Hr847

[Shade Everdark]

Look, I hate to break it to you folks, but Hitler was not an atheist. The documentation makes it pretty clear that he held a different set of views from those he usually espoused in public view, but everything still indicates that, while he was unhappy with the religious dogma of his time and saw the power of the church as a potential threat to his own power, he was still a Christian, if a non-practicing one. So, let's drop that particular canard, shall we. I'm tired of being beaten over the head with it, when it is quite demonstrably false.

To dispel another fallacy made mention of, here, Hitler's Nazism was not socialism by any stretch of the imagination. While there has been argument as to whether Nazism falls under the umbrella of fascism (defined in a stricter, slightly narrower sense than is common for the term to be used today), Hitler's regime was in no way socialist. He depended too much on the support of corporate heads for his rise to power, and he didn't forget his corporate toadies when he was made Fuhrer. Furthermore, the only association Hitler ever had with socialism was the party he co-opted, the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP). He was never a socialist himself, in fact, if I remember correctly from my reading, he was rather violently opposed to the ideas of socialism and communism. The fact that he took over the party and used it for his own ends makes him (and his Nazism) no more a socialist than he was a native-born German (he was born in Austria).

Finally, I'm a little tired of the terms 'socialism' and 'socialist' being used as a pejorative. Socialism is not inherently evil, and capitalism is certainly not inherently good, which is how things seem to be characterized the past few years.

[Destroit]

Look, I hate to break it to you folks, but Hitler was not an atheist. The documentation makes it pretty clear that he held a different set of views from those he usually espoused in public view, but everything still indicates that, while he was unhappy with the religious dogma of his time and saw the power of the church as a potential threat to his own power, he was still a Christian, if a non-practicing one. So, let's drop that particular canard, shall we. I'm tired of being beaten over the head with it, when it is quite demonstrably false.

To dispel another fallacy made mention of, here, Hitler's Nazism was not socialism by any stretch of the imagination. While there has been argument as to whether Nazism falls under the umbrella of fascism (defined in a stricter, slightly narrower sense than is common for the term to be used today), Hitler's regime was in no way socialist. He depended too much on the support of corporate heads for his rise to power, and he didn't forget his corporate toadies when he was made Fuhrer. Furthermore, the only association Hitler ever had with socialism was the party he co-opted, the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP). He was never a socialist himself, in fact, if I remember correctly from my reading, he was rather violently opposed to the ideas of socialism and communism. The fact that he took over the party and used it for his own ends makes him (and his Nazism) no more a socialist than he was a native-born German (he was born in Austria).

Finally, I'm a little tired of the terms 'socialism' and 'socialist' being used as a pejorative. Socialism is not inherently evil, and capitalism is certainly not inherently good, which is how things seem to be characterized the past few years.

Yeeeap, agreed with the part about Hitler and the socialism. I actually think I knew the part about his religious stance, but it's a long time since I've taken in any information on the guy.

[ttogreh]

CONGRESS HAS ADOPTED SIMILAR RESOLUTIONS FOR RAMADAN, HANNUKAH, DIWALI, ET CETERA.

THEY ALL PASSED OVERWHELMINGLY.

Christ in a boxcar, research things a little bit.

[Scales]

I find this pretty disturbing, since I feel that legality should represent some form of intelligence, and I completely disagree that any religion can actually be respectable. BS like this trods on the constitution, my deepest respect goes to rationality whether it's legal or not.

[freydis]

CONGRESS HAS ADOPTED SIMILAR RESOLUTIONS FOR RAMADAN, HANNUKAH, DIWALI, ET CETERA.

THEY ALL PASSED OVERWHELMINGLY.

Christ in a boxcar, research things a little bit.

cite?

[ttogreh]

Diwali

Ramadan

Oddly enough, the 110th Congress seemed to snub Hannukah...

[Steven]

I would be disturbed and would think it violated the separation if it somehow elevated Christian faith above other faiths.

Bingo!

to me this seeks to reaffirm and protect what did not need to be protected by law 200 years ago because it was simply part of the american fabric and was understand by joe citizen. Now it seems as if all Joe Citizen understands is "don't you dare offend me"....

nowadays we re-write everything about oursleves. Including our alleged (but I beleive it) "christian" heritage.

this movement does not elevate Christianity above other faiths, nor does it denounce other faiths. All it really does, is recognize Christianity as a valuable peice of our American identity. And I have no issue with that.

to me it sounds as if someone out there is trying to preserve history, beofre its written out completely, and I'd say thats pretty important.

[Steven]

It kinda does that by singling Christianity out amongst all faiths that are practiced here.

