Religious Freedom In Waterford, Mi?

[Steven]

If the story never mentioned a thing about Christianity, my opinion would be the same. The church got a little too loud.

ah... but the story DID mention something about that "sort of music" being innapropriate....

[Msterbeau]

and there is that whole "Congress shall make no law..."

Religion doesn't get to trump everything. Are you telling me that if you lived across form the Church of Explosives, you wouldn't complain if they were blowing things up every Saturday night and Sunday morning because they were exercising their freedom of religion?

As much as I like explosives... I wouldn't tolerate that noise either.

[Steven]

It has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with disturbing the peace. You guys make every fucking slight against Christians into a cause for martyrdom. Enough already.

by the way..... relax. Its a good topic for discussion

[Msterbeau]

ah... but the story DID mention something about that "sort of music" being innapropriate....

The sort of music they were referring to is the loud and disruptive kind.

[Steven]

Religion doesn't get to trump everything. Are you telling me that if you lived across form the Church of Explosives, you wouldn't complain if they were blowing things up every Saturday night and Sunday morning because they were exercising their freedom of religion?

As much as I like explosives... I wouldn't tolerate that noise either.

how bout we avoid the uber extreme cross examples and go with regular everyday stuff.

for instance I mentioned those loud rock and roll bars on Ford Road where the neighbors back yards butt up against them.....

[Steven]

The sort of music they were referring to is the loud and disruptive kind.

ahhhh then its a matter of appropriate TASTE then....or personal preferance by teh authroitative powers that be.....

[Steven]

ah... but the story DID mention something about that "sort of music" being innapropriate....

im actually quoting myself....because I forgot to add that it was alluded that "innapropriate" referred to the style of music within a religeous format.....loud rock and roll being innapropriate or unnaceptable.......

something worth thinking about???

[Msterbeau]

ahhhh then its a matter of appropriate TASTE then....or personal preferance by teh authroitative powers that be.....

Well... Any kind of music can be played loudly enough to be disruptive. Volume doesn't equate to style.

[Steven]

Well... Any kind of music can be played loudly enough to be disruptive. Volume doesn't equate to style.

yes i agree....and yet style definately equates to rancor......which I personally suspect is really the core of this issue....I smell the smell of the morality police....

[Msterbeau]

im actually quoting myself....because I forgot to add that it was alluded that "innapropriate" referred to the style of music within a religeous format.....loud rock and roll being innapropriate or unnaceptable.......

something worth thinking about???

Electric guitars and drums are always going to be more disruptive then a string quartet or a simple piano.

Now... If this had happened on a Saturday night, I'd bet there would be a lot less issue. Sunday morning... people want to sleep in.

And the point about living next to a church is a good one, although that can depend on who was there first. The houses or the church. There's a race track in Clarkston called Waterford Hills. That track has been there since the 50's. Barely any houses out there at the time. As people moved in.. and realized there's a track there.. they started to complain. But... why didn't they do their homework and figure that out first? So... A little of that should apply too.

[Shade Everdark]

The whole affair seems rather simple, to me.

If, as the article claims, the police have received numerous written complaints about the noise from the church, the police have every right to investigate a bit, so whether they were really being disruptive.

The religious (martyr) issue aside, it appears a pretty open-and-shut noise dispute.

[Msterbeau]

yes i agree....and yet style definately equates to rancor......which I personally suspect is really the core of this issue....I smell the smell of the morality police....

How can it be the morality police if it's a church (Nominally a very moral place, right?) being persecuted? :-)

[torn asunder]

It has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with disturbing the peace. You guys make every fucking slight against Christians into a cause for martyrdom. Enough already.

x2

[Steven]

x2

we've been waiting for you Michael......

[torn asunder]

we've been waiting for you Michael......

yes, i'm well aware that you're intentionally trying to antagonize me.

[Steven]

How can it be the morality police if it's a church (Nominally a very moral place, right?) being persecuted? :-)

Because I dont think this church is being persecuted from the outside, I think its being persecuted from within.

