Military Mis-Conduct

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

This isn't an "official" story, but I have second hand information on the extensive degree of military hazing and improper conduct happening on a constant basis among our troops.

My younger brother is stationed at Camp Pendleton, near San Diego. His dream has long been military service, and he graduated with honors in October. Recently, towards the end of June, he was transfered to a Helio squad stationed at Camp Pendleton. Since then, his life has become hell, due to a swarm of what I would Love to call "conduct unbecoming a marine"

He, and several others, have been forciblly held down and their gas mask canister removed, while in a room full of tear gas. These several people have been targeted every time, even though there is supposed to be a rotation.

He has had personal property, bought as part of his equipment, stolen by other personal.

He was forced, under the threat of dishonorable discharge, to not seek medical treatment, either on or off base, for a pulled muscle below his knee. That muscle is now severely damaged, and on the verge of being dead, due to it's inability to respond to therapy. Doctors have told him that, had it been treated sooner, it would have increased the probability of success by 40 %.

He is currently being framed for possession of illegal alchohalic substances, even though it was found on the far side of the barracks in someone elses possession.

According to what he has told me, he is not the only one that such actions are happening too.

Since when did our tax dollars go to pay a whole bunch of wanna be college kids to act like this? and WHY are their superior officers not doing jack about it, but rather threatening Marines with dishonorable discharge should they report any of this??

Is this the future of our military?? Don't we deserve to expect better from organizations that have sworn to uphold and protect our most cherished values?? These guys haven't even left base, and their acting like this...why should we trust them to act in any sort of decent behavior when across seas??

I understand there is alot of pressure with the service that our military provides, and the comfert of safety that we generally have as Americans is largely in-part ot the service of our men and women across seas...and I, like MANY, MANY other americans, appreciate that...but that appreciation for the service you provide this company comes with responsibilities and a certian behavioral attitude that is expected. I don't expect a Fortune 500 executive to run up and slap another executive in the face, and I damn well don't expect one soldier to treat another soldier like what is happening now. How do you expect proper bonding as a team...almost a family....with treatment like this.

[Destroit]

...WOW.

*loses hope in America*

[Msterbeau]

I'm willing to bet it's not so much the college types that are doing this. It's the "I have no other alternative" types that are already on the shady side of the law before they joined up. As for the superiors who overlook or condone this sort of activity, there's no excuse. I'm guessing that this is one of the not-so-positive by-products of a volunteer military.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I'm willing to bet it's not so much the college types that are doing this. It's the "I have no other alternative" types that are already on the shady side of the law before they joined up. As for the superiors who overlook or condone this sort of activity, there's no excuse. I'm guessing that this is one of the not-so-positive by-products of a volunteer military.

I like to chalk some of it up to the fact that you only need a 40 percent on the test to be accepted into the Marines...least it was 5 years ago when I applied.

Thats the lowest accepted score out of any branch of the armed services....so we have a bunch of "just-capable" ppl as a front line forces....anyone else find it funny that we're sending the stupid ppl in first????

[Msterbeau]

I like to chalk some of it up to the fact that you only need a 40 percent on the test to be accepted into the Marines...least it was 5 years ago when I applied.

Thats the lowest accepted score out of any branch of the armed services....so we have a bunch of "just-capable" ppl as a front line forces....anyone else find it funny that we're sending the stupid ppl in first????

Maybe it's a form of Darwinsm...

[phee]

I know that is part of basic training.... going into a gas room and having your mask removed.

[Rev.Reverence]

I like to chalk some of it up to the fact that you only need a 40 percent on the test to be accepted into the Marines...least it was 5 years ago when I applied.

Thats the lowest accepted score out of any branch of the armed services....so we have a bunch of "just-capable" ppl as a front line forces....anyone else find it funny that we're sending the stupid ppl in first????

I believe the technical term is "cannon-fodder".

..They say they are "protecting" us...

[Rev.Reverence]

I know that is part of basic training.... going into a gas room and having your mask removed.

Yes...as precaution against "catastrophic failure"...a couple of times or so...not a bunch of times...& your supposed to take your own equipment off...& Have it ready to put back on...tear gas can kill some peoples, that may not have been weeded out in the recruitment process.

