Removing Piercings At Airport Terminals

[Steven]

I agree... people whining are what keep these things in check...

If no one whines then things get out of hand, and nothing is brought to the attention, guess what happens? (I don't think I need to explain)

And one other thing... all that she is asking for is an apology for the company breaking it's rules, she is not asking for money, she is not asking for them to not search people, she is asking for them to stick with their guidelines... it's not about securety.

well....all this has yet to be seen as it progresses.

Unfortunately I still dont buy it - and all Gloria wants is for her client to get an apology as well? How are Gloria's services going to be paid for by the way? Her investment of time in this client means that she's not ambulance chasing somewhere else ($$$)...... how will that gap be filled?

Do you guys remember when Gloria stood up in front of the media decalring that somebdoy had to stand for those poor children Michael Jackson molested?

She was gogin to be their champion.

then she just sorta.............dissappeared and that was the last you heard of her on that issue. I think her accountant got a hold of her.

[phee]

well....all this has yet to be seen as it progresses.

Unfortunately I still dont buy it - and all Gloria wants is for her client to get an apology as well? How are Gloria's services going to be paid for by the way? Her investment of time in this client means that she's not ambulance chasing somewhere else ($$$)...... how will that gap be filled?

Do you guys remember when Gloria stood up in front of the media decalring that somebdoy had to stand for those poor children Michael Jackson molested?

She was gogin to be their champion.

then she just sorta.............dissappeared and that was the last you heard of her on that issue. I think her accountant got a hold of her.

While it is possible she is after money.... I think the underlying issue here is accountability... I personally have no issue with TSA having a policy of manditory removal of body jewelry.... If they think it will keep people safer. I just want them to state that they do, and not laugh at people and change the rules on the fly. I don't think it is that unreasonable, for them to go by the rules they wrote, or clarify them if need be.

[Rayne]

you know what? this smacks of condescension, and military elitism... i get that, because you're in the military, you have a unique point of view on things like this, but maybe you could try to share that without coming off as sounding like you think we're all idiots who "just don't get it" and "need to get a life"...

there is no reason we shouldn't be debating this topic, and for you to laugh at it and dismiss it like this is kind of rude. yeah, i know you have every right to express your opinion... i do too.

(and before anyone says anything, no, i'm not offended... i could hear some of you taking a big breath to start bitching me out for that - don't bother...)

I completely agree with you.

Perhaps she has valid points buried under all the "you all don't know jack" attitude ... but instead ... no one has any right to tell me to "get a life".

it doesent sound elite Mike, it sounds like somebody who knows what she's talking about.

in fact I'd add that because you know she's a soldier - you'd actually be less inclined to receive her statements negatively. She's taken heat that you will never have to take - just so that you can have the freedom to call her an elitist.

In fact, you may even want to say "thank you Candy" for having the nutsack to risk everything so that I can set rules in a website.

It sounds like someone who needs to take a course in effective communication. I don't care what the person's background. I'm sorry, because she's a soldier does not dismiss the abrasiveness of what was said.

I'm can't even post in this thread anymore.

*walks away*

[Msterbeau]

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The Transportation Security Administration said it will change they way its officers search passengers with body piercings after a Texas woman complained she was forced to remove a nipple ring with pliers in order to board an airplane.

Mandi Hamlin, 37, had demanded an apology and her Los Angeles-based attorney sent a letter to the TSA this week requesting a civil rights investigation.

Hamlin said she was trying to board a flight from Lubbock to Dallas on Feb. 24 when she was scanned by a TSA agent after passing through a larger metal detector without problems.

The female TSA agent used a handheld detector that beeped when it passed in front of Hamlin's chest, the Dallas-area resident said.

Hamlin said she told the woman she was wearing nipple piercings. The agent then called over her male colleagues, one of whom said she would have to remove the jewelry, Hamlin said.

Hamlin said she could not remove them and asked whether she could instead display her pierced breasts in private to the female agent. But several other male officers told her she could not board her flight until the jewelry was out, she said.

Hamlin was taken behind a curtain and managed to remove one bar-shaped piercing but had trouble with the second, a ring. She said the officer gave her pliers to remove the ring, a process which caused a physical pain.

