Abortion

[Guest Megalicious]

What if a woman just keeps making alot of mistakes? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, really I'm not, but I hear people say this 'It should be available but not as a form of birth control' and it confuses me. The whole point of an abortion is to prevent the birth of a child so by definition abortion is a form of birth control. I understand what you are saying - you think it should not be used as regular birth control, but then when you say it's a woman's body and she can choose to abort her unborn baby, well, when a woman goes in for her third or fourth abortion, it's STILL her body, right? Why shouldn't she be allowed to terminate as many babies as she pleases?

First off your definition of birth control is HIGHLY distorted by what you already believe to be true. (the same is true for me, and everyone for that matter, when it comes to things we feel so strongly for, no one can remain objective)

I HIGHLY BELIEVE ABORTION IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL. <--- LIke I told GP, I have my way of think, you have yours.

I believe that birth control is something you do to PREVENT, BEFORE HAND a unwanted pregnancy. and I THINK most people here would agree with me when I say there is a HUGE difference between an abortion and condoms/pills/ring.

Things are RARELY black and white.

You have your set of beliefs/opinion I have mine. That being said.....

Of course, I'm not saying your wrong, everyone is right when it comes to their opinion.

[phee]

I have always liked the.... "DON'T LIKE ABORTION... DON'T HAVE ONE" mentallity.... but that is just me....

[know_buddy_kares]

personally I'm agaisnt it myself. If I was a girl that got preggers, I'd keep it honestly.. and if I ever get a girl preggers... I'll stay with her the best I can (as a friend at least if we don't work out) and actually be there to be a fucking dad the best I can.. if she gets it aborted.. I'm probably going to drop all contact with her.

However.. I will not PREACH what any girl should do. I live life with the philosophy, "live and let live" wich means if someone has a different opinion than me, I'm not going to bastardize them for it. I will not hold judgement onto them and tell them how wrong they are. It's their life, i sure as hell don't want anyone jumpin in my koolaide tellin me how I should take care of my own personal body, so I won't do it to others. However as far as a relationship goes.. I can't be serious with someone who could go that route.. just personaly it's a red flag to me that the she won't have the emotions i require of her to have to have a serious relationship. But as far as friends go.. she can get her shit scraped 3 times a year for all i care, if she's fun to hang out with so be it.. I'll just never hook up with her.

[Guest Megalicious]

I have always liked the.... "DON'T LIKE ABORTION... DON'T HAVE ONE" mentallity.... but that is just me....

Iz likz thats onez too! (<--- yes, I know it's improper grammar)

[know_buddy_kares]

Meg, I'm not picking on you here, I just so happened to pull two of your comments...

What I don't understand here is this was EXACTLY what birth control pills and abortion were supposed to stop. This is what the birth control industry and the abortion industries said - they promised us a brave new world where, since obviously every kid who would now exist would be wanted, there would no longer be children who were abused and neglected. And that's NOT what we got. We got 48 million dead babies and children are STILL getting mistreated.

that's 48 million less abused/raped/neglected babies in the world.

What if a woman just keeps making alot of mistakes? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, really I'm not, but I hear people say this 'It should be available but not as a form of birth control' and it confuses me. The whole point of an abortion is to prevent the birth of a child so by definition abortion is a form of birth control. I understand what you are saying - you think it should not be used as regular birth control, but then when you say it's a woman's body and she can choose to abort her unborn baby, well, when a woman goes in for her third or fourth abortion, it's STILL her body, right? Why shouldn't she be allowed to terminate as many babies as she pleases?

mother nature is a beautiful thing (as well as darwinism) if the said "mom" uses abortion as a form of birth control, after a few tries, it's going to fuck her body up so badly she won't be able to have kids anymore.. or possibly die of a fucked up pregnancy. For people like this, at least they're smart enough to know they're too stupid to actually go through with reproduction..

[phee]

that's 48 million less abused/raped/neglected babies in the world.

mother nature is a beautiful thing (as well as darwinism) if the said "mom" uses abortion as a form of birth control, after a few tries, it's going to fuck her body up so badly she won't be able to have kids anymore.. or possibly die of a fucked up pregnancy. For people like this, at least they're smart enough to know they're too stupid to actually go through with reproduction..