He, and several others, have been forciblly held down and their gas mask canister removed, while in a room full of tear gas. These several people have been targeted every time, even though there is supposed to be a rotation.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I know that is part of basic training.... going into a gas room and having your mask removed.

yeah...but when it's the same guys targeted over a period of a few weeks, phee....thats not training anymore....thats hazing...and I have talked about it with a few other ppl I know in the military...no-one said anything about part of the training being holding the individual helpless....I'm not saying that their not trying to up the ante...but if it's being added as part of a hazing project by other soldiers...then thats wrong.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I was gassed over 50 times in basic training. There was the official training exorcise in the tent where we had to say our name, soc and home address before we could leave the tent and then there was the week of hell in the field. We were gassed all the time. Sometimes... while were were sleeping... sometimes in the chow line... sometimes in the "bathroom" at the firring range.

Your brother needs to talk to his Platoon Sgt. If that does no good, his First Sgt and if that fails, his XO. If your brother has a muscle failing in his leg, he needs to report it and then explain why he did not report it sooner. He could get in some trouble because you are required to report all injuries. He could be charged for destruction of government property if there is permanent damage and dereliction of duty.

BTW... what you are describing sounds like the normal hazing that is done to people that are not carrying their own weight. People are that "targetted" are seen as fuck ups that are dragging the rest down.

You cant get a dishonarable discharge for going to the doctor. You can get one for not following orders or faking an injury.

[SaGa]

starship troopers comes to mind with the knife in the guys hand

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I was gassed over 50 times in basic training. There was the official training exorcise in the tent where we had to say our name, soc and home address before we could leave the tent and then there was the week of hell in the field. We were gassed all the time. Sometimes... while were were sleeping... sometimes in the chow line... sometimes in the "bathroom" at the firring range.

Your brother needs to talk to his Platoon Sgt. If that does no good, his First Sgt and if that fails, his XO. If your brother has a muscle failing in his leg, he needs to report it and then explain why he did not report it sooner. He could get in some trouble because you are required to report all injuries. He could be charged for destruction of government property if there is permanent damage and dereliction of duty.

BTW... what you are describing sounds like the normal hazing that is done to people that are not carrying their own weight. People are that "targetted" are seen as fuck ups that are dragging the rest down.

You cant get a dishonarable discharge for going to the doctor. You can get one for not following orders or faking an injury.

ok...then I will clarify...my brother is not only carrying his weight....he has covered, on several occasions, for other Marines so they could go party...AFTER they falsely reported and injury...and yes..he has proof. What is happening to him is because he doesn't agree with all the bullshyt their doing, and doesn't feel the need to "go be one of the guys" every week, according to his beliefs.

He DID report the failing muscle as soon as it started happening...and they ORDERED him not to seek medical attention, either on or off base. His Platoon Sgt. is the one who MADE that order....My brother has even seen the Sgt. Major...and nothing has been done. If the MILITARY is the one ordering you NOT to seek medical attention....thats what many citizens could classify as "conduct unbecoming", would it not?

again...I understand that a certian amount of hazing happens...but when it happens to a degree that it is causing life changing injuries and to the point where certian members are singled out, which is my brothers case, then thats not part of the lifestyle....or shouldn't be.

He has been singled out...along with several other soldiers, because they don't feel the need to go party at strip clubs and get wasted every weekend. My brother did that before....and ended up broke because he paid everyone elses tab at the bar (they convinced him that he was "helping out a fellow marine"). I understand that that incident is his fault (you think having to live with me would have wisened him up to things like that), but when the hazing and similar abusive punishment is happening because you choose NOT to go out and blow your money on a bunch of irresponsible people every weekend.....thats NOT what we, as american citizens, should have to look forward to as the future of our military.

So Gaf....while I understand that gassing proceedeure (though I disagree that HOLDING SPECIFIC soldiers down all the time and subjecting them to that is "proceedure"), everything else is unnessicary. Also...this isn't basic training anymore...he's done with that.

