Removing Piercings At Airport Terminals

[Rev.Reverence]

if i'm fully willing to cooperate with the agents, and i choose to have a pat-down, or a "strip" search, (expose the area in question to visual inspection) why should i have to leave the airport!? if i've paid hundreds of dollars (or more) to fly, and i've cooperated, (or tried to) what right do they have to prevent me from boarding? do they have any proof i'm a threat? do they have any grounds for barring me, when i've communicated my willingness to have the areas in question inspected to prove i'm not a risk? what right do they have to *not let* me participate in these alternatives, when these alternatives will prove my *innocence*?

i call bullshit on those agents...

Oh, yeah,

the agents were totally persecuting her.

BUT, if it was like perscribed in her spiritual tennants to wear a metal hoop in her tit, she would have just had to leave.

I've got a septum ring, it needs tools to remove, or put back.

I also don't fly on planes, I have beads.

[Rayne]

Whats wrong with a little personal responsibility? Everyone knows they aren't supposed to have metal objects, I don't see why they are surprised when they are asked to follow that rule.

Don't they inspect your shoes when they set off the metal detector? Wouldn't it be more of a personal invasion if they "inspected" your body in the same way when it sets off the metal detector?

And if they want further inspection ... no problem. They want to see - fine ... even touch if you NEED to, I'm not opposed to the security measures needed to keep us safe. That's part of the price of having the piercings to begin with ... but I shouldn't have to take them out to make TSA happy when they clearly have different methods DOCUMENTED for their enforcement.

They want to change their documented policies, then that's a different argument.

[Rayne]

Give me liberty!

Give me justice!

Give me security!

Give me equality!

Give it to me NOW or I'll sue!

Bother me in the process and I'll sue!

I want it all, and I want it now, I don't care how as long is it's convenient for ME!

All she's asking for is an apology.

[Rayne]

Taking piercings out IS an issue if they're relatively fresh. I can guarantee you I would not be able to put mine back in at this point if I took them out. I would be severely pissed. And as I've been saying... their policy does not require that to happen. Fuck doing what I'm asked if that's not what the rules are. It's great that it's no big thing for you. For some of us it is.

I've had my nose for three years and my tongue for nearly three years ... they are out for more than 15 minutes, they start to close. Then I bleed getting them back in and they usually get infected if I have them out too long ...

Like I said, if TSA wants to change their policy, that's different, but currently there's many different methods to get screened WITH piercings in place if they set the machines off.

[odims_sphere]

this whole thread reminds me of a quote from A few good men.:

I know deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Everyone wants to feel safe and secure, but they want to dictate to those providing the safety and security how it should be provided.

[CandyQuackenbush]

I seriously can't help but laugh at this thread.

*shrugs shoulders*

Must be real nice to complain about stuff like this. Why don't you guys just be happy? It's not like they are going to throw you in jail for having a nose ring, or a barbell in your ear. All these airlines are doing is making sure YOU are safe.

Are anyof you wondering "Hey, they are probably doing this for my own safety?" No. You are all wondering why it might take you an extra 5 minutes out of your life to wait for you plane that you should be at the airport 2 hours early for anyways.

Do you think that this makes life easier on the Security people? Bet it doesn't. Can you help if you just play by the rules? Yeah, you probably could.

Why sit here and complain about a piece of metal in your body, when you could worry about something important. Like "Am I going to have a safe trip home from work?" Or, "I hope my kids had a good day at school/daycare."

Geez.

[Shade Everdark]

this whole thread reminds me of a quote from A few good men.:

Everyone wants to feel safe and secure, but they want to dictate to those providing the safety and security how it should be provided.

Not to derail the thread, but as American citizens, it is kinda our right to dictate to those providing the safety, in at least a general sense, how it is to be provided. We choose, as a people, to abide by the Geneva conventions (at least ostensibly), and to attempt to conduct ourselves in a humane and decent manner. We frown on unnecessary civilian casualties. We protest and vote out incumbents when we dislike how they shape military and governmental policy. At least in theory.

As for the TSA officers who you claim deserve our respect and cooperation, I have to be honest...they get fuck-all for respect from me.

Soldiers and police officers train for the possibility of putting their lives on the line, in one form or another, to help preserve the public safety and the public well-being. They get a certain measure of respect right off the bat. Those minimum-wage morons (yes, they are, I've traveled enough to see them, at least at Detroit, Green Bay, Chicago, and Greenville, SC) who dictate who can and cannot go through their little security gates have to earn my respect, just like every other schmoe.

