Military Mis-Conduct

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

and does nothing without litigation to go with it except single your brother out. You are going to ruin his career with this route. Even if your brother is only in for 4 years.. it will be 4 years of hell if you do this wrong.. and it really sounds like you are doing it as wrong as you possibly can.

[phee]

If hazing is an issue... going to the press would seem to increase the chances of it happening as well as the severity.

[Rev.Reverence]

Why?

because I think, as the Citizens PAYING your salary, we have a right for you to act as responsable people??

I expect the same thing from Politicians.

"he who expects, shall be disappointed"

ZEN saying OR Confucius

Carry on...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

and does nothing without litigation to go with it except single your brother out. You are going to ruin his career with this route. Even if your brother is only in for 4 years.. it will be 4 years of hell if you do this wrong.. and it really sounds like you are doing it as wrong as you possibly can.

ohh...thanks Gaf....*knocks head*...I forgot how ABSOLUTELY PERFECT the Military judicial system is above our own...or how insanely bright everyone is over there

*gets a chainsaw to cut through the sarcasm*

First off...it won't single ANYONE out if it's handled right..and it is being handled right...and WILL make waves MUCH FASTER then a litigation with military law...which is a joke in the first place, because they don't enforce half their own laws, and hide corrupt individuals from "civilian law" behind camoflauge curtians.

The military already ruined his future....They have disregarded doctors orders and have now put him back on regular duty, despite the fact he can't even make it over a mile ON pain killers....cuz thats how bad the muscle is...it's not even responding to therapy, and they see fit to put a severely injured body back on regular duty...so don't give me some "you'll never understand how hard the military is" bullshyt....You can get shot on american soil jsut as easy as any other...and I think that the rising rate of violent US crimes proves that....You want "hard"...military life isn't fucking hard....you run around with guns and explosives, waiting for an oppertunity to use them, because your all trained to be hard-up about pulling a trigger or pressing a button that you don't even consider the consequences of the actions your ORDERED to take....and the American public has to worry if the next president around the corner will have to order a draft, because some 4 to 5 star Hal Jordon look-alike has decided that the Snickers bars in Whereeverthefuckastan don't deserve to be there.

All the while, half the countries in the world aren't "allowed" to develop the weapons they will need to protect themselves should the US President decides he wants to push the big red button..and the other half are looking back over their shoulders to see if we got our military pointed at the back of their heads next.

And while your all over there, "fixing" everyone elses problems, your friends and family back home have to deal with a failing economy with rising prices and lack of a decent job market...because a good number of our workforce is off getting artificial limbs and a score card for the number of bullets put into a body.

to put it in a nut shell

"Why shouldn't I work for the N.S.A.? That's a tough one, but I'll take a shot. Say I'm working at N.S.A. Somebody puts a code on my desk, something nobody else can break. Maybe I take a shot at it and maybe I break it. And I'm real happy with myself, 'cause I did my job well. But maybe that code was the location of some rebel army in North Africa or the Middle East. Once they have that location, they bomb the village where the rebels were hiding and fifteen hundred people I never met, never had no problem with, get killed. Now the politicians are sayin', "Oh, send in the Marines to secure the area" 'cause they don't give a shit. It won't be their kid over there, gettin' shot. Just like it wasn't them when their number got called, 'cause they were pullin' a tour in the National Guard. It'll be some kid from Southie takin' shrapnel in the ass. And he comes back to find that the plant he used to work at got exported to the country he just got back from. And the guy who put the shrapnel in his ass got his old job, 'cause he'll work for fifteen cents a day and no bathroom breaks. Meanwhile, he realizes the only reason he was over there in the first place was so we could install a government that would sell us oil at a good price. And, of course, the oil companies used the skirmish over there to scare up domestic oil prices. A cute little ancillary benefit for them, but it ain't helping my buddy at two-fifty a gallon. And they're takin' their sweet time bringin' the oil back, of course, and maybe even took the liberty of hiring an alcoholic skipper who likes to drink martinis and fuckin' play slalom with the icebergs, and it ain't too long 'til he hits one, spills the oil and kills all the sea life in the North Atlantic. So now my buddy's out of work and he can't afford to drive, so he's got to walk to the fuckin' job interviews, which sucks 'cause the shrapnel in his ass is givin' him chronic hemorrhoids. And meanwhile he's starvin', 'cause every time he tries to get a bite to eat, the only blue plate special they're servin' is North Atlantic scrod with Quaker State. So what did I think? I'm holdin' out for somethin' better. I figure fuck it, while I'm at it why not just shoot my buddy, take his job, give it to his sworn enemy, hike up gas prices, bomb a village, club a baby seal, hit the hash pipe and join the National Guard? I could be elected president. "-Good Will Hunting

Fuck the state of the modern US military...it needs revision...and we all know it..so Fuck it as it stands.