"kinda" does not do it for me Marc. Other faiths and representatives of said faith (even wiccans) have a voice, the ability to gather and collect other voices, spend their personal time and resources recognizing themselves as a part of the american fabric as well.

so do it. Womens libbers did not like the feeling that they were being ostracized, so they organized.

I've nothign against that. Organize. Do your thing. collect your voice you movers and shakers.

to me its just a waste to criticize others who have done this same thing and to hint at chrich and state issues....when in reality (in my non educated mind) the seperation of Chruch and state was done to prevent any official government direction and overseeing of faiths....such as what you see in CHina today.

[Steven]

*facedesk*

Until I see similar resolutions passed for Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and so forth, I'm going to have to say that this is crossing the line, in spirit if not in letter.

While Gaf is technically correct in that this establishes no religious test for holding office nor officially establishes Christianity as a state religion, it comes closer than I want it to. I will only say that resolutions such as this one, not legally binding, in this day and age, are both inflammatory and counter-productive.

For those who want it, the text of the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Again, while I don't think there are any overt impingements on First Amendment rights here, the term 'chilling effect' I think, is particularly apt for this resolution.

Go for it Shade, write somebody a letter, start a movement.

nobody's stopping you or even trying to stop you or even cares.

[Steven]

I have to ask... what makes you think the Democrats are the champions of all that is right and just?

It was the Democrats that supported slavery and the Republicans that free'd the slaves.

It was the Democrats that opposed Women's Sufferage.

It was the Democrats that opposed desegragation and the Republicans that fought for it.

It was a Republican that created the EPA.

I really don't understand people who blindly follow the hype of the Democratic party and ignore thier history of oppression of our rights and thier attempts to justify it.

ah see now you've done it and treaded upon sacred ground my friend....

[Steven]

Look, I hate to break it to you folks, but Hitler was not an atheist. The documentation makes it pretty clear that he held a different set of views from those he usually espoused in public view, but everything still indicates that, while he was unhappy with the religious dogma of his time and saw the power of the church as a potential threat to his own power, he was still a Christian, if a non-practicing one. So, let's drop that particular canard, shall we. I'm tired of being beaten over the head with it, when it is quite demonstrably false.

To dispel another fallacy made mention of, here, Hitler's Nazism was not socialism by any stretch of the imagination. While there has been argument as to whether Nazism falls under the umbrella of fascism (defined in a stricter, slightly narrower sense than is common for the term to be used today), Hitler's regime was in no way socialist. He depended too much on the support of corporate heads for his rise to power, and he didn't forget his corporate toadies when he was made Fuhrer. Furthermore, the only association Hitler ever had with socialism was the party he co-opted, the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP). He was never a socialist himself, in fact, if I remember correctly from my reading, he was rather violently opposed to the ideas of socialism and communism. The fact that he took over the party and used it for his own ends makes him (and his Nazism) no more a socialist than he was a native-born German (he was born in Austria).

Finally, I'm a little tired of the terms 'socialism' and 'socialist' being used as a pejorative. Socialism is not inherently evil, and capitalism is certainly not inherently good, which is how things seem to be characterized the past few years.

dude, a non practising christian is not a christian.

a christian ins a lifstyle based on a set of beleifs and principles.

which is based on an alleged God-Man who was sent to mediate between mortal and divine.

nothing Hitler did reflects that lifestyle.

doesnet matter whats written on paper - thats just a way to shelve and compartmentalize people.

I dont see all people in church as christians - I see people leading the life of Christ (even strugglign thru it like i do at times) as Christian.

ANd hitler's ties to Mr Crowley would suggest otherwise as well.

In fact in light of that last statment....I'd assume that he beleived in "YHWH" - because i many ways he opposed him.

big time fucking thread jack on that one.

[sass_in_the_pants]

I think it's strange how often on this forum Hitler is used as a reference for nationalism gone awry and all of the other tyrants of the 20th century get completely ignored.

What about Pol Pot, and his Khmer Rouge? They only kill 1m Cambodians and he's a nobody.

Pinochet, Tito, Ho Chi Minh...good dictators all of them, yet all anybody can remember is Hitler.

Maybe it was the moustache.

[n0Mad]

I think it's strange how often on this forum Hitler is used as a reference for nationalism gone awry and all of the other tyrants of the 20th century get completely ignored.

What about Pol Pot, and his Khmer Rouge? They only kill 1m Cambodians and he's a nobody.

Pinochet, Tito, Ho Chi Minh...good dictators all of them, yet all anybody can remember is Hitler.

Maybe it was the moustache.

I brought up Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot in my follow up post as proponents for gun control (easier to commit genocide when they cannot defend themselves) but it was easier to find a quote from Hitler. He had a better PR team I suppose.