No - not from within that specific chruch - but from within a faction of traditional old school religiosity.

I think there are a few people in Waterford who know a few people.

And the one spearheading this thing....is quite probably a Christian....a much more "traditionalist" type of Christian....as are the "complainers" (of whom I'd be curious to see how many actually step forward into the public eye to test the mettle of their true convictions as opposed to letting the badges take the heat).

I dont think this is really about noise. Not at all.

I think its about loud ROCK music being used in a church format....ie the "innapropriateness" of the music in question, and that the charge of "distrubing the police" is a faux sheild for expressive control.

there goes the martyr theory boyz - but that's just me, and i'm strange like that. (plus I've seen this kind of thign happen before)

[Msterbeau]

Because I dont think this church is being persecuted from the outside, I think its being persecuted from within.

No - not from within that specific chruch - but from within a faction of traditional old school religiosity.

I think there are a few people in Waterford who know a few people.

And the one spearheading this thing....is quite probably a Christian....a much more "traditionalist" type of Christian....as are the "complainers" (of whom I'd be curious to see how many actually step forward into the public eye to test the mettle of their true convictions as opposed to letting the badges take the heat).

I dont think this is really about noise. Not at all.

I think its about loud ROCK music being used in a church format....ie the "innapropriateness" of the music in question, and that the charge of "distrubing the police" is a faux sheild for expressive control.

there goes the martyr theory boyz - but that's just me, and i'm strange like that. (plus I've seen this kind of thign happen before)

I think you're stretching mighty far with your theory. If you said you had some first-hand knowledge, based on conversations with those locals I might grant you leway in that direction, but to think it based on nothing more then the story.....

[phee]

It has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with disturbing the peace. You guys make every fucking slight against Christians into a cause for martyrdom. Enough already.

x3

Complaints about noise are complaints about noise... whether the noise be holy or not.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

the cops cant arrest anyone in the Church unles the Church allows them to.

Just tell me this.. why did the Prosecutor go out on a noise complaint?

Why does the Church claim to have a recording of the Prosecuter making remarks that the rock they wre playing was not Christian music.?

[Msterbeau]

the cops cant arrest anyone in the Church unles the Church allows them to.

That's not correct. If they have probable cause or a warrant they most certainly can. From what I read the rules can be a little different from place to place but this is generally true. Also, police departments are usually reluctant to do this sort of thing because of the bad press.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

And if the priest/Minister allows it. Sanctuary.

They cant.

[Msterbeau]

And if the priest/Minister allows it. Sanctuary.

They cant.

You're mistaken. They don't, not can't. Sanctuary is not a formal law of any sort. It's an old custom that people/churches occasionally use (Largely with respect to illegal immigrants and deportation) in modern times. If police really wanted to arrest someone in a church, there's nothing, not even the priest, that can stop it.

Show us evidence or quit wasting our time.

[Rev.Reverence]

Well...

I went to their web site and without a doubt in my mind, they put a lot of EVERYTHING into their music (heart, soul...I mean, the drum kit has it's own tiny sound booth), and therefore, in THIS fine country MUST be protected.

I think to interrupt ANY Holy Ritual, is a blaspheme. (even if they call themselves 'Christ like')

It has happened to me, on many occasions, (I use the night stars for a cathedral,)

and trust me, we were being quiet.

[Steven]

I think you're stretching mighty far with your theory. If you said you had some first-hand knowledge, based on conversations with those locals I might grant you leway in that direction, but to think it based on nothing more then the story.....

I think your suspsicion is genuine, but I still think that's what's going on. and I have no evidence, just a hunch from the story-none of us do at this point.

One thing Ive notived in Michigan as opposed to Cali - is that Michigan is still much more divided in terms of "style" or what is and is not appropriate for churches to do.

[Steven]

x3

Complaints about noise are complaints about noise... whether the noise be holy or not.

I've been waiting for you Phee.......(Phee passes popcorn to Torn)