Religious Freedom In Waterford, Mi?

[torn asunder]

Why is does it have to be to win Torn, there is no doubt that there are people here that just don't mesh well....I think we can both agree on that right? And we all have our "stubborn moments" as well, but that really is irrellevant. This thread was not antagonistic other than a comment that was left in the beginning of the thread.

As for my "Jumping on the thread because I felt left out and wanted to stir the pot" I post when I can, I don't have time like I used to, I try to key in when I can (and I have started posting more frequently thank you). and while I had some time to burn while I imaged this computer at work, I jumped on the thread and seen what you two posted. I am tired of the favortism that the mods get shit like this is posted and nobody gets put in check over it. Constructive? Probably not.....do I care? Not really. Take shots at me if you want dude, but it doesn't bother me a bit.

favoritism? there's a reason we were chosen as mods - are you saying troy doesn't know what he's doing?

and yes, i will accept that i mis-spoke when i said "win" - what i meant to communicate was "impossible to hold an open-minded conversation where people can admit to something like "i can see your point, even if i disagree with it". you won't find that here, with some people.

[Steven]

I know... its a discussion with the word "church" in it... therefore all logic and reason are irrelivent... perhaps if I picked a specific religion to argue from I could use the "because that's just what I believe" catch all... and defeat all others...

you two really should hang out more, your cute togethor....

[Steven]

the point was that because the noise complaint was about a CHURCH, that it would be made into a religious discussion whether it is about it or not.

I didint turn into a religeous discussion Phee.

[pharoh]

favoritism? there's a reason we were chosen as mods - are you saying troy doesn't know what he's doing?

and yes, i will accept that i mis-spoke when i said "win" - what i meant to communicate was "impossible to hold an open-minded conversation where people can admit to something like "i can see your point, even if i disagree with it". you won't find that here, with some people.

Did those words Troy doesn't know what hes doing come out of my mouth (or fingers)? No. Please don't say that or assume that unless I say/write it. Thanks

And yes I will agree with you that there are some people who cannot admit seeing someone elses point, but that goes straight across the board dude like everything else.

[Steven]

this is why i said "resistance is futile" - there is a select group of people on this board that, no matter what is being said, no matter how clearly a point is made, they will always relate it back to religion/religious persecution. there is no point to debating anything with them, because it's impossible to win - they're either to stubborn to admit they might be wrong, or they get off on antagonizing others just up to, but not crossing, the "breaking the rules" line.

i'm not even sure why you jumped in on this thread at this point, other than you felt left out & wanted to stir the pot as well. aren't you wasting *your* time? how was this series of posts of yours constructive?

and how is yours constructive Mike?

your insinuating that "a select group of people" are relating this thread (ALWAYS is a powerful word) to religeous persecution. But in reality the more it developed, the more I began to express that I beleived this problem came from within the faith itself. You blinked too quickly.

[torn asunder]

double bingo (bango)

who cares when it happened? (well, ok - *i* don't care when it happened) people keep using the "freedom of religion" argument, but i have to say, what about "freedom from religion"!? if this person(s) are able to hear worship outside of the church, the church is infringing on said person's rights, aren't they?

what if i moved in next door to you, got an "internet" minister's "card" and started holding "voodoo" services, complete with amplifiers/speakers, etc. at midnight (because that's when the "spirits" are most powerful, and you could hear it on your property? if i was to say, "it's my religious right to worship, and you have no right to stop me", what would you do? what would you say?

would people in this thread defend the "voodoo" worshippers with the same fervor that they are defending the x-tians in this case? i highly doubt it...

[pharoh]

Back to the artical now.....

Does anyone know the ordinance laws if they change at night then? From my past expieriences, it has to be past a certain time frame (like 9-10pm) for that stuff to take effect. 70 decibles is nothing really.

[Steven]

Ok re-re reading it, it go down that road at first, I will take what I said about that back, but the thread was left open to discuss, and after all the religious aspects were talked about, it went to a different angle and was not going back down that road. Phee, with that comment was taking a shot plain and simple. Your my buddy and all but I'm sorry I gotta call you out on it. There was no reason for it.

Hey folks.....did any of you notice the question mark on my title to the thread?

all I did was open a door and leave it to you all to pick apart.

you all quickly chose sides.

[pharoh]

you two really should hang out more, your cute togethor....

Dude, I just said something to phee about this...cmon man.

[torn asunder]

and how is yours constructive Mike?

your insinuating that "a select group of people" are relating this thread (ALWAYS is a powerful word) to religeous persecution. But in reality the more it developed, the more I began to express that I beleived this problem came from within the faith itself. You blinked too quickly.

mine *isn't* constructive anymore, because i'm responding to posts that aren't either! if those posts weren't there, i wouldn't be posting non-constructive replies...

[Steven]

who cares when it happened? (well, ok - *i* don't care when it happened) people keep using the "freedom of religion" argument, but i have to say, what about "freedom from religion"!? if this person(s) are able to hear worship outside of the church, the church is infringing on said person's rights, aren't they?

what if i moved in next door to you, got an "internet" minister's "card" and started holding "voodoo" services, complete with amplifiers/speakers, etc. at midnight (because that's when the "spirits" are most powerful, and you could hear it on your property? if i was to say, "it's my religious right to worship, and you have no right to stop me", what would you do? what would you say?

would people in this thread defend the "voodoo" worshippers with the same fervor that they are defending the x-tians in this case? i highly doubt it...

first I'd say whatever I had to say - to you directly, not thru the local magistrate.

next - if your cha cha came froma building known for, designed for, and built for religeous services (you guys relly need to pick better examples that are grounded in say - reality) and thsoe servicces were taking place at normal hours as traditionally experienced by western society then I'd sorta have to deal with it wouldent I Mike?

or move.