Yes, my evidence is anecdotal, I understand that.

[Msterbeau]

this whole thread reminds me of a quote from A few good men.:

Everyone wants to feel safe and secure, but they want to dictate to those providing the safety and security how it should be provided.

Exactly so. Do you think those of us without military experience are so stupid that we can't possibly understand what is or is not in our best interest? Or that we can't take responsibility for accepting a compromise in safety for freedom and privacy? Apparently not.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

and as an American Business, they have the right to refuse your business.

[phee]

this whole thread reminds me of a quote from A few good men.:

Everyone wants to feel safe and secure, but they want to dictate to those providing the safety and security how it should be provided.

I don't think the issue here is safety... I think the issue is whether or not a company is accountable to it's own rules and policies. The thing here is that the company seems to have broken it's own rules, they did not say in the posted policy that anyone has to remove their piercings. They gave the people the choice to do so in what they said...

If you were at a theme park and they had a sign that said "you have to be 4'6" to ride this ride..." And you are 4'8", and you wait in line for two hours just like everyone else, and when you get to the front of the line and they are like "woah, you need to be 5' to ride this ride" I am sorry but that is not fair, especially if they just let 4 other people shorter then you in.

If the company wants to change it's policy in the name of safety.... GOOD, GREAT, it can be inconvenient as all hell to keep us safe. But they need to be clear about what they do and don't allow, so that a person buying a ticket knows what to expect when they walk into the airport.

[phee]

I seriously can't help but laugh at this thread.

*shrugs shoulders*

Must be real nice to complain about stuff like this. Why don't you guys just be happy? It's not like they are going to throw you in jail for having a nose ring, or a barbell in your ear. All these airlines are doing is making sure YOU are safe.

Are anyof you wondering "Hey, they are probably doing this for my own safety?" No. You are all wondering why it might take you an extra 5 minutes out of your life to wait for you plane that you should be at the airport 2 hours early for anyways.

Do you think that this makes life easier on the Security people? Bet it doesn't. Can you help if you just play by the rules? Yeah, you probably could.

Why sit here and complain about a piece of metal in your body, when you could worry about something important. Like "Am I going to have a safe trip home from work?" Or, "I hope my kids had a good day at school/daycare."

Geez.

If you don't like the thread... then don't post, don't attack the people that want to talk about it, and force what you think is important in your world view on them... Some people find some things important, some people don't.

[CandyQuackenbush]

If you don't like the thread... then don't post, don't attack the people that want to talk about it, and force what you think is important in your world view on them... Some people find some things important, some people don't.

Not attacking. I am posting my views. That is what this whole thread is about.

[odims_sphere]

Exactly so. Do you think those of us without military experience are so stupid that we can't possibly understand what is or is not in our best interest? Or that we can't take responsibility for accepting a compromise in safety for freedom and privacy? Apparently not.

No. Those without military experiance know exactly what is in their best intrests, what they don't know is what lenghts must be taken to provide what's in their best intrests. It seems that everyone wants the freedom to fly without someone taking over the plane and crashing it into a building. And why wouldn't they? They should have that freedom. However that comes at a cost, one that most Americans are unwilling to pay.

If I asked you on September 12th, 2001 if you thought people should be allowed on a plane after setting off a metal detector without removing every piece possible you would have said "No Way!"

She didn't take the responsibility to remove the piercings before going through the metal detector. Had she done that very small and simple task it would be a non issue. Instead she tried to get away with it, got caught and now is bitching because they made her take it out.

It's the American way I suppose.

"It's not my fault!"

Like those people who are pulled over for speeding then are mad at the cop like it was their fault for pulling them over.

Everyone knows you must go through a metal detector to board a plane. Common sence dictates that if you want to avoid hassel you don't have anything metal on you. If you choose not to follow that simple guideline IMO you have nothing to bitch about when you are caught and singled out.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I seem to be the only one that has gone to the TSA website and actually read thier whole policy.

[odims_sphere]

I don't think the issue here is safety... I think the issue is whether or not a company is accountable to it's own rules and policies. The thing here is that the company seems to have broken it's own rules, they did not say in the posted policy that anyone has to remove their piercings. They gave the people the choice to do so in what they said...

If you were at a theme park and they had a sign that said "you have to be 4'6" to ride this ride..." And you are 4'8", and you wait in line for two hours just like everyone else, and when you get to the front of the line and they are like "woah, you need to be 5' to ride this ride" I am sorry but that is not fair, especially if they just let 4 other people shorter then you in.