The TSA said Friday in a statement on its Web site that the officers properly followed procedures, but that the procedures must change. In the future passengers can either allow a visual inspection of their piercings, or remove them, the agency said.

The statement stopped short of apologizing to Hamlin.

"TSA acknowledges that our procedures caused difficulty for the passenger involved and regrets the situation in which she found herself," the agency said in a statement. "We appreciate her raising awareness on this issue and we are changing the procedures to ensure that this does not happen again."

Hamlin's attorney said she accepted the TSA statement as an apology, and commended the agency for taking quick action. The policy change is "an achievement for the protection of passengers' civil rights while meeting the security goals of the TSA," Gloria Allred said.

Personally, I still think they did NOT follow their own rules... and that the rule as written is already acceptable.

Oh well.. It's over. Buh bye.

[freydis]

well....all this has yet to be seen as it progresses.

Unfortunately I still dont buy it - and all Gloria wants is for her client to get an apology as well? How are Gloria's services going to be paid for by the way? Her investment of time in this client means that she's not ambulance chasing somewhere else ($$$)...... how will that gap be filled?

Do you guys remember when Gloria stood up in front of the media decalring that somebdoy had to stand for those poor children Michael Jackson molested?

She was gogin to be their champion.

then she just sorta.............dissappeared and that was the last you heard of her on that issue. I think her accountant got a hold of her.

For people like Gloria Allred, getting in the news is payment enough. Seen her face in the news *lately*? No. Camera time!

For these kinds of lawyers, getting in the news, being seen, it's better than money spent on a yellowbook listing. For all you know, she might not be getting paid a cent. Free publicity!

[freydis]

I completely agree with you.

Perhaps she has valid points buried under all the "you all don't know jack" attitude ... but instead ... no one has any right to tell me to "get a life".

It sounds like someone who needs to take a course in effective communication. I don't care what the person's background. I'm sorry, because she's a soldier does not dismiss the abrasiveness of what was said.

I'm can't even post in this thread anymore.

*walks away*

Agreed, completely.

And seriously, her and Odims are the only people I've seen attitudes like this come from. I know a lot of military folks who still remember what civilian life is like, and don't assume that other people can't express an opinion on security intelligently just because they havent served.

[Steven]

I completely agree with you.

Perhaps she has valid points buried under all the "you all don't know jack" attitude ... but instead ... no one has any right to tell me to "get a life".

It sounds like someone who needs to take a course in effective communication. I don't care what the person's background. I'm sorry, because she's a soldier does not dismiss the abrasiveness of what was said.

I'm can't even post in this thread anymore.

*walks away*

yuo know, although in theory I understand yoru rancor - what Candy did was nothign more than what everybody in this website does when they reach a passionate perspective they are arguing. SHe never siad "get a life asshole".....it was not as if she turned the air blue within earshot. You guys are kind of amazing in your ability to become offended and even more amazing in your ability to not take a good look at somebody who has not only been there, but has been personally affected by IED's. So she told you to get a life. yes she does have that right -and you have the right to let it go or rebuke her.

how effective of a communicator would any of you be - after you;ve done a couple of tours in Iraq and got hit in the field?

[Steven]

While it is possible she is after money.... I think the underlying issue here is accountability... I personally have no issue with TSA having a policy of manditory removal of body jewelry.... If they think it will keep people safer. I just want them to state that they do, and not laugh at people and change the rules on the fly. I don't think it is that unreasonable, for them to go by the rules they wrote, or clarify them if need be.

TSA does not have a policy of abuse.

If a couple of assholes were assholes - there you go.

[phee]

yuo know, although in theory I understand yoru rancor - what Candy did was nothign more than what everybody in this website does when they reach a passionate perspective they are arguing. SHe never siad "get a life asshole".....it was not as if she turned the air blue within earshot. You guys are kind of amazing in your ability to become offended and even more amazing in your ability to not take a good look at somebody who has not only been there, but has been personally affected by IED's. So she told you to get a life. yes she does have that right -and you have the right to let it go or rebuke her.

how effective of a communicator would any of you be - after you;ve done a couple of tours in Iraq and got hit in the field?

Steven...

You often post about how your life experiences and knowledge of the world seem to "trump" other peoples opinions.

