastic or something mean about someone.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

and yeah, a spade is a spade. Posers are just people trying to be something they are not. i used to point and laugh at them.. now I just... i still point and laugh.. never mind.

[Lilith]

Yeah... it seems to belong in a 12 year old world... I was just surprised to actually here people over the age of 21 using the term and actually meaning it...

Hell i was surprised to even here Kids still use it, i thought terms we used as kids were suposed to make our own kids laugh at our uncoolness.

Then i was super shocked to hop on here and see a post about it and then have it refer to adults.

weird weird world!

[Scary Guy]

Hell i was surprised to even here Kids still use it, i thought terms we used as kids were suposed to make our own kids laugh at our uncoolness.

Then i was super shocked to hop on here and see a post about it and then have it refer to adults.

weird weird world!

When you say adults you should use it in quotes. Especially when referring to CC.

At 14 I was wiser than most of the "adults" I know today, and I don't think I was even that bright back then (ok yeah I was)

People still don't get it, and they might know a lot of information, but this does not mean they have the wisdom to use it.

At the base of our minds is "monkey see, monkey do". We emulate that which we like, and most of the time it's in an effort to fit into a group of people.

We don't like someone or think they don't belong. They're a wanabe, poser, faker, interloper, whatever other term you fancy for saying "you don't belong". This doesn't just happen in subcultures but towns, religious groups, organizations, frats, locker rooms, clubs (usually via a bouncer), families, or generally any other group of people not of the same mind that don't share the same train of thought. "Sorry you application has been denied and scene privileges revoked, come back when you're not a total loser"

It's really too bad that people can't be liked despite being different, if only ever so slightly.

[Steven]

Don't know what you're defining as the "start" of the scene.

But Siouxsie & the Banshees' Siouxsie is often credited with coining the "goth" term. And the Banshees didn't even form until around 1976.

And Bauhaus formed around 1978.

Granted I may not be as old as those who actually started the scene itself. And I didn't start off "goth", I was more new wave. My initial attraction to that scene hit me around 6th grade, which would have been when I was about 11 or 12, 1979 or 1980.

New Wave led into the New Romanticism, into punk, into goth. While everyone else around me were wearing Eddie Money, Seger & Journey t-shirts, I was splatter painting my own black pants, t-shirts, and dying my hair pink.

I'm not going to bullshit you and say I was wearing fishnet, safety pins, biker jackets and lots of black eyeliner in the early 80's. But that was mostly because I wasn't heavily enough exposed to the scene beyond a clip or two on MTV and the rare pick-up of underground/college radio.

It took a lot of digging and asking around before I learned who did "those '10:15 Saturday Night' and "F I R E I N C A I R O" songs. Even then, the only reason I found my answers to that was because I had an English exchange student in some of my classes who was SUPER into punk, New Wave & mildly into Goth. He turned me on to NME and Melody Maker (which, thank GOD, were available at the Detroit Public Library) and that's when I really started thirsting for and scraping up whatever I could of what was really hard to come by in the 'States.

I may not have actually been involved in the thick of it. But I knew it was out there and grabbed what I could find.

I thought Ian Stbury coined the phrase back when he wa sin the Southern Death Cult?

but what do I know? I aint Goth I just play one on TV

[wearyone]

The term "Poser" and "Wannabe" are terms that I had not heard in years when describing others in subculture settings... and then I have heard those terms in the last few months several times...

I heard these terms in Highschool all the time... drawing a distinction between those who are "real" or just "faking" it when it comes to the subculture... Then I found there really is no difference, you are going to be accused of faking it no matter what, you are going to be caused a poser if you don't know much about gothiness and you start trying to get into it, there is no way around it. The thing is there is a moment when people have seen you enough and all of a sudden they stop thinking you are faking and think you are "real"... I still feel like I am faking it, but I moderate on a goth board, I perform industrial music, and I have DJ'd at nectos... so people just stopped accusing me of it...

Honestly if someone is faking it... so what? they are listening the the music, drinking the booze and having fun right?

Usually when I hear someone throwing the term around, I make an assumption that they need to make themselves feel more important or better then others... It is the same as feeling Gothier then thow...

I had heard the term "tourist" before... and I guess I found that more accurate, it didn't really doesn't have any antagonistic context to it... it just seemed to described a person who is curious about "the club" or "the scene" and usually doesn't stay long.... Not that I have a problem with some mean terms (heh)

Just want to get your thoughts....

I'm new on the board here, but...

I was goth before goth was cool.. I didn't KNOW what I was. Some said I was punk, then new wave, other kids parents were not wanting their kid to hang with the girl who liked weird stuff, clothes, hair, makeup and acted like everyday was halloween. I was a wannabe normal for years.

Then I realized, you know, goth fits. But then I realized I'm just me... so why slap a label on myself. So now I'm just me, I'll hang out online in my pink pj's and wear whatever else I want, drink what I want, and dance how I want, but if someone says to me are you goth? I'll answer.. are you always annoying? Heh.. that's just me.

Wanna be, and poser, could describe a lot of people, but why bother... it's more fun to just be.