Intelligent response sir

[Restless Oblivion]

Ok I thought I'd add my bit to this too.

Let's face it, we will never all agree with eachother because abortion impacts on all levels of existence. And by that I mean - spiritual, religious, moral, ethical, biological, social, emotional, legal, financial and probably a few others.

My view comes from my spiritual beliefs, but is also very influenced by some research I did way back into whether foetuses feel pain and how early in their biological development they can feel pain. That is a whole other thread but from that, my PERSONAL leaning is towards thinking that if I was to have an unwanted pregnancy that my choice would be to keep it no matter what.

However, I would like to stress that this is my personal choice and belief, and I am by no means saying that this should apply to everyone. I believe that each of us has the right to make a choice in this matter (men and women) because we all live very different lives and have different life circumstances that when it comes to bringing children into the world MUST be taken into consideration. Hence - I believe in the right to make an INFORMED choice.

No, abortion should not be thought of as 'oh well to hell with contraception, if I get pregnant no big deal I'll just abort the child' - but as a last resort if 'an accident' does happen.

But I need to take a step back - I believe in prevention first of all. We need to build a society where people are emotionally resillient and emotionally intelligent (thats a whole other thread too), thaught parenting skills from a young age (and I don't mean the style of parenting classes they teach in most places these days unfortunately), have soundly developed coping skills, and solid social support mechanisms both personal and government provided. And for those who do decide that the right choice for them is an abortion, they will have access to top quality emotional and psychological support following the abortion process (and that includes the father!).

So basically abortion is a very complicated issue :D

[Guest Megalicious]

Ok I thought I'd add my bit to this too.

Let's face it, we will never all agree with eachother because abortion impacts on all levels of existence. And by that I mean - spiritual, religious, moral, ethical, biological, social, emotional, legal, financial and probably a few others.

My view comes from my spiritual beliefs, but is also very influenced by some research I did way back into whether foetuses feel pain and how early in their biological development they can feel pain. That is a whole other thread but from that, my PERSONAL leaning is towards thinking that if I was to have an unwanted pregnancy that my choice would be to keep it no matter what.

However, I would like to stress that this is my personal choice and belief, and I am by no means saying that this should apply to everyone. I believe that each of us has the right to make a choice in this matter (men and women) because we all live very different lives and have different life circumstances that when it comes to bringing children into the world MUST be taken into consideration. Hence - I believe in the right to make an INFORMED choice.

No, abortion should not be thought of as 'oh well to hell with contraception, if I get pregnant no big deal I'll just abort the child' - but as a last resort if 'an accident' does happen.

But I need to take a step back - I believe in prevention first of all. We need to build a society where people are emotionally resillient and emotionally intelligent (thats a whole other thread too), thaught parenting skills from a young age (and I don't mean the style of parenting classes they teach in most places these days unfortunately), have soundly developed coping skills, and solid social support mechanisms both personal and government provided. And for those who do decide that the right choice for them is an abortion, they will have access to top quality emotional and psychological support following the abortion process (and that includes the father!).

So basically abortion is a very complicated issue :D

Exactly!~

[Nightgaunt]

Thank you for pointing out the origins of planned parenthood. More than once on DGN, I've seen people advocating "testing" of potential parents for intelligence, genetic defects, etc. Hitler got his ideas from the American eugenics movement of the early 20th Century. Eugenics is pure evil, any way you look at it. Sure, at first blush it might sound like a good idea, but if you give it any thought whatsoever, the sickness of the whole thing becomes apparent.

Before my son was born, the hospital kept pushing us to have a test done that would have determined whether or not Sam had Down's Syndrome. We refused, on the grounds that the test was unnecessary, but they kept pushing for it. They finally admitted to us that the test would have given us information to make the decision whether or not to abort. We were aghast at this. We would have loved him, regardless of any mental handicap. What was most shocking was the assumption that any child born with Down's Syndrome could never contribute positively to society and should be thrown away with the trash at the earliest opportunity. This is Eugenics, the slippery slope to Hell on Earth.