And all do respect, Gaf.....my brother isn't the kind to NOT carry his own weight..he has ALWAYS been very athletic and responsiable...and i know you can chalk that up to "big brother talk", but I know my blood....he "tows the line"....

[odims_sphere]

I was gassed over 50 times in basic training. There was the official training exorcise in the tent where we had to say our name, soc and home address before we could leave the tent and then there was the week of hell in the field. We were gassed all the time. Sometimes... while were were sleeping... sometimes in the chow line... sometimes in the "bathroom" at the firring range.

Your brother needs to talk to his Platoon Sgt. If that does no good, his First Sgt and if that fails, his XO. If your brother has a muscle failing in his leg, he needs to report it and then explain why he did not report it sooner. He could get in some trouble because you are required to report all injuries. He could be charged for destruction of government property if there is permanent damage and dereliction of duty.

BTW... what you are describing sounds like the normal hazing that is done to people that are not carrying their own weight. People are that "targetted" are seen as fuck ups that are dragging the rest down.

You cant get a dishonarable discharge for going to the doctor. You can get one for not following orders or faking an injury.

Agreed.

Actually what the story sounds like to me could be one of several things:

1. (and this is most likely IMO), It's an exaggeration of what really happened. Remember we've only heard one side.

2. It's strictly a Marine corp thing. 12 years in the army including 1 year in Iraq and I've never heard of anything like this.

3. It's an isolated incident and NOT a reflection of the military in general.

If he's followed Gaf's advice about utilizing the chain of command and still has no results he can always file an IG complaint. They will review the case and take whatever appropriate action is required. Being that they are not associated with the unit they will be impartial bodies to the case and he can get a "fair shake". But he had better be sure he's not just being a whiny fuck up because an IG complaint is very serious and could potentially have the opposite effect if it's not a legitimate complaint.

[CandyQuackenbush]

This thread fucking sickens me.

You think that just because we haze new troops, or fuck up once in awhile, that is any way to trash talk?

Guess know one here ever heard of a Frat or Srority. They do dumb shit all the time, and thats our FUTURE.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

ok...then I will clarify...my brother is not only carrying his weight....he has covered, on several occasions, for other Marines so they could go party...AFTER they falsely reported and injury...and yes..he has proof. What is happening to him is because he doesn't agree with all the bullshyt their doing, and doesn't feel the need to "go be one of the guys" every week, according to his beliefs.

He DID report the failing muscle as soon as it started happening...and they ORDERED him not to seek medical attention, either on or off base. His Platoon Sgt. is the one who MADE that order....My brother has even seen the Sgt. Major...and nothing has been done. If the MILITARY is the one ordering you NOT to seek medical attention....thats what many citizens could classify as "conduct unbecoming", would it not?

again...I understand that a certian amount of hazing happens...but when it happens to a degree that it is causing life changing injuries and to the point where certian members are singled out, which is my brothers case, then thats not part of the lifestyle....or shouldn't be.

He has been singled out...along with several other soldiers, because they don't feel the need to go party at strip clubs and get wasted every weekend. My brother did that before....and ended up broke because he paid everyone elses tab at the bar (they convinced him that he was "helping out a fellow marine"). I understand that that incident is his fault (you think having to live with me would have wisened him up to things like that), but when the hazing and similar abusive punishment is happening because you choose NOT to go out and blow your money on a bunch of irresponsible people every weekend.....thats NOT what we, as american citizens, should have to look forward to as the future of our military.

So Gaf....while I understand that gassing proceedeure (though I disagree that HOLDING SPECIFIC soldiers down all the time and subjecting them to that is "proceedure"), everything else is unnessicary. Also...this isn't basic training anymore...he's done with that.

And all do respect, Gaf.....my brother isn't the kind to NOT carry his own weight..he has ALWAYS been very athletic and responsiable...and i know you can chalk that up to "big brother talk", but I know my blood....he "tows the line"....

