Necessary Evils Can Be A Need....

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

ok...before ANY OF YOU want to jump down my throat for this....I need to explain something to you....at no time do I CONDONE the actions I will discuss below.....but CONDONING an action, and understanding it's psychological value on a disturbed mindset are two seperate parts of the animal.

I wrote this several years ago....so it jumps around a bit...is very abrasive (most of you should be used to this from me anyway), but has viewpoints that, to those that understand what it is, can hardly be argued with.

It is one of our instinctual bases of mentality as humans to judge. It is taught to us a long time ago that thats what happened to us, and though many of us like to think that we don't, we still do. Our judgement comes with little regard to the lives of the subjects of our judgement, and even less to what may lie within their heads. I find this a travesty, and while I try not to do such things, I must confess that I find it much harder to do then to say.

I have, however, come to the understanding that, for certian individuals, there are what can be deemed as "necessary evils" that they feel a need to commit for the betterment of their mental state. Understand that they do not have the same "wiring" that lets them feel that these things are wrong, but are running on a complete different set of rules for moral and immoral behavior. I will choose two of what can be deemed as the "worst" of the evils one of the human race can commit, and explain them as what they are to those certain indiviuals; psychological needs.

Murder:

Murder can be a need: a need to respond to pain. Hurt an average human, and he will feel pain. Pain makes someone retaliate.

Why? Because while man is not sinful by nature, he is by nature weak. Man suffers. Man cries. Man feels.

Each person believes, at points in their life, that no-one can feel pain like they do, that no-one understands what they have gone through.

There are humans out there that feel that the only way to feel better is to make people feel the pain they feel.

To hurt someone emotionally that you don't know...very hard. To make them feel the physical side of your pain, however, to put your suffering into physical form, that is relatively easy.

If someone cannot understand your suffering, your pain, your anger....the best way for these people to know what you are feeling is to teach them.

A murderer, a true murderer, teaches. He teaches you how he feels inside. He teaches you how he thinks of himself as an outcast, or how his wife left him, or how mommy never loved him....or he teaches you that he is suffering from hurting himself, that all this pain that he is in...it is self inflicted.

A true murderer is not a person of understandable mental issues, because what he/she does is a very extreme solution to what they believe to be an extreme problem. To understand what he is doing, you have to delve so deep into his mind that many of us would become lost. It can be the smallest thing, or the greatest sorrow. It is different for each case. It is, many times, not as simple as "bi-polar" or "schizophrenic". His mental state is a very intricate web of ideals and triggers.

ANYTHING can set off the acts that he commits, his "lessons". He sees himself no-longer an outcast, but a teacher, an artist...a saviour.

Much of what I have said here can be backed by a very famous writer, who has years of study on this type of murderer; Thomas Harris, author of "Silence of the Lambs", "Red Dragon", and "Hannibal".

Each of his "villians" are, in my view, the True Murderer. They believe that they are an evolution, in one form or another. From mortal to the "Great Red Dragon", from male to female, even from Doctor to "cleanser of human nature", they have all evolved. They do not understand what they do to be what we all consider evil, they consider it a necessity for human nature, either their own or ours, to continue.

Rape:

Rape can be a need...a need to fill a hunger.

Hunger, a craving, to fill ones appetite....that is the reason behind some rapes. People hunger for attention, in one form or another. We crave attention, we want people to notice us, to talk to us, to touch us. We crave contact. The most contact with another person is sex.

It is so very easy, if not natural, for sex to be addictive. Even masturbation is addictive. The feeling is addictive.

Yet another need: to fill one's addiction. Sex can become a hunger...an undeniable craving. We want to feel that kind of pleasure/pain, that "moment of clouds and rain" as the Japanese have put it. Anyone who has any kind of sexual relations what-so-ever can testify that sex is addictive.

Addictive..yes...easy to come by....not as much.

Millions of people flirt (once again, we go back to the craving for attention.) They say that flirting is harmless. Again, another hardly. Flirt with people that crave attention too much, and they think that you actually might care.

Another addiction: love. Those people that believe that you care, in that same moment, they believe that you not only care, but desire them as well. So is the danger of flirting. Desire is a by-product, in an odd way, of that same insatiable appetite that we've been trying to fill.

Appetites can be amazing, and dangerous, things, especially when its not our stomachs we seek to fill. Which one of us does not understand appetites? Which of us do not understand it's manipulation on our lives? How many of you have not let your appetite not control you at some point, let it over-ride what you know is wrong??