I would caution anyone who advocates this sort of thing - deciding who can procreate and who cannot, who deserves to live and who doesn't - to think long and hard about all of the possible (and probable) ramifications of such policies.

I'll post my opinion on abortion, specifically, later...I have to get to work. I just had to put in my $0.02 on this, as it is a trend that worries me quite a lot these days.

I'm sure you all know the history of Planned Parenthood, right? They're the largest provider of abortions in America and they were founded by Margaret Sanger, a proponent of eugenics. She believed that the 'unfit' - more specifically black Americans - should not procreate. Her dreams are coming true. 78% of abortion clinics are in or near minority neighborhoods and abortion is the leading cause of death in the African-American community. This is why the King family is staunchly pro-life. It's easy to kill The Dream when The Dreamer isn't even allowed out of the womb. So, you see, since I am opposed to eugenics and racism, I am also opposed to abortion, since it promotes both.

There are two facts which I cannot deny:

1. What a woman has sucked out of her during an abortion, is a human being. The terms 'fetus' and 'zygote' reflect stages of development, in much the same way the words 'teenager' and 'senior citizen' do. It is, in fact, human for the entire time.

2. I believe ALL humans share the same inherent dignity and as such, there is NEVER justification for the taking of an innocent life. NEVER.

So there you have it.

Over 48 million babies have been aborted since roe v wade. For comparison, that's like wiping the entire nation of Spain off the planet. Roe, by the way, regrets her abortion. She is now pro-life.

This is no way suggests I am not sympathetic to a woman going through a crisis pregnancy. Actually quite the opposite. I think we live in a very backwards world...the message in our culture says 'You can have sex without consequences! No really, it's great!' and then the woman ends up pregnant and we tell her to go get an abortion - never mind HER emotional well-being.

Phee, the determination that life begins at conception is not arbitrary. Thinking about sex does not generate a unique person. It is only conception that does. Sperm, not joined with an egg, will become...nothing. An egg, not joined with sperm, will become...nothing.

Meg - I don't understand why one abortion would be okay, but, say, fifteen would not be. By the way, 48% of women seeking an abortion have already had at least one.

[Guest Megalicious]

I have ONLY ONE THING left to say and then I'm done with this thread.

If the shoe was on the other foot and they made abortion mandatory due to population control, you would bitching about how its your RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

Enough said. Point made. I am so done with this thread.

[TygerLili]

I'm sure you all know the history of Planned Parenthood, right? They're the largest provider of abortions in America and they were founded by Margaret Sanger, a proponent of eugenics. She believed that the 'unfit' - more specifically black Americans - should not procreate. Her dreams are coming true. 78% of abortion clinics are in or near minority neighborhoods and abortion is the leading cause of death in the African-American community. This is why the King family is staunchly pro-life. It's easy to kill The Dream when The Dreamer isn't even allowed out of the womb. So, you see, since I am opposed to eugenics and racism, I am also opposed to abortion, since it promotes both.

Actually, statistically, white and asian women choose to abort more often than black women. More black women choose to go through with their unplanned pregnancies because it's more heavily looked down upon in their culture.

*edited for clairty*

[know_buddy_kares]

Raptor Jesus is against abortions.. have them and sell them instead!

[Oh_My_Goth]

I'm sure you all know the history of Planned Parenthood, right? They're the largest provider of abortions in America and they were founded by Margaret Sanger, a proponent of eugenics. She believed that the 'unfit' - more specifically black Americans - should not procreate. Her dreams are coming true. 78% of abortion clinics are in or near minority neighborhoods and abortion is the leading cause of death in the African-American community. This is why the King family is staunchly pro-life. It's easy to kill The Dream when The Dreamer isn't even allowed out of the womb. So, you see, since I am opposed to eugenics and racism, I am also opposed to abortion, since it promotes both.

There are two facts which I cannot deny:

1. What a woman has sucked out of her during an abortion, is a human being. The terms 'fetus' and 'zygote' reflect stages of development, in much the same way the words 'teenager' and 'senior citizen' do. It is, in fact, human for the entire time.