Let me ask you, do you have any idea what Rayne's life experiences and knowledge is? No... And yet you speak as if you do.

Being in the army commands respect. It does not give someone elevated rights to speak down on others and be as condescending as they please to others.

You mentioned in another thread to me once that you assumed that I assumed that you were lying. I actually don't think you are lying at all. But no one's experience in life gives them the right to treat others like crap.

If you care, I went to college and I majored in communication, this is the first time I have ever brought this up here (I think), but this does not give me the right to declare that I am better then others in that field, in fact if anything it has taught me to to be more respectful of others and try to improve.

As you have said, everybody makes judgments of others. What surprises me is how comfortable you are in the role of handing out these judgments, if you have experienced all that you say you have, I would have hoped that this may have given you more respect for others... not less.

And this has nothing to do with Iraq and IED's this is about a couple of assholes in an airport.

If I ever go through hell (and maybe I have, you wouldn't know)... it does not give me the right talk down on others.

[pharoh]

and most of those dictating want to do it from the secruity of fort livingroom.

Of course dude it's easier to point a finger and say you should do this when they never had to do it to begin with.

I think this issue hits home with a few people that have a military background and are very passionate about it. when people are passionate it comes off wrong to other people.

Also comming from a military family people I know for a fact that they have all been judged and criticized by civilians. My father was a perfect example...field artillery in vietnam....he came back to being called a baby killer and other vile shit. There are just some things people won't get or understand other's perspective's because of expieriences....People should just be alittle more tolerant on both ends.

[Rev.Reverence]

Of course dude it's easier to point a finger and say you should do this when they never had to do it to begin with.

I think this issue hits home with a few people that have a military background and are very passionate about it. when people are passionate it comes off wrong to other people.

...People should just be alittle more tolerant on both ends.

YAY... Tolerance... now with the power to FURTHER humanity....

Rock-it, Pharoh

[Steven]

Steven...

You often post about how your life experiences and knowledge of the world seem to "trump" other peoples opinions.

Let me ask you, do you have any idea what Rayne's life experiences and knowledge is? No... And yet you speak as if you do.

Being in the army commands respect. It does not give someone elevated rights to speak down on others and be as condescending as they please to others.

You mentioned in another thread to me once that you assumed that I assumed that you were lying. I actually don't think you are lying at all. But no one's experience in life gives them the right to treat others like crap.

If you care, I went to college and I majored in communication, this is the first time I have ever brought this up here (I think), but this does not give me the right to declare that I am better then others in that field, in fact if anything it has taught me to to be more respectful of others and try to improve.

As you have said, everybody makes judgments of others. What surprises me is how comfortable you are in the role of handing out these judgments, if you have experienced all that you say you have, I would have hoped that this may have given you more respect for others... not less.

And this has nothing to do with Iraq and IED's this is about a couple of assholes in an airport.

If I ever go through hell (and maybe I have, you wouldn't know)... it does not give me the right talk down on others.

this was a good post. let's work it a little while because although the thread subject is "sorta" closed - the offshoot direction its going in can actually (hopefully) take a healthy turn....

OK....lets start with the trump card.

First - I shall have to give this some thought. I say that because in my mind - what I'm often doing is arguing for at least a slice - some "additional" creedence to an end result that often gets overlooked. I see your point here Phee and its a fair point - I'm actually cool with that. But the difficulty is - that because of "experience" that may shed some additional light on a subject - we ALL have to make decisions on what's a measurable consideration or not. thats tough to make universal.

and that my friend - is THE very difficult process inside of DGN. I'm not going on a nut here. I'm just saying that it is what it is. And more often someone like me (Candy and now Donnie are getting the rare priviledge now) is arguing against a whole bunch of "you's". I honestly dont know what the answer is to that dillema.

I do not know what Rayne's life experiences are.

Fair statement.