[Steven]

I brought up Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot in my follow up post as proponents for gun control (easier to commit genocide when they cannot defend themselves) but it was easier to find a quote from Hitler. He had a better PR team I suppose.

no, like she said....its all in the moustache .....

[boshy]

I have to ask... what makes you think the Democrats are the champions of all that is right and just?

It was the Democrats that supported slavery and the Republicans that free'd the slaves.

It was the Democrats that opposed Women's Sufferage.

It was the Democrats that opposed desegragation and the Republicans that fought for it.

It was a Republican that created the EPA.

I really don't understand people who blindly follow the hype of the Democratic party and ignore thier history of oppression of our rights and thier attempts to justify it.

Excuse me but I happen to be a republican (I have been for 35 years). I just made an observation that dems hold the majority in both the houses.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I misread what you wrote. Sorry.

[the eternal]

HR847

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.res.00847:

Anyone else the least bit disturbed over this?

At the very least, I think there's far more appropriate things (and far more important to law) that they should be concerning themselves with.....

I'm just so glad that SOMEONE stood up for the oppressed Christians in this country.

Besides newspapers, radio, TV,

political functions, workplaces, malls, amusement parks, printed money, churches, camps, schools, internet, and about five zillion other institutions,

I don't know anywhere that presents things from a Christian perspective.

[Steven]

I'm just so glad that SOMEONE stood up for the oppressed Christians in this country.

Besides newspapers, radio, TV,

political functions, workplaces, malls, amusement parks, printed money, churches, camps, schools, internet, and about five zillion other institutions,

I don't know anywhere that presents things from a Christian perspective.

not quite sure what you mean by this one bro - because Im a bit off on my sarcasm radar today....dont even know if yrou even being sarcastic or???

[pharoh]

Yup that was sarcasm

[Steven]

Yup that was sarcasm

in light of that...

lets use a recent event...Mike Huckabee, and his public chastizing for wishing people a merry christmas, oh the horror. you've got him being called into question even because the shelf behind him had intersecting lines that looked like a cross and you could see three ornaments...father son holy ghost......

Mike Huckabee had to come back on TV and refuse to apologize (which I LOVED).

there's an example of a media driven anti christian sentiment.

and if you really want to see them or acknowledge them, they are everywhere all around us.

personally I think there is an agenda to suggest that there is this Christian right ravenous wolf in control of everything and to me that is simply good old fashioned american propoganda that could not be farther from the truth.

the actual momentum and especially YOUNG american mindset - is that of an opposing perception of traditional christianity. The future stands against a man like me.

and I still beleive, that in our lifetime christianity will be outlawed in AMerica - or at the very least - state run like it is in China. Id be willin gto bet my life on that one.

[ttogreh]

Steven, the problem with pessimism or optimism is that they are all-or-nothing outlooks on life. We might, might see things going the way you see them going. However, we might see a mixed bag. Indeed, history seems to predict a more muddled and less conclusive outcome of these coming years.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, and the myriad other faiths are interacting with each other more than in any other period of history. That, fills me with hope. Cautious hope, but hope nonetheless.

Steven, stay away from the fallacy of the excluded middle. It is easily defeated, and it really just makes you out to look like a man in need of a big bummer.

[Steven]

Steven, the problem with pessimism or optimism is that they are all-or-nothing outlooks on life. We might, might see things going the way you see them going. However, we might see a mixed bag. Indeed, history seems to predict a more muddled and less conclusive outcome of these coming years.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, and the myriad other faiths are interacting with each other more than in any other period of history. That, fills me with hope. Cautious hope, but hope nonetheless.

Steven, stay away from the fallacy of the excluded middle. It is easily defeated, and it really just makes you out to look like a man in need of a big bummer.

you misunderstand why I beleive what I do, and Im not depressed nor am I being pessimistic.

its simply (for me) a combination of repeat history and future prophesy.

and add to that I live an all or nothign type of lifestyle. Trust me I see and experience the end results everyday - its up to me to make the utmost with what I've got to work with. You also need to (not really - do as you wish) recognize that there is a great deal more to my lifestyle as a Judeo Christian than what I type on this board. I really do not beleive that the comment about being easily defeated applies to a man like me.

[Msterbeau]

Is it just me or does it seem to anyone else that this "persecution" of Christians is a big farce? Persecuted? By whom? You mean the fact that there are a few vocal non-Christians threatens you, even though you are in the vast majority of people who believe in god and Jesus in this country?

[ttogreh]

Well, Marc, the thing is, Christianity was for the first three hundred years of its existence, a persecuted and secretive religion. People were publicly tortured to death for professing a belief in the Gospels. That kind of thing tends to influence doctrine towards thoughts of the apocalypse and absolutism. A luke-warm Christian in the early days could get an entire Church killed.