If the company wants to change it's policy in the name of safety.... GOOD, GREAT, it can be inconvenient as all hell to keep us safe. But they need to be clear about what they do and don't allow, so that a person buying a ticket knows what to expect when they walk into the airport.

Are you saying that you don't think she knew that she was going to go through a metal detector before she went on the plane? Or are you saying that she didn't know that the metal in her body might set off said metal detector? I think they've made the rules pretty clear, No unscreened metal allowed.

as recommended from the TSA website:

Dress the part. Metal in your clothing may set off the screening machines. Pack coins, keys, jewelry, belt buckles and other metal items in your carry-on bag. Remember that all shoes must be removed and placed in bins. Passengers also need to remove winter coats, blazers, suit coats and bulky sweaters.

Key word pertaining to this specific debate "Jewelry".

They go out of their way to make things easy for people, People choose not to, then want to bitch when it's a hassel.

The agents didn't break any of their own rules, no where did it say that she must be given a choice. It said

"If you are selected for additional screening, you may ask to remove your body piercing in private as an alternative to a pat-down search," the site says.

Hamlin would have accepted a "pat-down" had it been offered, Allred said.

But she wasn't. It's up to the discretion of the agent to determin the appropriate course of action. In this case they chose removal. They are trained to make that call and we are not. Who are we to say they made the wrong one?

I still don't see what rule they broke.

[Draco1958]

QUOTE

"If you are selected for additional screening, you may ask to remove your body piercing in private as an alternative to a pat-down search," the site says.

Hamlin would have accepted a "pat-down" had it been offered, Allred said.

But she wasn't. It's up to the discretion of the agent to determin the appropriate course of action. In this case they chose removal. They are trained to make that call and we are not. Who are we to say they made the wrong one?

I still don't see what rule they broke.

Let me see if I have this right. According to the rule, "If you are selected for additional screening, you may ask to remove your body piercing in private as an alternative to a pat-down search," the site says.

Hmmm, it says you may ask, not you may be asked which means it was her option, not theirs for removal. And if removal was so difficult that pliers were needed, I would say it was safe to say that the piercings proved to not be a danger. If she did offer to allow a female TSA agent to inspect, she was in the right according the the rule and their making her remove them was wrong, period. I don't know why this got turned into a question of don't we want to be safe in a plane for. Safety was never the issue. The issue is did they overstep by making her remove them after stating she would need pliers to do so. Sounds to me someone went too far. Yes I said it. They did. A patdown would have surficed but they chose a route that was basically unnecessary, removal. Yes I am thankful for airport security, Yes I would submit to a patdown if needed so please don't use the I don't care about security please, that argument is getting silly. Why is it we can complain about many things but if it's about security overstepping things, suddenly it's we don't care, they are underpaid and overworked.and we should deal with it etc. How about they work within their guidelines and show some common sense. But we can't blame them, after all if they didn't make her remove them, she might have ripped them out and used them as a weapon. Yes that is silly but saying she should have removed something that required pliers is just as silly. And if they are trained as they should be, they could have determined she didn't have a weapon hidden under wax on her breasts. I know I will get slammed for this.

[torn asunder]

you know what? this smacks of condescension, and military elitism... i get that, because you're in the military, you have a unique point of view on things like this, but maybe you could try to share that without coming off as sounding like you think we're all idiots who "just don't get it" and "need to get a life"...

there is no reason we shouldn't be debating this topic, and for you to laugh at it and dismiss it like this is kind of rude. yeah, i know you have every right to express your opinion... i do too.

(and before anyone says anything, no, i'm not offended... i could hear some of you taking a big breath to start bitching me out for that - don't bother...)

I seriously can't help but laugh at this thread.

*shrugs shoulders*

Must be real nice to complain about stuff like this. Why don't you guys just be happy? It's not like they are going to throw you in jail for having a nose ring, or a barbell in your ear. All these airlines are doing is making sure YOU are safe.

Are anyof you wondering "Hey, they are probably doing this for my own safety?" No. You are all wondering why it might take you an extra 5 minutes out of your life to wait for you plane that you should be at the airport 2 hours early for anyways.

Do you think that this makes life easier on the Security people? Bet it doesn't. Can you help if you just play by the rules? Yeah, you probably could.

