Michael Weiner Should Stick With His Real Last Name On The Radio...

[ttogreh]

No, I don't: you are a walking contradiction.

Joshua murdered entire towns with God's blessing, and I know you know this. Innocent Egyptian boys were snatched from this life simply because they were Egyptian boys, by God himself, and I know you know this.

This is tiresome. You have called an entire culture of people a "virus", and have insinuated that truly devout Muslims will kill me where I stand as soon as they are sure they can get away with it.

It's truly embarrassing, the lengths that you are going to, to save face.

You have pretty much discredited yourself with any DGNer who has had the patience and thoughtfulness to read your words, and my response to your words.

Go, ahead, and respond to this with whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact of what you have said, and how you have said it. I have made my case. You... I have gotten in trouble on other forums for describing people like you as "Cartoons"... and besides, that is an ad hominem.

Turkey, Gaf. Gobble gobble gobble.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

You can't do it. You can't actually refute what I have said. So you insult me and everyone on the board who does not think like you.

Thre are nearly 60 countrys with a majority of the populace being Muslim and operating Islamic courts. Turky is the aboration.

Keep beating that dead horse.

[Steven]

Muslims are not a monolith, and you know it.

Turkey is a secular republic.

There is violence, and the call for violence in Christianity and Judaism.

Black and white thinking kills.

I live a life of happiness and positivity. I include people of all walks of life in my social circle. Can you say the same about yourself? I doubt it, if you spend your free time advocating for the destruction of the culture of 1.61 billion human beings.

"the call for violence" in Chrsitianity and Judaism....

once more I'll simply ask you to please expand on this "call" (key word here) and tie in what you seem to be saying is a basic tenant of either faith - are you saying that Christianity and Judaism asks their beleivers (and let's try to stay away from the convenience of "interpretation") to rise up against (insert name of victim here)???

to me, there is a VERY big difference from a historical account of wars waged by a very large nomadic group of tribes seeking to establish their own kingdom and territory (wait....that sounds like the overall history of mankind in general) to an alleged DIRECTIVE (another key word there) - to beleivers in this Messiah based faith system, to go out and kill opposers and or unbeleivers for the sake of the religion - because they are infidels, or unworthy, or in the case of the Hebrews, because they are gentiles. In fact may I ask you is there any account - ANYTHING in that text you draw from showing how a gentile or pagan could be grafted into the family of God both in new and old testment times? Any "facts" there you'd care to cite? And if that provision exists - how then does it line up with your theories on the faith being spread by the sword - by way of design?

In using this technique of randomly taking slices of - just certain peices of - history within a group or timeline - you can say anything you want. You tend to use "facts" that pertain only to specific events and groups of people within a specific timeframe and series of events, but you use them with a dramatic flair of authority (of which I not only reject but suspect ) you make it "almost" seem as if what your saying is true. Only its not.

Thats like summing up a great novel by only drawing from chapter 8 and disregarding the rest - not only is that disrespectful but its also bad technique and it exhibits a flaw in your processing style, one that i would suggest is rather selfish because it allows you to enter into a debate or discussion armed only with that which you have prepared yourself for, and once it moves toward anything that you have not thought out you immediately move for a dismissal (objection your honor).

When you use examples this way, such as the Egyptian account or part of the history of the Hebrews 40 years of wandering, to me thats like saying that all americans are bloodthirsty killers because innocent children have died in the Iraq or Vietnam wars by american soldiers hands with american technology under american orders by american generals who serve and american Commander in Cheif to support American Ideals you big fat american murderors. Its guilt by association - once attatched to a specific time period and movement - but presented in a manner that is only a partial narrative.

thats your style. and yet you warn others on the black and white approach. I think I beleive you - because you seem to be a gray scale specialist .

For example I notice you omit Pharoh's refusal to accept YHWH's REPEATED proposal to release his Hebrew Slaves - slaves for hundreds of years of bitter torment - and I also notice that you omit the fact that in the text you like to draw from - this same Pharoh was shown multiple times the full weight and power of this alleged Hebrew "God" YHWH in various other plagues - PRIOR to the killing of the egyptian firstborn. I notice you fail to introduce the fact that this Pharoh was warned repeatedly each time - BEFORE this supernatural series of events took place and that a choice was presented to him each time and so he chose, each time.

I'll respect your opinion because I must. But I'll also tell you that your methods are not sound, because they are deliberately incomplete. In my opinion you bend context willfully. Your good at it. But that does not make it truthful.