So, those first three hundred years of strife and fear have painted the next 1,700. It is a common theme amongst the Evangelical and Messianic branches of Christianity that NOW is the time, and nothing but absolute devotion to the cause of saving souls will be acceptable.

It is a sentiment that has served the religion well. Almost two billion human beings follow the teachings of Christ.

Unfortunately, there isn't a relief valve to the mindset. An agnostic or atheist expressing doubt in Christ in 21st century middle America is seen as the harbinger of ever more and more persecution. Such is the hazard of the fallacy of the excluded middle...

[Steven]

Is it just me or does it seem to anyone else that this "persecution" of Christians is a big farce? Persecuted? By whom? You mean the fact that there are a few vocal non-Christians threatens you, even though you are in the vast majority of people who believe in god and Jesus in this country?

right now I'm not goign to say that I feel "persecuted". And even if that day comes....I'm not goign to speak of it in terms of resent or remorse. IN fact I'm sort of waiting on it, because Christ told his followers that persecution and rebuke awaits the beleiver of every generation until the end times, and that thigns will grow worse progresively.

Here's thething. on paper the vast majority of the country "beleives" in God, or Jesus......yes on paper thats a fact.

which God Marc?

Which Jesus?

The same one I do?

The same one that motivates me to adopt a particular position and lifestyle?

that - I would debate.

ask those same people in the majority a handful of questions regarding basic biblical tenents, prophesies, covenents, or ask them to give you some patriarichal history and watch what happens...

...you'll get balnk faces and responses that amount to "well I was raised a christian I went toi chruch as a kid and all that stuff and I beleive and stuff but I dont have time to get into reading the bible and I think all religions lead to the same place anyway...as long as yourt a good person"

40 years ago - that would not happen, you'd get a great deal of actual detail and historical depth when it comes to the person of Jesus, and the bible itself. THAT - is gone now, and gone forever, and the incline of "that" is steadily growing.

to exemplify - many of you when having political discussions, ask one another to back your points and do your homework and research the facts and at times have implied that person "A" does not really know much about the party he or she is said to represent. They may be a registerd Democrat - but that does not make them an active and responsible and thereby credible representative....but on paper, they count.

Same thing with this christian majority you speak of Bro. same thing.

now I just recently used Mike Huckabee as a recent example of the anti christian sentiment that is growing in this country. thats not a farce - it was just recent headline news. He was chastized publically for simply saying merry christmas - because it was a pro christian stance and he was accused of deliberately being misleading by inserting deliberate christian symbiology in his commercial almost slight of hand.

lets try somethign else....

...in california - the public school system removed anything remotely associated with christianity - which means Merry Christmas was gone - and it went so far as to not allow children who were pro-beleiver - to use any sort of biblical points of reference and in some schools, to not even allow personal jewelry such as crucifixes or pro-christian concert t shirts. Yet these same school districts - opned their arms to the use of literature from say....."Harry Potter".....which is rooted in occultic practices. Thats a form of a religeopus beleif, the practice of witchcraft. But nobody got suspended for using that maerial, in fact the school purchased large numbers of it. But dont you dare wear a DC Talk t shirt to school or your going to be suspended. Dont you dare gather with yrou christian friends aroudn teh flagpole on yoru time - not class time - and pray or you'll be suspended. I know of a college student at UCLA who's work was rejected on the grounds that she used a biblical foundation to debate a topic - and her work was tossed out as being irrelevent because the Bible was not a proven work of history, which religeous beleifs aside, is lunacy - its an incredibly detailed and archeologically sound collection of history.

here is a link for you to go and review:

http://www.aclj.org/

look for an attorney named Jay Seculow. His cases will give you all the evidence yoru asking for Marc - he's always working many at a time, some under the radar, quite a few covered by the media. Jay has a radio show in california where he details ongoing cases - the evidence is out there Marc - its just unpopular. But....make up your own mind about it.

bear in mind also that i often use other countries modern day persecution as an example to consider. Nobody wants to equate somethign like China with America in terms of religeous persection, thats hard to digets. so take the religeous aspect out and look at our current history with China and tell me your comfy with it.

now in fairness - you used the term threaten and Im not threatened by it.

to be threatend is to be fearful.

and Im not scared. Im not afraid to decalre my beleifs publically in here, or onstage, or among my peers , or among my work group, and Im not afraid to die either Marc, especially when it comes to my faith, like perhaps....a child did in Columbine.

but I do see what i see - I do see the writing on the wall, just like I see our overall personal american freedoms deteriorating in general, as do many of you. I just beleive that Christianity will factor in in the future, when enough young minds are in control of the power balance, and they simply decide its had its run and is no longer good for the people.

thats not a crazy thought at all.

im just not scared of saying it.