[Goth Brooks]

1. no one can order a serviceman to ignore doctor's orders, or to not be treated. your brother's a moron for not having the balls to go against an illegal order.

2. the army's minimum requirement for enlistment is a 33 on the asvab, and as such is the "dumbest" of the 5 branches.

3. your tax contribution to service pay amounts to dick, and equals my own. you disagree with hazing, i agree with it. your opinion is thus negated.

He has had personal property, bought as part of his equipment, stolen by other personal.

this is why you're given lockers and ordered to keep them secured at all times. Gunnery Sgt Hartman sums it up the best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IayHnA0cGuc

"If it wasn't for dickheads like you, there wouldn't be any thievery in this world, would there?"

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

ohh...thanks Gaf....*knocks head*...I forgot how ABSOLUTELY PERFECT the Military judicial system is above our own...or how insanely bright everyone is over there

*gets a chainsaw to cut through the sarcasm*

First off...it won't single ANYONE out if it's handled right..and it is being handled right...and WILL make waves MUCH FASTER then a litigation with military law...which is a joke in the first place, because they don't enforce half their own laws, and hide corrupt individuals from "civilian law" behind camoflauge curtians.

The military already ruined his future....They have disregarded doctors orders and have now put him back on regular duty, despite the fact he can't even make it over a mile ON pain killers....cuz thats how bad the muscle is...it's not even responding to therapy, and they see fit to put a severely injured body back on regular duty...so don't give me some "you'll never understand how hard the military is" bullshyt....You can get shot on american soil jsut as easy as any other...and I think that the rising rate of violent US crimes proves that....You want "hard"...military life isn't fucking hard....you run around with guns and explosives, waiting for an oppertunity to use them, because your all trained to be hard-up about pulling a trigger or pressing a button that you don't even consider the consequences of the actions your ORDERED to take....and the American public has to worry if the next president around the corner will have to order a draft, because some 4 to 5 star Hal Jordon look-alike has decided that the Snickers bars in Whereeverthefuckastan don't deserve to be there.

All the while, half the countries in the world aren't "allowed" to develop the weapons they will need to protect themselves should the US President decides he wants to push the big red button..and the other half are looking back over their shoulders to see if we got our military pointed at the back of their heads next.

And while your all over there, "fixing" everyone elses problems, your friends and family back home have to deal with a failing economy with rising prices and lack of a decent job market...because a good number of our workforce is off getting artificial limbs and a score card for the number of bullets put into a body.

to put it in a nut shell

"Why shouldn't I work for the N.S.A.? That's a tough one, but I'll take a shot. Say I'm working at N.S.A. Somebody puts a code on my desk, something nobody else can break. Maybe I take a shot at it and maybe I break it. And I'm real happy with myself, 'cause I did my job well. But maybe that code was the location of some rebel army in North Africa or the Middle East. Once they have that location, they bomb the village where the rebels were hiding and fifteen hundred people I never met, never had no problem with, get killed. Now the politicians are sayin', "Oh, send in the Marines to secure the area" 'cause they don't give a shit. It won't be their kid over there, gettin' shot. Just like it wasn't them when their number got called, 'cause they were pullin' a tour in the National Guard. It'll be some kid from Southie takin' shrapnel in the ass. And he comes back to find that the plant he used to work at got exported to the country he just got back from. And the guy who put the shrapnel in his ass got his old job, 'cause he'll work for fifteen cents a day and no bathroom breaks. Meanwhile, he realizes the only reason he was over there in the first place was so we could install a government that would sell us oil at a good price. And, of course, the oil companies used the skirmish over there to scare up domestic oil prices. A cute little ancillary benefit for them, but it ain't helping my buddy at two-fifty a gallon. And they're takin' their sweet time bringin' the oil back, of course, and maybe even took the liberty of hiring an alcoholic skipper who likes to drink martinis and fuckin' play slalom with the icebergs, and it ain't too long 'til he hits one, spills the oil and kills all the sea life in the North Atlantic. So now my buddy's out of work and he can't afford to drive, so he's got to walk to the fuckin' job interviews, which sucks 'cause the shrapnel in his ass is givin' him chronic hemorrhoids. And meanwhile he's starvin', 'cause every time he tries to get a bite to eat, the only blue plate special they're servin' is North Atlantic scrod with Quaker State. So what did I think? I'm holdin' out for somethin' better. I figure fuck it, while I'm at it why not just shoot my buddy, take his job, give it to his sworn enemy, hike up gas prices, bomb a village, club a baby seal, hit the hash pipe and join the National Guard? I could be elected president. "-Good Will Hunting

Fuck the state of the modern US military...it needs revision...and we all know it..so Fuck it as it stands.

So, what you really saying is.. you don't like the military or the US government and you're using your brothers minor injury as justification to go off on a nut.