I have "assumed" some things and of course I know thats a big bozo no no but unless rayne gives me something personal ....I'm only left to assume inside of a passionate discussion. And in that discussion - I felt no clues that told me Rayne has taken up arms, served in a forward area, or had a civilian job that put her in Direct Contact with IED's or potential IED's. I have spoken as if I know this about her - you are right - and so maybe I'm wrong here Phee. But I really don't know what else to do about it - Rayne has given me little to work with. And here's the difficulty yet again - I HAVE (as has Donnie and Candy) taken up arms. And I HAVE worked as a civilian bomb dog contractor in a few states. So again....some of that personal perspective will come thru. I DONT know what its like to serve in a forward area though - Donnie and Candy know, my tour never led me there. I DO know however - what its like to have to go directly - directly up to something suspected of being an explosive device and having to clear it with a bomb dog, wondering how sensitive it is, and wondering who's nearby that is stupid enough to say.....speak on a cell phone while I'm doing it. That shit - is very scary, because you realize that at any moment - you can die - period. And because it is scary and has touched me personally.....well, it gets in there Phee. I dont really know that that is either right or wrong.

in terms of all of this alledged condescension.........I can't help it Phee - I truly beleive that this is a very thin margin and argument. I've said way more agressive shit than Candy or Donnie said in this thread. And I think (and bear in mind that BOTH Candy and Donnie have rebuked me for my style of delivery) what they did is normal, and even healthy given where they have been. And (offensiveness alert) i also think that most of you would not fair as well as they have - and that none of you critics would do any better. That sounds shitty but its not meant to be. i simply believe they have been where most of you have not and I'm not asking for respect for them here - I'm asking for consideration of the merit of their TOTAL experience - especially the human side. you guys sound like your saying "your back in the civilian world now - adjust to us" and thats not how it works - its unrealistic in every situation.

on the charge of my lieing and the ka Ka slinging: First - I thought you thought I was a liar. If you say you dont think that i am not only appreciative but i'm also thankful Also YES - nobody should treat others like crap. I have treated some of you like crap. Some of you - have likewise treated me like crap. Some of you authoratatively moderate and thus control the ebb and flow of crap, while tossing some of your own crap. some of you invent crap. some of us polish crap like we think we can buff it into a brown diamond. We're people, people. Overall I dont think anybody is going to walk away from this website and walk straight into therapy because of it. YES Phee there are times when we could ALL do better. But just because someone may follow the rules - does not in ANY way mean they too are not condecending and controlling and dismissive. I can personally charge both You and I with those three sins - we just have different styles. I forgive you. Forgive me. and Candy, and Donnie and let's get a pizza and move on.

OK for your college degree and major - I DO respect that, and i admire educated people, because I am not, and i DO feel that it allows you a certain degree of insight that a regular Joe like me has to struggle for to grasp at or understand. If you want to use it Phee thats your right and if it helps you make or sustain or enlighten a point then use it man - use whatever you have in your toolbox of life tools to assist you -I encourage that. I may counter you and ask you if you're working in the communications field - or how much experience beyond the classroom you have - but you still have every opportunity to present a case in the way that you feel best should be managed. But if you DONT feel its a worthwhile approach......bear in mind that that is your decision based on your life and personality. Other people don't work the same way. Neither approach is "right".....they are just human behaviours.

In terms of communication "styles".... this one is up for grabs.

I understand your point about how your education has taught you to be more understanding and respectful.

I also think there are times when you dont understand the point or context at all and you are snidefully disrespectful.

Allright fine, big deal. Ditto for me. Although Im not that snide - my style is prolly more upfront Asshole. I accept this and I work on it too. regardless of our stylistic differences....somehow the work gets done. Certain people respond to you. certain people respond to me. I am also a communicator by nature. its all ok.

On being comfortable on handing out judgements: First off - i am very comfortable in my own skin and beleive that I know who, what, and why i am and where I'm going. Alot of that comes thru in my bluntness. I also beelive that time is limited and things change quickly and so you'd best say what you need to say while the opportune time is available. Thats just the way i'm hardwired Phee. "Judgement" to me - is simply a perspective or decision on the subject at hand, and so yes I throw judgement out ther 18 times a day - as do you all. I do not feel any sort of obligation when it comes to judgement and how it is to be revered or feared or avoided....thats a framework that you work within - but I dont. And not because Im better than you - but because I think thats a false system of beleif and a very limited approach to living your life. At least your work is easy when it comes to me Phee - you never have to read between the lines or try to guess how I feel.