2. I believe ALL humans share the same inherent dignity and as such, there is NEVER justification for the taking of an innocent life. NEVER.

So there you have it.

Over 48 million babies have been aborted since roe v wade. For comparison, that's like wiping the entire nation of Spain off the planet. Roe, by the way, regrets her abortion. She is now pro-life.

This is no way suggests I am not sympathetic to a woman going through a crisis pregnancy. Actually quite the opposite. I think we live in a very backwards world...the message in our culture says 'You can have sex without consequences! No really, it's great!' and then the woman ends up pregnant and we tell her to go get an abortion - never mind HER emotional well-being.

Phee, the determination that life begins at conception is not arbitrary. Thinking about sex does not generate a unique person. It is only conception that does. Sperm, not joined with an egg, will become...nothing. An egg, not joined with sperm, will become...nothing.

Meg - I don't understand why one abortion would be okay, but, say, fifteen would not be. By the way, 48% of women seeking an abortion have already had at least one.

U.S. Population 304,745,509 and counting.....& that is only the ones they actually count.....

In my opinion, OVERPOPULATED.....

Who is going to care for all the 'unwanted' children, especially the minority children that are given up?????

I think the attitude of 'Pro Lifers' is unrealistic at times.....

I love & appreciate life, that is why I think children should not have to suffer through a miserable existence in some foster home or facility; all the while knowing that their parents don't love them.....

Also the negative effects of the mother's attitude while pregnant.....A fetus IS alive and empathetic as hell.....

A women who does not want to be pregnant is going to have a shitty attitude while this child rips her body apart.....

I love my motherly body, because I love my child.....A woman who does not want children will probably

not feel the same way.....

I am not attacking you Sass.....This post just inspired Me to stand up for the right of unborn children to avoid a most likely craptastic life where they don't feel loved by their creators.....

It grew to this since I started writing this>>>>>U.S. population 304,745,613

[sass_in_the_pants]

that's 48 million less abused/raped/neglected babies in the world.

Intelligent response sir

Wow.

I mean, really, wow.

How is murder the charitable thing to do?

And why do you assume that the babies would necessarily have been abused?

I just don't think offing someone is a good way to end abuse. Actually, I think it's the worst kind of abuse.

Actually, statistically, white and asian women choose to abort more often than black women. More black women choose to go through with their unplanned pregnancies because it's more heavily looked down upon in their culture.

*edited for clairty*

I should clarify my statement. As a percentage of the whole, more white women do abort than black women. As a percentage of BABIES BORN of a particular ethnicity, more African-Americans are aborted than born.

You can find the data on the CDC website (you've got to go through a bunch of links, I'll dig them up if I have a minute)

U.S. Population 304,745,509 and counting.....& that is only the ones they actually count.....

In my opinion, OVERPOPULATED.....

Who is going to care for all the 'unwanted' children, especially the minority children that are given up?????

I think the attitude of 'Pro Lifers' is unrealistic at times.....

I love & appreciate life, that is why I think children should not have to suffer through a miserable existence in some foster home or facility; all the while knowing that their parents don't love them.....

Also the negative effects of the mother's attitude while pregnant.....A fetus IS alive and empathetic as hell.....

A women who does not want to be pregnant is going to have a shitty attitude while this child rips her body apart.....

I love my motherly body, because I love my child.....A woman who does not want children will probably

not feel the same way.....

I am not attacking you Sass.....This post just inspired Me to stand up for the right of unborn children to avoid a most likely craptastic life where they don't feel loved by their creators.....

It grew to this since I started writing this>>>>>U.S. population 304,745,613

I don't want to get into a debate about overpopulation in this thread - it would go completely off topic, and I don't want to threadjack, but I will simply say that I disagree - it is not the NUMBER of people on earth that causes the trouble, it's their actions. But, again, if you would like to further discuss overpopulation, maybe it should be another thread? There's SO much to say on that topic alone.

I don't understand how killing a baby could possibly be to the baby's benefit. As I said to KBK, I struggle to understand how killing an unborn baby is an act of charity. And again, I don't think that a 'craptastic' life is such a foregone conclusion. I don't think it's fair to assume that a woman who is carrying a child she didn't plan on would necessarily cause the baby harm.