Yes, I said minor. It's a pulled muscle. Who the fuck goes to physical theropy for a pulled muscle? It's the most common sports injury there is. The treatment is pretty standard.. put ice on it and take a damn asprin.

[Guest Megalicious]

Play nice please. Thank you

[phee]

What she said....

[phee]

Keep it civil.... Please

I am with Meg on this one.

If you are not going to be civil... THAT'S FINE.... but it needs to go to PMs

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Keep it civil.... Please

I am with Meg on this one.

If you are not going to be civil... THAT'S FINE.... but it needs to go to PMs

how about an opinion on the matter, phee? How do you feel about the the state of the modern military, especially the amount of abusive hazing and lack of proper medical treatment?

[phee]

how about an opinion on the matter, phee? How do you feel about the the state of the modern military, especially the amount of abusive hazing and lack of proper medical treatment?

Honestly... I have not been in the military, I only know what I have heard or read about... I don't have enough first hand info to give a well informed opinion about this. From what I hear, this kind of thing is not abnormal, and I am not sure if it should be or not.

Before I comment on the state of the modern military, I really would need to have more information and first hand experience. I have read about the lack of medical treatment for soldiers returning from active duty and I admit it sounds bad... but that sounds like a different subject from the hazing that you describe.

[Goth Brooks]

how about an opinion on the matter, phee? How do you feel about the the state of the modern military, especially the amount of abusive hazing and lack of proper medical treatment?

Lack of proper medical treatment?

Every morning you are asked to fall out if you even think you have something wrong.

He didn't, he's a moron.

And if you want hazing, he should've joined between 1775 and the 80/90s... Hazing exists but is nothing compared.

Tell him to stop whining or join the peace corps.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Honestly... I have not been in the military, I only know what I have heard or read about... I don't have enough first hand info to give a well informed opinion about this. From what I hear, this kind of thing is not abnormal, and I am not sure if it should be or not.

Before I comment on the state of the modern military, I really would need to have more information and first hand experience. I have read about the lack of medical treatment for soldiers returning from active duty and I admit it sounds bad... but that sounds like a different subject from the hazing that you describe.

I also mentioned the medical mistreatment in my OP....this is all the same ball of wax...it falls under the same umbrella for Military Misconduct.

[phee]

I also mentioned the medical mistreatment in my OP....this is all the same ball of wax...it falls under the same umbrella for Military Misconduct.

As I said... from what I have read... our military does a lot of shady things, and I am not happy about it. But on the issue that you bring up....

I am not afraid to admit that I don't know.

There are subjects I feel confident about stating an opinion about.... this is not one of them.

[odims_sphere]

how about an opinion on the matter, phee? How do you feel about the the state of the modern military, especially the amount of abusive hazing and lack of proper medical treatment?

opinion..

I've been in 12 years, never once been a part of hazing nor even heard of an actual case of it. in fact there are yearly briefings we are required to attend discouraging hazing under penalty of UCMJ action.

As for medical treatment.. If received standard care for every injury and ailment with no threat of personal attack or discharge from the military, furthermore I've never even heard of something like that happening. In fact the military encourages you to seek medical attention when you're "broke" a broke soldier can't do his job, and if that's the case you are useless to the military. They don't want that. It's hard enough keeping people in as it is, they certainly don't want people getting out because something was NOT reported. I can't tell you how many times I heard "document every scratch, sneeze, cough whatever" so that the army can fix it.

Sounds to me like it's something blown way out of proportion.

Thank you,

SGT Gransden, US Army

961st en co

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

As I said... from what I have read... our military does a lot of shady things, and I am not happy about it.

thats all I needed to hear, phee...thank you

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

, for a pulled muscle below his knee.

Your words. Oh but wait, you then went on to say it was damaged. Damaged how? You seem to know so much.. what muscle is damaged and how is it damaged? What is your brother's exact prognosis? I don't have to be a doctor to use WebMD and look up what the standard treatment is.

Just an FYI for you. I never shaved in the Army. Ever. I went to the doctor and said that it hurt and made my acne worse... I got a profile out of it that allowed me to just use clippers to keep it short. The docs took my word on it. My point is... your brother getting a few days of light duty from one of the docs on base means exactly shit.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Your words. Oh but wait, you then went on to say it was damaged. Damaged how? You seem to know so much.. what muscle is damaged and how is it damaged? What is your brother's exact prognosis? I don't have to be a doctor to use WebMD and look up what the standard treatment is.

Just an FYI for you. I never shaved in the Army. Ever. I went to the doctor and said that it hurt and made my acne worse... I got a profile out of it that allowed me to just use clippers to keep it short. The docs took my word on it. My point is... your brother getting a few days of light duty from one of the docs on base means exactly shit.

the doctor that gave him the light duty...and told him it was a damaged muscle...was OFF base...because on base medical told him they didn't have the equipment to diagnose it properly.