On the flipside - if I ever hug you, or shake your hand and smile at you, or laugh with you, tip a beer with you, walk alongside you.....again no guesswork there. I would never do any of those things unless I felt it and desired to do so because I felt you had value. And i've done alot of those things, with alot of you that I "judge".

On IED's and assholes (sounds like a song title):

first off - were all going to choose a foundational perspective.

I beleive it has EVERYTHING to do with IED's - thats the main thing TSA is tasked to find.

But I have aligned myself with Donnie and Candy - because my life (and theirs) has changed my perspective from a common everyday civilian's perspective to a former Soldier's and Civilian Homeland defense contractor's perspective. I can't help it Phee, yam what I yam. and neither can you, and its all ok. But consider one thing if you will - just one:

neither Donnie, nor Candy, nor myself - have tried to tell you what is and is not ok to say or how to say it, we just opposed the point of view of the masses. That comes from three people of different generations - who beleive in the freedom of self expression enough to give ourselves away for it.

good day to you sir

Steven

Note: edited (and I never do this shit) for spelling

[odims_sphere]

Perhaps this will sound like military elitism as well, but who cares, it's true.

It's my opinion that this topic has reached an impass. So those who have had the guts to stand up and swear an oath to protect and defend will just have to go back to doing just that despite all the bitching, whining and crying. It's what we volunteered for.

The fact remains that we all live in the most free, safest, and most secure nation in the world because of people doing their jobs, just as those agents did. And it's because of people just like those agents, and the men and women all over the world fighting and dying, that we have the right to bitch.

And for all of you who have expressed that you feel that woman was wronged and the agents were out of line I'll respectfully disagree with you from now until eternity, however I'll fight and die to protect your right to say it.

If that's me being a military elitist than so be it.

[CandyQuackenbush]

you know what? this smacks of condescension, and military elitism... i get that, because you're in the military, you have a unique point of view on things like this, but maybe you could try to share that without coming off as sounding like you think we're all idiots who "just don't get it" and "need to get a life"...

there is no reason we shouldn't be debating this topic, and for you to laugh at it and dismiss it like this is kind of rude. yeah, i know you have every right to express your opinion... i do too.

(and before anyone says anything, no, i'm not offended... i could hear some of you taking a big breath to start bitching me out for that - don't bother...)

Torn,

Odims, Para Bellum, KBK and myself will always take things that involve things like this seriously. How can we not?

We are the ones that want to protect and chose to protect all of you. So how is it that when we see people complaining and calling security guards assholes, we can't get protective about it? In no way am I bitching at you for this, and I can't believe that you would think that either.

If you read, I simply state that there are more important things in life to worry about than a damn piercing. You want to talk about rude, you hardly know me, and you are placing judgment on me too. So how is me debaiting in this thread any different then anyone else?

It baffles my mind that one stinking peice of metal cause this epic thread.

Calling a security guard at an airport an asshole for doing his/her job is *and this is IMO* the rudest thing I ever heard.

[freydis]

There's doing your job, and there's doing your job *well*.

When you are an agent who must deal with the public, you really need proper etiquette for dealing with the public.

You guys are soldiers. Not people dealing with security in a *commercial, civilian* situation. Customer service and etiquette don't really figure into your situation.

With TSA, it *does*. If you can't refrain from snickering at someone who is crying from the pain of removing their nipple piercings *because you requested them to*, you don't belong in your job. Front line TSA people have to deal with the public, and need to comport themselves accordingly.

Sorry, I call an asshat an asshat.

If you can't handle dealing with the public like an adult ('you' meaning the TSA agents), you don't belong front line, dealing with the public. Go be a baggage inspector.

[Steven]

There's doing your job, and there's doing your job *well*.

When you are an agent who must deal with the public, you really need proper etiquette for dealing with the public.

You guys are soldiers. Not people dealing with security in a *commercial, civilian* situation. Customer service and etiquette don't really figure into your situation.

With TSA, it *does*. If you can't refrain from snickering at someone who is crying from the pain of removing their nipple piercings *because you requested them to*, you don't belong in your job. Front line TSA people have to deal with the public, and need to comport themselves accordingly.

Sorry, I call an asshat an asshat.