Don't think this doesn't happen in some cases of rape, because it does. It sinks into their mind so much, and over-rides better sides of them.

Again, I do not, in any form, condone these acts. This was just put out there as a profile tool, to help some people understand that, while it is still an evil to our nature, that for some it is a need so great, that they don't have the faculities to overcome it.

and now...I wait for the hellfire and brimstone...

[Onyx]

Interesting. Quite well-written.

I believe that everyone is actually capable of murder. The fact that most choose not to is what separates us from the animals.

(Must continue to remind myself not to commit murder today)!

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

Don't forget that for some, rape isn't about sex, or addiction to sex, or wanting attention, its about asserting dominance over someone. a lot of rape isn't done with their own... members, but with object that happen to be shaped like such....

i must say, that it is written really well. and i agree w/ you, for the most part.

[sass_in_the_pants]

So, what's your point?

I'm not trying to be snarky, I really am asking if this is truly the case, what should society do about it?

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

So, what's your point?

I'm not trying to be snarky, I really am asking if this is truly the case, what should society do about it?

my point is that, in some cases, if you don't understand what is going through their head, you can never understand as to the reason why...and that is always the most important reason.

what should society do?....learn ot understand and identify that which follows the profiles above...and which don't.

that, at least, would be a start.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

After reading your ideas on murder I think that you would enjoy FM Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment very much.

I did...when I was 12....lol....

[hunhee]

I agree with the above sentiments, the reason why have rules and laws, is for these exact reasons.

The governing force of most laws like Hamurabi's code (some of the first written laws) was fear. Fear of one's own safety from one's own "self". The first laws set were against these exact carnal needs that reside in every human being, I would imagine more so back then than now). I also believe that's where a Deity fits in best, because without such "supernatural fear of the damned" we wouldn't have been as easily convinced to follow suit.

The good thing is, most of us have logic/reason. We decide that this is evil (or a perception of evil, it's really just human nature), and we act accordingly.

Now we follow laws because it's more of a human comfort type of thing, not so much fear. If we live outside the realm of our current human comfort (cellphones/cars), then we fear it being taken away from us, and that just isn't cool.

[Homicidalheathen]

I would die/kill for my right to freedom of religion.

[~Tszura~]

I think I see what you are saying, though don’t agree with everything. I understand how a murderer or a rapist can commit their acts of violence on another due to a need to teach and connect with someone in some way. I do believe, however, that it also has to do with power and control. When a murderer teaches someone their “lesson,” that lesson is final. How much satisfaction can he/she receive in so fleeting of a moment if the act is only about teaching? This is why I bring in power and control.

With rape, I can also see how a need to “teach” someone about their pain, sorrow, and desire for human connection could play in the mix, but again, its not all. There are definitely power and control issues here, too. I say this from experience, unfortunately.

Pondering your message further, are you trying to say that, regarding just the two topics above, that a “true” murderer and rapist are artists, interested only in teaching others? That maybe they have little to no concept of the damage they are inflicting, egocentric by their own nature, interested only in a human connection, and right or wrong, using violence as a way to transfer that message? Hmmm, don’t we kind of have a word for that already……”sociopath” maybe? : )

I feel as though you are also trying to say something more by your statements above though…..such as what is “moral/immoral” or “good/evil?” In my opinion, these are purely conceptual terms. There is no right/wrong, good/evil. There is experience, however, and how it all makes us feel. Somewhere down the line, these definitions and concepts evolved due to practicality. It’s not exactly practical for humans to run around raping, killing, and doing hurtful things to each other. We established rules and codes of conduct due to being able to identify with the pain of negative experiences. How many people would sign up to be murdered, beat up, raped, emotionally scarred, and psychologically traumatized? Not me! I’ve had enough of that business!

I don’t condone the above acts either, but I do see what you are trying to say. I, personally, would much rather continue to try to evolve my humanity, wiping out all the chud that are either driven to hurt others because they can’t control themselves, or do it out of a need to teach a lesson about their personal pain. I don’t need these kind of big fu*%ing babies propagating my species!

So this brings up sass in the pants question of what do we do about it? Sounds like another thread!!!