[TygerLili]

In response to this:

which is excatly why we're not going about it with litigation....we're going about it by power of Press...makes bigger shockwaves

I have to agree with this:

and does nothing without litigation to go with it except single your brother out. You are going to ruin his career with this route. Even if your brother is only in for 4 years.. it will be 4 years of hell if you do this wrong.. and it really sounds like you are doing it as wrong as you possibly can.

And this:

If hazing is an issue... going to the press would seem to increase the chances of it happening as well as the severity.

Unsubstantiated whining without proof that he went through all the proper channels will only damage his credibility.

I don't know anything about military proceedings, but I do know that this story, at least as you tell it, has some discrepancies.

[phee]

In response to this:

I have to agree with this:

And this:

Unsubstantiated whining without proof that he went through all the proper channels will only damage his credibility.

I don't know anything about military proceedings, but I do know that this story, at least as you tell it, has some discrepancies.

Pretty much.... since Hazing is a form of bullying... I cannot think of one time in my life when the bully stopped because I "told on him" or "got him in trouble".... generally speaking it only got better when I took care of it on my own.

I am not saying that this is the same thing. But it seems like given the information, it would make things much worse as oppossed to better for your brother.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

1. no one can order a serviceman to ignore doctor's orders, or to not be treated. your brother's a moron for not having the balls to go against an illegal order.

except you need a military court of law to properly dictate when an order is illegal....so there goes that theory....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

the doctor that gave him the light duty...and told him it was a damaged muscle...was OFF base...because on base medical told him they didn't have the equipment to diagnose it properly.

Excuse me? Camp Pendleton's hospital doesn't have the equipment to diagnose a muscle injury? Camp Pendleton Hospital... which is also a major hospital for the Red Cross? It's a 150 bed hospital with it's own 911 district.

Do you know how ridiculous you sound?

[Fin]

Godfallen--I am not military, but I have trained extensively with military physicians. One thing you may have overlooked is the possibility that your brother is just frustrated & needs to vent. Obviously what he does not need is an escalation of his current problem. Perhaps--& I say this because I don't know him--he just needs for someone outside the situation to hear him & to empathize. Afterwards, if there's any way he can keep quiet & do what he's ordered to do in the short-run, my own limited experience suggests that things will work out much better for him in the long run. Just a nickel's worth. My hat's off to all current & former military personnel.

[TitsMcGee]

I'm willing to bet it's not so much the college types that are doing this. It's the "I have no other alternative" types that are already on the shady side of the law before they joined up.

My brother recieved 3 different scholarships when he graduated high school and still joined the Marines, so yes college types are joining up because they want to serve their country. And as for the shady side of the law, no that's not the Marines. In the Marines you need a waiver for every minor infraction. My brother got in trouble once in high school that was extremely minor and it still took six months of wrangling to get the waiver.

I like to chalk some of it up to the fact that you only need a 40 percent on the test to be accepted into the Marines...least it was 5 years ago when I applied.

Thats the lowest accepted score out of any branch of the armed services....so we have a bunch of "just-capable" ppl as a front line forces....anyone else find it funny that we're sending the stupid ppl in first????

Stupid people? Really? Because I could call you a few things right now but I have more class than that. First of all not everyone is infantry, and the ones that are have more balls than most men. My brother for example works with computers, so I don't think you would classify him as "stupid" would you?

I believe the technical term is "cannon-fodder".

..They say they are "protecting" us...

See above. And yes they are protecting you and me. It takes a special type of person to put other peoples lives before their own. People tend to forget that fact.

ok...then I will clarify...my brother is not only carrying his weight....he has covered, on several occasions, for other Marines so they could go party...AFTER they falsely reported and injury...and yes..he has proof. What is happening to him is because he doesn't agree with all the bullshyt their doing, and doesn't feel the need to "go be one of the guys" every week, according to his beliefs.

Yeah so does my brother and I don't hear him bitching. He actually voulenteered to "babysit" the fuckups on the 4th of July instead of taking the day off like he was offered. My brother also gets shit from the guys because he doesn't go out with them and get drunk, and usually I'm the one who gets more pissed off when I hear they are giving him shit. Sometimes you've just got to let things go.

I get that you want to help out your brother, but right now if you go through with the press stuff you're going to cause more harm than good.

Thank you,

SGT Gransden, US Army

961st en co

From the bottom of my heart thank you for your service to this country.

[Goth Brooks]

except you need a military court of law to properly dictate when an order is illegal....so there goes that theory....

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

"Your first decision, upon receiving any and every order from a superior, is to decide whether or not it is illegal."

One of the first things told to me by my Btn CO upon entering basic.

It is the soldier's duty to carry out all legal orders, and to refuse any illegal order. It is a military court's duty as to whether or not the soldier's call was correct.

This is why they are given classes on the UCMJ in the first place.