There are a number of people on this board who have spoken very candidly about their past - their abusive childhoods, the lack of love from their family, and certainly I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But should the alternative be to wish these people didn't exist at all? Are those really our only choices - you either get abused or murdered?

isn't murder the ultimate abuse? So how does killing an unborn baby SAVE it from abuse?

[sass_in_the_pants]

I have ONLY ONE THING left to say and then I'm done with this thread.

If the shoe was on the other foot and they made abortion mandatory due to population control, you would bitching about how its your RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

Enough said. Point made. I am so done with this thread.

I'm opposed to abortion, state mandated or otherwise.

I actually have alot to say in response to this, but you have already said you are done with this thread, so I don't think it would make any sense for me to say anything more on this point.

[torn asunder]

but thats whats happening...the right/ chance to live is FORCIBLY being taken away from a living entity.

this type of attitude (not you personally) kinda pisses me off - this "entity" is, in fact, a parasite. it leeches it's entire creation from its host; it steals nutrients, minerals, even the air its host breathes, in order to perpetuate itself. yeah, i know that saying a child is a parasite will win me no brownie points, but in all honesty, it's true. that being said, it is in complete reliance on it's host for its survival - if the host doesn't want it, the host shouldn't be forced to carry it. i don't even think fathers should have any rights in this matter - the mother has to grow, carry, and give birth to this little creation, the father does jack squat, so what right does he have to "force" the mother to keep the child? in my opinion, he doesn't. without the host, the parasite dies; as such, the host has the ultimate control, and therefore, should have the final say in the matter. end of story, as far as i'm concerned.

apologies for the rather blunt comparison...

[Guest Megalicious]

I don't think it would make any sense for me to say anything more on this point.

You'd be right.

Edited to say: I realized how ambiguous this sounded, as things often do on the internet.

I wanted to add, thank you. I meant no malcontent.

[phee]

That is a valid comparison IMO Torn... becuase it is in fact like everything we see in life.... relative

Wow.

I mean, really, wow.

How is murder the charitable thing to do?

And why do you assume that the babies would necessarily have been abused?

I just don't think offing someone is a good way to end abuse. Actually, I think it's the worst kind of abuse.

I don't understand how killing a baby could possibly be to the baby's benefit. As I said to KBK, I struggle to understand how killing an unborn baby is an act of charity. And again, I don't think that a 'craptastic' life is such a foregone conclusion. I don't think it's fair to assume that a woman who is carrying a child she didn't plan on would necessarily cause the baby harm.

There are a number of people on this board who have spoken very candidly about their past - their abusive childhoods, the lack of love from their family, and certainly I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But should the alternative be to wish these people didn't exist at all? Are those really our only choices - you either get abused or murdered?

isn't murder the ultimate abuse? So how does killing an unborn baby SAVE it from abuse?

In the interest of interesting conversation I am going to respond to a few points....

One

"How is murder the charitable thing to do?"

You have already made a large personal assumption that it is murder, that is one of the questions poised here to begin with (is it murder or not?) Not everyone looks at it this way, just because you equate abortion to murder does not mean your "audience" in the thread would make that same assumption... so therefore the question itself is leading in nature and therefore moot.

Two

And why do you assume that the babies would necessarily have been abused?

I just don't think offing someone is a good way to end abuse. Actually, I think it's the worst kind of abuse.

Oh my... in about 2 minutes I can think of about 20 more horrible things to do to someone then murder them.

Three

I don't understand how killing a baby could possibly be to the baby's benefit. As I said to KBK, I struggle to understand how killing an unborn baby is an act of charity

I believe that you have stated that you do believe in heaven... that would be your answer if you do.

Four

I don't think it's fair to assume that a woman who is carrying a child she didn't plan on would necessarily cause the baby harm.

Unless she is considering abortion correct?

Five

But should the alternative be to wish these people didn't exist at all? Are those really our only choices - you either get abused or murdered?

I personally cannot say that I remember minding nonexisting before I was born... and again murdered.... an assumptive phrase. And no one is saying those are the only choices.... many others have been brought up in this thread.