[Steven]

mine *isn't* constructive anymore, because i'm responding to posts that aren't either! if those posts weren't there, i wouldn't be posting non-constructive replies...

you'll pardon my inability to recognize your authoratative viewpoint of course....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

who cares when it happened? (well, ok - *i* don't care when it happened) people keep using the "freedom of religion" argument, but i have to say, what about "freedom from religion"!? if this person(s) are able to hear worship outside of the church, the church is infringing on said person's rights, aren't they?

what if i moved in next door to you, got an "internet" minister's "card" and started holding "voodoo" services, complete with amplifiers/speakers, etc. at midnight (because that's when the "spirits" are most powerful, and you could hear it on your property? if i was to say, "it's my religious right to worship, and you have no right to stop me", what would you do? what would you say?

would people in this thread defend the "voodoo" worshippers with the same fervor that they are defending the x-tians in this case? i highly doubt it...

Excuse me? Yes, I would. I fight for everyone's Freedom of Religion. As for Freedom From Religion... I shall have to get you a link on how to get that admended to the Constitution... until you do, stop beating that dead horse.

And when it happened is highly relavent. Noise ordances usually have time periods involved in them. and 70db? Your vacum is louder than that.

[Steven]

Dude, I just said something to phee about this...cmon man.

busted

guitly

and even a wee bit ticked off.

I therefore officially rebuke ME from what I just did.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BTW the Church has been there 50 years. The guy complaining 7 years. and he can only hear it in his yard, not in his house.

[Steven]

favoritism? there's a reason we were chosen as mods - are you saying troy doesn't know what he's doing?

and yes, i will accept that i mis-spoke when i said "win" - what i meant to communicate was "impossible to hold an open-minded conversation where people can admit to something like "i can see your point, even if i disagree with it". you won't find that here, with some people.

sure you will.

Marc and I had a similar civil conversation about this thread just yesterday. It was in PM though so that we would not soil our public reputations.

[Steven]

BTW the Church has been there 50 years. The guy complaining 7 years. and he can only hear it in his yard, not in his house.

Dangit but your dangerously close to making good logical sense.....

[Rayne]

or move.

Now, I know you've tried that Steven ... as have Phee and I. The economy here in Michigan doesn't allow for that right now. I *know* you know as well as we do, there's no way we can sell and get what we owe (at the very least) out of our houses.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

If only moving were so simple here nowadays, who's to say the guy hasn't tried that? Or wouldn't have if the housing market/economy allowed it to happen?

[Steven]

Did those words Troy doesn't know what hes doing come out of my mouth (or fingers)? No. Please don't say that or assume that unless I say/write it. Thanks

And yes I will agree with you that there are some people who cannot admit seeing someone elses point, but that goes straight across the board dude like everything else.

gotta line up with my Bro on this one.

[torn asunder]

you know what? fuck this - i don't need it...

[pharoh]

Now, I know you've tried that Steven ... as have Phee and I. The economy here in Michigan doesn't allow for that right now. I *know* you know as well as we do, there's no way we can sell and get what we owe (at the very least) out of our houses.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

If only moving were so simple here nowadays, who's to say the guy hasn't tried that? Or wouldn't have if the housing market/economy allowed it to happen?

I totally can see this side babe, which is why I say get someone out there with a decible meter, go to a distance everyone can agree with, and take a reading....if it's to loud turn it down....

But first I would like to know what the noise ordinance laws are for the area......70db seems really low to me.

Great post hun

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Now, I know you've tried that Steven ... as have Phee and I. The economy here in Michigan doesn't allow for that right now. I *know* you know as well as we do, there's no way we can sell and get what we owe (at the very least) out of our houses.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

If only moving were so simple here nowadays, who's to say the guy hasn't tried that? Or wouldn't have if the housing market/economy allowed it to happen?

Drastic measures... like Federal court and taking a local corrupt prosecutor to task.

[Rayne]

Drastic measures... like Federal court and taking a local corrupt prosecutor to task.

Be glad you got out of Michigan when you did Gaf.

[Steven]

Now, I know you've tried that Steven ... as have Phee and I. The economy here in Michigan doesn't allow for that right now. I *know* you know as well as we do, there's no way we can sell and get what we owe (at the very least) out of our houses.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

If only moving were so simple here nowadays, who's to say the guy hasn't tried that? Or wouldn't have if the housing market/economy allowed it to happen?

I understand this Rayne.

so were hopefully picking the lesser of two evils then.

if its truly a noise problem - then with all of this suiing and countersuing - lets get a written contract or agreement on acceptable levels of noise during accpetable hours - with the understanding that both private citizens at home and repsectable church members who have a right to a house of worship can agree upon.

hopefully - that will be the end result of this thing.

and maybe its not going to end up beign as drastic as it seems....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Noise. At no time shall noise from any land use exceed seventy (70) decibels when measured at the property line. Furthermore, all objectionable sounds that measure less than seventy (70) decibels, example barking dog, air conditioning unit, machinery sound, shall be muffled so as not to adversely affect adjacent land uses.

thats the local ordinance.