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Pondering your message further, are you trying to say that, regarding just the two topics above, that a “true” murderer and rapist are artists, interested only in teaching others? That maybe they have little to no concept of the damage they are inflicting, egocentric by their own nature, interested only in a human connection, and right or wrong, using violence as a way to transfer that message? Hmmm, don’t we kind of have a word for that already……”sociopath” maybe? : )

artists?...well....you definately view it like that...especially for the murderer, especially if it's not somewhat that is more extravagant then say, a bullet to the heart. However, in the type of events and mindset that I am talking about....and mind you, this whole thing is over 3-4 years old, when I was a little more un-collected....it's not really a "teaching of art", but more of a "teaching of morality" as they see it. Hannibal Lecter is perfect for this. He does not kill for the art, or for any other reason then, as he sees it, "wiping out all the chud". Think of all of his victims, in the books. They were, in some form or another, social deviants: rude, manipulative, greedy, etc.

I feel as though you are also trying to say something more by your statements above though…..such as what is “moral/immoral” or “good/evil?” In my opinion, these are purely conceptual terms. There is no right/wrong, good/evil. There is experience, however, and how it all makes us feel. Somewhere down the line, these definitions and concepts evolved due to practicality. It’s not exactly practical for humans to run around raping, killing, and doing hurtful things to each other. We established rules and codes of conduct due to being able to identify with the pain of negative experiences. How many people would sign up to be murdered, beat up, raped, emotionally scarred, and psychologically traumatized? Not me! I’ve had enough of that business!

and I fully respect and understand where your coming from, but I think either you missed something, or I have not elaborated enough on the subject itself. We are talking about individuals whose morals differ from your and mine, and not because they just don't care, or it's a pleasure to them, but more because they don't see it as we do....for them if is a "need" and appetite...and which of us has not, at least once, satisfied their appetites??

So this brings up sass in the pants question of what do we do about it? Sounds like another thread!!!

what are we to do about it?....can an answer for such minds be so easily found?...death?...exiled?....treatment?...can it even be treated?

hmm...another thread...indeed...that would seem like a good idea, but I will not be the one to start that...i'll leave that to another.

[~Tszura~]

artists?...well....you definately view it like that...especially for the murderer, especially if it's not somewhat that is more extravagant then say, a bullet to the heart. However, in the type of events and mindset that I am talking about....and mind you, this whole thing is over 3-4 years old, when I was a little more un-collected....it's not really a "teaching of art", but more of a "teaching of morality" as they see it. Hannibal Lecter is perfect for this. He does not kill for the art, or for any other reason then, as he sees it, "wiping out all the chud". Think of all of his victims, in the books. They were, in some form or another, social deviants: rude, manipulative, greedy, etc.

and I fully respect and understand where your coming from, but I think either you missed something, or I have not elaborated enough on the subject itself. We are talking about individuals whose morals differ from your and mine, and not because they just don't care, or it's a pleasure to them, but more because they don't see it as we do....for them if is a "need" and appetite...and which of us has not, at least once, satisfied their appetites??

what are we to do about it?....can an answer for such minds be so easily found?...death?...exiled?....treatment?...can it even be treated?

hmm...another thread...indeed...that would seem like a good idea, but I will not be the one to start that...i'll leave that to another.

Hopefully that was just a typo, for I personally don’t see murder as art, and if that is what I conveyed, then I apologize. I thank you for elaborating further, as your point is made more clear to me now regarding the subject of “teaching morality.“ And I agree that there are people in the world with completely different morals that will never see things the way that the majority of people do. Not all will murder, rape, pillage, and plunder, but some will, which leads into the new thread about what to do with them.

Before I close….Can one commit murder in the name of morality? I guess this goes along with my thoughts on euthanizing. And for some reason I view a collective decision to murder via some sort of established societal law as different from one person running around killing people selectively on their own.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Hopefully that was just a typo, for I personally don’t see murder as art, and if that is what I conveyed, then I apologize. I thank you for elaborating further, as your point is made more clear to me now regarding the subject of “teaching morality.“ And I agree that there are people in the world with completely different morals that will never see things the way that the majority of people do. Not all will murder, rape, pillage, and plunder, but some will, which leads into the new thread about what to do with them.

Before I close….Can one commit murder in the name of morality? I guess this goes along with my thoughts on euthanizing. And for some reason I view a collective decision to murder via some sort of established societal law as different from one person running around killing people selectively on their own.

no, it wasn't a typo...and I think I understand what you wished to convey...but actually...you can consider certain murders as a form of "art"...though their occurance is rare.

and yes, I do believe that once CAN commit murder in the name of morality, but that is a very tangled web to play in....but what the hell...I'm all for tangled webs.

So...what say all of you.....Murder in the name of Morality? A consensus for an execution? Is it right to Kill a Killer, and if so, how are we vindicated??

p.s. I'm kinda giddy now...cuz that last line makes me feel like Larry King.....