Why sit here and complain about a piece of metal in your body, when you could worry about something important. Like "Am I going to have a safe trip home from work?" Or, "I hope my kids had a good day at school/daycare."

Geez.

[freydis]

Wow.

Ever see what happens when thre *arent* checks on what people do under the guise of providing security?

Those that question, even bitch and moan, keep those making policies watched.

That's a *good* thing.

It might look like people don't like being inconvenienced (and they don't) but on the flipside, it makes sure policies don't go further than they have to.

[Msterbeau]

Wow.

Ever see what happens when thre *arent* checks on what people do under the guise of providing security?

Those that question, even bitch and moan, keep those making policies watched.

That's a *good* thing.

It might look like people don't like being inconvenienced (and they don't) but on the flipside, it makes sure policies don't go further than they have to.

:bravo

[Steven]

Interesting...

I have often noticed that religion seems to get a free pass when it comes to regulations such as this... I know for example shieks are not allowed to remove the turban under any circumstances outside the home...

If I had a peircing and my relgion forbade me to take it off... would they then make special arrangement?

Maybe this is a topic for a new thread... IDK...

I very seriously doubt it.

same goes for your Phee Turban

[Steven]

you know what? this smacks of condescension, and military elitism... i get that, because you're in the military, you have a unique point of view on things like this, but maybe you could try to share that without coming off as sounding like you think we're all idiots who "just don't get it" and "need to get a life"...

there is no reason we shouldn't be debating this topic, and for you to laugh at it and dismiss it like this is kind of rude. yeah, i know you have every right to express your opinion... i do too.

(and before anyone says anything, no, i'm not offended... i could hear some of you taking a big breath to start bitching me out for that - don't bother...)

it doesent sound elite Mike, it sounds like somebody who knows what she's talking about.

in fact I'd add that because you know she's a soldier - you'd actually be less inclined to receive her statements negatively. She's taken heat that you will never have to take - just so that you can have the freedom to call her an elitist.

In fact, you may even want to say "thank you Candy" for having the nutsack to risk everything so that I can set rules in a website.

[Steven]

Not attacking. I am posting my views. That is what this whole thread is about.

double standard alert.

double standard alert

double standard alert.

welcome to my world Candy. Can I get you anything?

[Steven]

I don't think the issue here is safety... I think the issue is whether or not a company is accountable to it's own rules and policies. The thing here is that the company seems to have broken it's own rules, they did not say in the posted policy that anyone has to remove their piercings. They gave the people the choice to do so in what they said...

If you were at a theme park and they had a sign that said "you have to be 4'6" to ride this ride..." And you are 4'8", and you wait in line for two hours just like everyone else, and when you get to the front of the line and they are like "woah, you need to be 5' to ride this ride" I am sorry but that is not fair, especially if they just let 4 other people shorter then you in.

If the company wants to change it's policy in the name of safety.... GOOD, GREAT, it can be inconvenient as all hell to keep us safe. But they need to be clear about what they do and don't allow, so that a person buying a ticket knows what to expect when they walk into the airport.

Dude EVERY issue regarding TSA is one of safety - let's not throw the baby out with the nipple ring. In fact every opposing argument that is interestingly agreed upon by all of us who are prior military or have worked contracted national secrutiy or both.

this sounds snotty but its not meant to be:

I hear all the nay sayers giveing a message that sounds like "but its not fair...."

and our basic response is: neither is death, make a choice.

and Marc - your the coolest - but I definately DO beleive there are things that you are missing - specifically because you have never experienced certain things. it has nothgin to do with common sense and no one is tryign to say that - but I do beleive that certain thigns are not as "real" to you in middle income americana as a civilian.

[Steven]

this whole thread reminds me of a quote from A few good men.:

Everyone wants to feel safe and secure, but they want to dictate to those providing the safety and security how it should be provided.

and most of those dictating want to do it from the secruity of fort livingroom.

[phee]

Wow.

Ever see what happens when thre *arent* checks on what people do under the guise of providing security?

Those that question, even bitch and moan, keep those making policies watched.

That's a *good* thing.

It might look like people don't like being inconvenienced (and they don't) but on the flipside, it makes sure policies don't go further than they have to.

I agree... people whining are what keep these things in check...

If no one whines then things get out of hand, and nothing is brought to the attention, guess what happens? (I don't think I need to explain)

And one other thing... all that she is asking for is an apology for the company breaking it's rules, she is not asking for money, she is not asking for them to not search people, she is asking for them to stick with their guidelines... it's not about securety.