[freydis]

I still think the biggest part of the abortion argument is being ignored:

Do you believe you have the right to impose your own morality and beliefs on someone else? Because by moving to get abortion outlawed, that is exactly what you're doing. Reguardless of what YOU think, YOU end somewhere and the other person begins... you can really only make this decision for yourself.

Personally? At this point, if I got pregnant I would have the kid. The only reason I'd abort would be in the case of rape, or if I found that the child would be born with some debilitating disease. I have had 3 family members die of cystic fibrosis. I would never knowingly condemn a child to some horrendous death.

And to answer sass' question: why only in the first trimester? Because after that, a fetus has the necessary brain connections and activity to support and sustain independant life. Before that, it cannot strictly be considered an independant human organism.

[Oh_My_Goth]

I don't want to get into a debate about overpopulation in this thread - it would go completely off topic, and I don't want to threadjack, but I will simply say that I disagree - it is not the NUMBER of people on earth that causes the trouble, it's their actions. But, again, if you would like to further discuss overpopulation, maybe it should be another thread? There's SO much to say on that topic alone.

I agree.....

Educating people would help change allot of things.....

I don't understand how killing a baby could possibly be to the baby's benefit. As I said to KBK, I struggle to understand how killing an unborn baby is an act of charity. And again, I don't think that a 'craptastic' life is such a foregone conclusion. I don't think it's fair to assume that a woman who is carrying a child she didn't plan on would necessarily cause the baby harm.

In my belief the soul moves on to the next vessel, which will "insert deity here" willing be a better one.....

I'm not picking up what your layin' down here.....

I would not ever assume anything.....I was just stating a likely scenario in allot of cases of women who would otherwise abort.....

There are a number of people on this board who have spoken very candidly about their past - their abusive childhoods, the lack of love from their family, and certainly I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But should the alternative be to wish these people didn't exist at all? Are those really our only choices - you either get abused or murdered?

Ummmm, that is supposed to mean?????

I don't think anybody here would rather have our abused brothers/sisters gone.....

I think you are reaching here.....

That is being a little black & white about it, isn't it?????

isn't murder the ultimate abuse? So how does killing an unborn baby SAVE it from abuse?

# Sexual abuse: The improper use of another person for sexual purposes, generally without their consent or under physical or psychological pressure (also, child sexual abuse, whether abused by parents, those in loco parentis or strangers).

# Physical abuse: Where one person inflicts physical violence or pain on another.

# Verbal abuse: When a person uses profanity, demeaning talk, or threatening statements.

# Emotional abuse or psychological abuse: coercion, humiliation, intimidation, relational aggression, parental alienation or covert incest: Where one person uses emotional or psychological coercion to compel another to do something they do not want, or is not in their best interests; or when one person manipulates another's emotional or psychological state for their own ends (see battered person syndrome), or commits psychological aggression using ostensibly non-violent methods to inflict mental or emotional violence or pain on another.

# Drug abuse: the misuse of drugs, alcohol or other substances, usually a form of addiction. Law enforcement officials, among others, often define drug abuse as "any" use of illegal drugs, whether or not use is actually harmful to the user or to anyone else.

# Child abuse: Abuse, usually physical, emotional or sexual, directed at a child.

[Fin]

Hey Now... it is possible to "accidently" fuck someone. I know this becaue i "accidently" fucked the someone.

I was in bed, asleep and dreaming... It was ofcourse dark in my room. Someone naked got in my bed. My hands wandered... her body Felt like my girlfriends body. She never said anything.

I didn;t know it wasn't my girl friend until the morning when I rolled over for seconds... and well... got a surprise.

Wait--so that is how Beethoven was conceived?

You people are confusing me....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I dont think a connection to Beethoven was implied.

[sass_in_the_pants]

I have always liked the.... "DON'T LIKE ABORTION... DON'T HAVE ONE" mentallity.... but that is just me....

May I present a scenario here?