[Homicidalheathen]

Murder is not art. Horror is art...body modification is art....but murder, think thats going to far.

Being a sociopath......gets ya kicked out of the tribe (or at least it used to)

Living on your own alone in the wild makes you straighten up or kills ya....

Like I said before...put all the nuts on one island and let them rule themselves or die trying.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Murder is not art. Horror is art...body modification is art....but murder, think thats going to far.

and again...it is how you would view certain, rare cases.

I will also go further and say that, as a society that largely embraces horror/ sci-fi moves, that we accept, nay, CONDONE the ideal of artistic murder. With the series of slasher flicks, we have condoned it: House of 1000 Corpses, Devils Rejects, Halloween, Scream, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the "Hannibal" series. We enjoy the characters that embody this condoning, whether they frighten or thrill us.

We laugh at Freddy

We've cheered on Jason

We've rooted on for Otis and Baby

We were amazed at the frightening speed of Micheal Myers (no...NOT the comedian)

We even secretly wanted Leatherface to kill those ppl.

I mean...as much as I hate her....how many of us went to see "House of Wax" to see Paris get done in?

"going too far" was done much, much too long ago...but now when I suggest that you could view murder as an art, people will find it offensive....when most of us enjoyed the promotion of murder in the first place.

anyway...such discussion on THIS area of the topic has now been sided to be taken here

[hunhee]

Okay.. so what if someone did actually murder someone, used their blood as most of the pigment for the paint, skin teeth, etc. for texture.. got a gala opening, and called it "Murder as Art" and it's a hit.. why? because no one knows it was an ACTUAL murder.

This particular piece we will call "My Bloody Valentine".. heh

"They" call it genius.

"They" call it art.

Now, you can ask yourself (if you didn't know) is this art?

You would probably say "yes".

But now knowing.. do you call it art?

EDIT TO SAY:

Pondering whether or not to move this to that other thread.. Hmm..

Just going to copy it, it sorta fits both places..

[Pandora]

Rape is not a need, it's about power and violence. Period.

Sex is a need, Rape is not.

[Homicidalheathen]

Agreed

Rape is not a need, it's about power and violence. Period.

Sex is a need, Rape is not.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Rape is not a need, it's about power and violence. Period.

Sex is a need, Rape is not.

and we're back to the revolving door of "perception"

[Corpse_Ecstasy]

I believe there are necessary evils most definitely, ofcourse to protect ones self, you may have to do what it considered evil : the kill or be killed theory...to protect yourself or a loved one...

I stand for evil that repels evil.

Also, anything that harms the innocent, is not a necessary evil.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I believe there are necessary evils most definitely, ofcourse to protect ones self, you may have to do what it considered evil : the kill or be killed theory...to protect yourself or a loved one...

I stand for evil that repels evil.

Also, anything that harms the innocent, is not a necessary evil.

and the judgement of what is innocent, and what is not....thats a WHOLE other thread....

[Hellion]

IMO,putting to death a serial child molester is a form of good evil.

[Mizuna]

Sadly I have a closed mind.

I believe in the evil for the greater good. The greater public good, as in for the community as a whole. Not selfish fullfillment of ones desires.

Rape... That would neer be for the public interest unless in extreme circumstances like the survival of the human race.

Murder... There is the death penalty and I agree with it sometimes, however it should only be used in cases where it would be better off for society, for example killing someone who is threatening to kill someone, even in the case of Saddam he should have not been killed due to if he was just held in prison, there would no longer be a need to sentence him to death because he would no longer be a sufficent threat in my opinion to overall public safety.

I find it strange how you attemtpted make the murder part some sort of art form, or teaching, kudos to you for it. All I read though was another reason behind doign an unjust crime.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Sadly I have a closed mind.

I believe in the evil for the greater good. The greater public good, as in for the community as a whole. Not selfish fullfillment of ones desires.

Rape... That would neer be for the public interest unless in extreme circumstances like the survival of the human race.

Murder... There is the death penalty and I agree with it sometimes, however it should only be used in cases where it would be better off for society, for example killing someone who is threatening to kill someone, even in the case of Saddam he should have not been killed due to if he was just held in prison, there would no longer be a need to sentence him to death because he would no longer be a sufficent threat in my opinion to overall public safety.

I find it strange how you attemtpted make the murder part some sort of art form, or teaching, kudos to you for it. All I read though was another reason behind doign an unjust crime.

Well...you have to remember that we are talking RARE cases here, and only in certain perceptions. Think of it as an exercise in philosophical psychology.