By the way Ive never met Mark but I'd venture to say that he'd welcome my mexican american republican conservative judeo christian monogomous fat ass into his circle and hand me a beer. I'd also venture to say that being a veteran, a father, a husband, a homeowner, etc etc etc....he's very probably seen a few things and met a few people along his path.

He certainly has not discredited himself with me.

So I suppose I'll leave you to categorize me now based on that set of criteria you posted.

I dont even think hes discredited himself with anybody else either- even those he's clashed with in the past.

and to be honest I dont see TTOGREH - or any of us hacks for that matter - being qualified or authorized to recognize anybody as credit worthy, are one of you guys carrying a badge that I dont know about?

[ttogreh]

Steven, the man has called Islam a "virus".

As for the call to violence in Christianity, I doubt I can find anything so blatant and clear-cut as the call for violence in the Koran, I admit as much. However, the crusades were not all that long ago, and they were blatantly about expanding the realm of Christendom.

Judaism's expansion into Canaan by the sword of Joshua, is, indeed, similar to every last tribal struggle for dominance recorded in the last 6,000 years. You are making my argument for me.

Are you actually defending Gaf's thesis, or are you attacking my assertion that Muslims, Christians, Jews, and any other religious group are in fact, groups of humans, not monolithic, and capable of modernity and secular thought?

I am not trying to refute that sharia law is in sixty countries. I am not trying to refute that there is violence and the call to violence in the Koran. I recognize that Turkey is not in synchronicity with the rest of the Muslim world, indeed, that is a big part of my defense of my position.

I am rejecting the idea that there is such a thing as "The Muslims", that Islam is a "virus", and that someone can go around on a message board and get away with saying such things.

I have made my case. Gaf won't change his tune. You, Steven... you are a reasonable person. I have tried my best to be consistent and unambiguous in my message in this thread. If I have left you unconvinced, that is a failure on my part.

Muslims are not a monolith. Muslims are capable of embracing modernity and secular thought. A devout Muslim is not a psychopath waiting to behead me the second I turn my back.

My message is that of tolerance, moderation and hope.

Gaf calls entire cultures "viruses".

REASON FOR EDIT: I used the word "about" in my second sentence rather than "as", essentially completely reversing what I meant to mean.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

doubt I can find anything so blatant and clear-cut about the call for violence in the Koran

"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5)

"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4)

“Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.” 9:123

“Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah” 2:193

"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.” 9:29

"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." 8:12

I am not trying to refute that there is violence and the call to violence in the Koran.

Contradict your self much?

I am rejecting the idea that there is such a thing as "The Muslims", that Islam is a "virus", and that someone can go around on a message board and get away with saying such things.

I have seen you and many other say things like this about Christian's, on this board on a regular basis.

Friedrich Nietzsche is seen in very high regards by many people. He said far worse things about Christians and people of faith than I ever have.

You can't actually refute my position, only express your revolt to it (which I actually understand), so you attack my character. By your own admission, you don't know or understand me. How can you logically attack my character?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

However, the crusades were not all that long ago, and they were blatantly about expanding the realm of Christendom.

The first Crusade started because Muslim's cut off Europe's trades routes to China. The second Crusade was a response to Muslim's invading the Iberian Peninsula. The third Crusade was to take back lands that Muslim's annexed. Muslim's were the first people to use "germ" warfare. At least on major outbreak of bubonic plague has been proven to have been caused intentionally by the Muslim's. (There own court documents talk about it)

[ttogreh]

Yes, war is a two way street.

Gaf, re-read my last post, and get an overwhelming urge to edit your second to last post.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Why? Your edit does not change the two lines I qouted of yours that contridict each other.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

That which I qouted from the Quran, proves that first to be complety wrong.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

The second line I qouted of yours also proves your first statement to be false.

[ttogreh]

You are either illiterate, or are willfully refusing to understand that I was at least trying to say that Christianity's sacred texts more than likely do not have as blatant a call to violence as the Koran.

You are trying to win this with argumentum ad nauseam.

I don't feel ill.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

More personal attacks. And still, thats not what you said, that I quoted, at all.

You're loosing debate points to your own flawed logic and self contradicting statements.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

And still trying to draw parallels between the Bible and the Koran that do not exist, to somehow convince me of my evil ways. hoping that this will somehow get me to feel bad about my views and possible change them. You are missing the fact that if I were to buy your argument, the logic of it could be spun to not stop feeling ill will toward Islam, but to add ill will toward Christianity. It is the path your logic is leading to. Fortunately you present flawed logic so I don;t have to follow that path.

[Steven]

beleive it or not I actually think I should not add one more word to this dang thing.

[ttogreh]

Indeed. I have grown bored. See you on the flip side, Steven.