What if someone was beating their girlfriend in the street, and you said 'Hey, stop it!' and he responded with 'Don't like beating your girlfriend, then don't do it' and continued to beat her, what would you do? Would you call the police? What if the police said 'We dno't really consider this a crime'?

this type of attitude (not you personally) kinda pisses me off - this "entity" is, in fact, a parasite. it leeches it's entire creation from its host; it steals nutrients, minerals, even the air its host breathes, in order to perpetuate itself. yeah, i know that saying a child is a parasite will win me no brownie points, but in all honesty, it's true. that being said, it is in complete reliance on it's host for its survival - if the host doesn't want it, the host shouldn't be forced to carry it. i don't even think fathers should have any rights in this matter - the mother has to grow, carry, and give birth to this little creation, the father does jack squat, so what right does he have to "force" the mother to keep the child? in my opinion, he doesn't. without the host, the parasite dies; as such, the host has the ultimate control, and therefore, should have the final say in the matter. end of story, as far as i'm concerned.

apologies for the rather blunt comparison...

This entity, is in fact, not a parasite. A parasite is, by definition a different species.

One You have already made a large personal assumption that it is murder, that is one of the questions poised here to begin with (is it murder or not?) Not everyone looks at it this way, just because you equate abortion to murder does not mean your "audience" in the thread would make that same assumption... so therefore the question itself is leading in nature and therefore moot.

1. Murder is based on two things - that what was killed was human and that it was not killed with 'just cause' (just causes being things like self-defense). So, does abortion meet these two criteria? Is an unborn baby a human? (If the answer is no, then please explain what it is) and is it killed with just cause (we are excluding here situations in which the mother's physical life is in danger...that's another topic altogether)

Two Oh my... in about 2 minutes I can think of about 20 more horrible things to do to someone then murder them.

And maybe that's where we'll always disagree. I have met many people who have been through absolutely horrendous experiences, as I'm sure you have as have other people on this board. Experiences that have left their victims broken physically and emotionally, left them paralyzed, left them shattered, but these people still say they're grateful to be alive.

By the way, if 20 things are more horrible than murder than why are murderers given the harshest penalty under the law?

Three I believe that you have stated that you do believe in heaven... that would be your answer if you do.

I see no reason to try to send people there prematurely. Do you think when a woman decides to have an abortion she is doing it because she is trying to get her baby to heaven? When asked why they had an abortion, women do not answer 'to send my baby to heaven'. They cite many other reasons, but that is not one.

Four Unless she is considering abortion correct?

I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying here. I was saying that a woman doesn't always want to cause her child harm, even if the pregnancy was unintended. I know you're trying to make a point here, but I must be missing it.

Five I personally cannot say that I remember minding nonexisting before I was born... and again murdered.... an assumptive phrase. And no one is saying those are the only choices.... many others have been brought up in this thread.

You were non-existent before you were born? So that nine months your mother carried you, you were non-existent? Heh...I bet your mother would beg to differ on that point. It's early in the morning, so perhaps my brain's not working right just yet. Could you explain this further. I'm sure you're not implying you didn't exist while you were in utero?

I still think the biggest part of the abortion argument is being ignored:

Do you believe you have the right to impose your own morality and beliefs on someone else? Because by moving to get abortion outlawed, that is exactly what you're doing. Reguardless of what YOU think, YOU end somewhere and the other person begins... you can really only make this decision for yourself.

Personally? At this point, if I got pregnant I would have the kid. The only reason I'd abort would be in the case of rape, or if I found that the child would be born with some debilitating disease. I have had 3 family members die of cystic fibrosis. I would never knowingly condemn a child to some horrendous death.

And to answer sass' question: why only in the first trimester? Because after that, a fetus has the necessary brain connections and activity to support and sustain independant life. Before that, it cannot strictly be considered an independant human organism.

Isn't keeping abortion legal ALSO imposing beliefs on someone else? If a mother considering abortion and decides to terminate her pregnancy did she not just impose her beliefs on her unborn?

To your point about the first trimester...what if I was in a car accident and I needed to be on life support? I could not, for a time, sustain an independent life. Would I cease to be an independent human organism? Would I then be subject to having my life terminated since I couldn't support it on my own?

I don't think anybody here would rather have our abused brothers/sisters gone.....

I think you are reaching here.....