If you can't handle dealing with the public like an adult ('you' meaning the TSA agents), you don't belong front line, dealing with the public. Go be a baggage inspector.

I have been both a soldier AND a civilian who dealt with security and explosive detection in a civilian format who has had direct contact with the public and has been constantly briefed on the importance of good PR and representation.

and i will tell you that its a thankless no win situation.

and that people will be stupid.

I have had professionals - Detroit Police Officers to be specific - use cell phones to talk to dispatch during an alerted vehicle at the IRS building in detroit right next to the old MGM building. Cell phones set off bombs.

I've had executives complain that my Dog tried to attack them when they deliberately came up to it to pet it after being warned not to touch the dog or even come near it.

these are examples of educated professionals without a clue.

you cannot remove the human element from either side of the equasion.

[freydis]

The "human element" as you put it, is the problem.

She felt like she was mistreated. By her description, she *was*. Her situation was treated flippantly, and someone *laughed* at her discomfort. It seems pretty clear, here. Had no one snickered or given her grief, would we be hearing about it? Likely not.

[Steven]

The "human element" as you put it, is the problem.

She felt like she was mistreated. By her description, she *was*. Her situation was treated flippantly, and someone *laughed* at her discomfort. It seems pretty clear, here. Had no one snickered or given her grief, would we be hearing about it? Likely not.

I know.

I understand this (although I also suspect some Gloria Allred PR twists of the "truth").

But many statements have been made so far, that I can't get behind.

Especially those statments that seem to allude to how simple and clear cut everything is....

[GOREgeouslyDecorated]

this confuses me 'cos A.) I have been through many airports and never had a problem, B.) they are generally made a surgical grade steele which I didn't think would set off an alarm

either way, sux to be her

[phee]

The odd part about this whole thing is that I don't actually disagree with the statements that people are making. It seems to be the problem that people are having two separate arguments... One is about TSA ad if they broke their rules, the other argument is the sacrifices that people are willing to make for the sake of safety.

I feel that TSA broke their stated rules... BUT... I also have no problem if they make people remove jewelry before boarding (as long as thats what their rules say ahead of time).

I want to make one other thing clear here as well. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Candy, Odims, and Steven... as well as any other DGNrs who are in the army or were in the army. The only problem I have has nothing to do with military, it is simply about communication...

Odims rocks... and I really have no issue with him at all.

[CandyQuackenbush]

I completely agree with you.

Perhaps she has valid points buried under all the "you all don't know jack" attitude ... but instead ... no one has any right to tell me to "get a life".

It sounds like someone who needs to take a course in effective communication. I don't care what the person's background. I'm sorry, because she's a soldier does not dismiss the abrasiveness of what was said.

I'm can't even post in this thread anymore.

*walks away*

Where did I say "get a life"? I didn't. I said that there are more important things to worry about.

[freydis]

update:

In the future passengers can either allow a visual inspection of their piercings, or remove them, the agency said.

and as for what she'd wanted:

"TSA acknowledges that our procedures caused difficulty for the passenger involved and regrets the situation in which she found herself," the agency said in a statement. "We appreciate her raising awareness on this issue and we are changing the procedures to ensure that this does not happen again."

Hamlin's attorney said she accepted the TSA statement as an apology, and commended the agency for taking quick action. The policy change is "an achievement for the protection of passengers' civil rights while meeting the security goals of the TSA," Gloria Allred said.

[odims_sphere]

The TSA said Friday in a statement on its Web site that the officers properly followed procedures, but that the procedures must change. In the future passengers can either allow a visual inspection of their piercings, or remove them, the agency said.

So in short those "assholes" and "asshats" followed procedures, and never violated their own policy as was discussed earlier.

[Msterbeau]

So in short those "assholes" and "asshats" followed procedures, and never violated their own policy as was discussed earlier.

See... I don't get this. Their so-called "revised" procedure sounds exactly like what already exists. Based on the woman's testimony, they didn't follow that. It's like they think no one has read the existing policy. Whatever...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Not exactly. The original wording was a bit more vague. Actually, a lot more vague. Depending on your mood when you read it.. it said different things... it was poorly worded. The new wording gives the choice over to passenger to a visual inspection or removal and does it in plain English.