That is being a little black & white about it, isn't it?????

Then please tell me what IS being suggested, because I am confused. I have heard from several people so far (Phee, KBK) that to be dead is better than to have been abused. See Phee's point above that he can think of about 20 things worse than murder. So, if you or anyone else could explain this point further, I would greatly appreciate it.

Edited to add: Okay, I've changed the color of my post like three times to try to make it easier to read, and I keep jacking it up, so sorry if it's difficult to read. I'm going back to bed now...

[freydis]

Isn't keeping abortion legal ALSO imposing beliefs on someone else? If a mother considering abortion and decides to terminate her pregnancy did she not just impose her beliefs on her unborn?

If its before the first trimester, it isnt developed enough to think or ever breathe in the first place. Several states use the ability (or likelihood of ability) to breathe as a marking point for whether terminating a pregnancy (by violence or otherwise) can be considered murder. It's not a fully developed human being until it has most of the right parts, and the ability to use them in *some* capacity. You cant be forcing a belief on something that has never had the ability to think, feel, etc. On the other hand, you, a seperate entity, telling someone (another seperate entity) who feels they cannot deal with having a child (who is, for at least the first few weeks of its existance a dependant part of its mother's body) what they can and cannot do with something that for all intents and purposes is a part of their own body is a bit unsettling.

To your point about the first trimester...what if I was in a car accident and I needed to be on life support? I could not, for a time, sustain an independent life. Would I cease to be an independent human organism? Would I then be subject to having my life terminated since I couldn't support it on my own?

Two things-- at some point in time, you had higher brain function, and the ability to choose for yourself whether you wanted life support. You (on life support) are a damaged human being. A fetus is a potential human being, it hasnt had the ability to grow to become one yet. Secondly, if you havent made out an advance directive, yes, your family has the right to choose whether you are terminated or not, so essentially, depending on your condition, in many ways you are the same.

[phee]

1. Murder is based on two things - that what was killed was human and that it was not killed with 'just cause' (just causes being things like self-defense). So, does abortion meet these two criteria? Is an unborn baby a human? (If the answer is no, then please explain what it is) and is it killed with just cause (we are excluding here situations in which the mother's physical life is in danger...that's another topic altogether)

Is an unborn baby a human? that is the question is it not? When does something qualify as human? I can't make that statement, can you?

And maybe that's where we'll always disagree. I have met many people who have been through absolutely horrendous experiences, as I'm sure you have as have other people on this board. Experiences that have left their victims broken physically and emotionally, left them paralyzed, left them shattered, but these people still say they're grateful to be alive.

By the way, if 20 things are more horrible than murder than why are murderers given the harshest penalty under the law?

We can agree to disagree on this.... but just because "the law" has decided something, does not mean I agree with it... but while I live here, I will obey it.

I see no reason to try to send people there prematurely. Do you think when a woman decides to have an abortion she is doing it because she is trying to get her baby to heaven? When asked why they had an abortion, women do not answer 'to send my baby to heaven'. They cite many other reasons, but that is not one.

That comes down to the whole "Choice" By your own statements, is paradise in heavan worse then life here? and if not... what is the delay? As far as what "most women think" I have enough trouble figuring that out anyway, let alone on an issue like this.

I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying here. I was saying that a woman doesn't always want to cause her child harm, even if the pregnancy was unintended. I know you're trying to make a point here, but I must be missing it.

Did you not say that abortion = murder = the ultimate abuse? So again by your own definition.... anyone thinking about an abortion has already made the leap to causing their baby harm.

You were non-existent before you were born? So that nine months your mother carried you, you were non-existent? Heh...I bet your mother would beg to differ on that point. It's early in the morning, so perhaps my brain's not working right just yet. Could you explain this further. I'm sure you're not implying you didn't exist while you were in utero?

In answer to this... yes... before I existed I have no memories of disliking it. I cannot comment on as to whether or not (opens can of worms) anything existed before I was born in all honesty... that is philosophy though. The point being I have no idea if not existing before or after this thing we call life is good or bad.... as I have no memory of before I was alive, and not way of telling (just the likelyhood I see around me) of what it will be like after I am dead.