I wasn't trying to disrespect your brother, I dont know him. I do know the military. Your brother needs to find some median with his fellow soldiers. It doesn't matter how much we think he is towing the line and it doesn't matter if he thinks he is. He has to convince his fellows of that. I'm not sure what he needs to do and I don;t think any of us will be able to tell him what he needs to do. He has to figure that out. He is either part of the team or he isn't.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

This thread fucking sickens me.

You think that just because we haze new troops, or fuck up once in awhile, that is any way to trash talk?

Guess know one here ever heard of a Frat or Srority. They do dumb shit all the time, and thats our FUTURE.

You all sicken me.

Why?

because I think, as the Citizens PAYING your salary, we have a right for you to act as responsable people??

I expect the same thing from Politicians.

I'm not paying a Fraternities education...their parents do that...but, unless you missed it...hazing in colleges is prohibited as well...just because they still do it, doesn't mean it's right...or acceptable behavior....in fact...it's punishable by expulsion.

And I NEVER trash talked anyone...I stated FACTS....just like I do in all my arguements. It's a FACT that they ORDERED him NOT to seek medical attention, either on or off base, for over a week after he reported the injury. There are VOICEMAILS of half the crap going on there that he is dealing with.

so if we happen to "sicken" you because we EXPECT you to act RESPONSIABLE.....then please....continue to be sickened...because WE will continue to EXPECT the U.S. Military to act with some damn responsibilty and basic human respect.

[CandyQuackenbush]

Why?

because I think, as the Citizens PAYING your salary, we have a right for you to act as responsable people??

I expect the same thing from Politicians.

I'm not paying a Fraternities education...their parents do that...but, unless you missed it...hazing in colleges is prohibited as well...just because they still do it, doesn't mean it's right...or acceptable behavior....in fact...it's punishable by expulsion.

And I NEVER trash talked anyone...I stated FACTS....just like I do in all my arguements. It's a FACT that they ORDERED him NOT to seek medical attention, either on or off base, for over a week after he reported the injury. There are VOICEMAILS of half the crap going on there that he is dealing with.

so if we happen to "sicken" you because we EXPECT you to act RESPONSIABLE.....then please....continue to be sickened...because WE will continue to EXPECT the U.S. Military to act with some damn responsibilty and basic human respect.

So tell your brother to file a damn IG complaint. If this is so hard for him, then he needs to fill a 1559, not come complaining to you. YOU can't fix anything, but post about what you heard and how bad he has it.

EVERYONE deals with this. It happens. Esp if you are a Marine. They live in close quarters, and in dangerous areas for a good portion of their enlistments.

You need to know your not stating facts. You are stating what we like to call "Hear Say". Thanks for pointing out that you are infact starting an arguement. It does help.

And you are NEVER ordered to seek medical care, if it can be resloved there and then they try to do what they can with out having paperwork or higher ups involved. You do NOT know how it goes, so please, stop living through him.

And you talk about what you EXPECT outta us? Well maybe you should go through training and do what we do, go where we go and come back and we can sit and talk allllllll about it.

WE EXPECT that we would be treated like humans when we get back, but instead, when we get back from our tours. Do we, NO. We get divorces because our spouses steal our money, or divorce us before we can even get home. We loose our homes because the banks that said they'd work with us 10 months ago, said that they never did. Our jobs are given to some kid that just likes to create drama because he will work for less, so then we have no job to come home to. We try to go to the VA to get our medica attention, but instead, we wait in lines, at a place that is supposed to help us, but we are shot down.

Doesn't that just sound amazing to come home to?

*edited because I had to squeeze in more FACTS*

[phee]

WE EXPECT that we would be treated like humans when we get back, but instead, when we get back from our tours. Do we, NO. We get divorces because our spouses steal our money, or divorce us before we can even get home. We loose our homes because the banks that said they'd work with us 10 months ago, said that they never did. Our jobs are given to some kid that just likes to create drama because he will work for less, so then we have no job to come home to. We try to go to the VA to get our medica attention, but instead, we wait in lines, at a place that is supposed to help us, but we are shot down.

Doesn't that just sound amazing to come home to?

It sounds like there are a lot of issues being brought to the surface here

and

It sounds like these are valid points and a good topic for discussion... not sure if it quite fits in the thread that GFP started though....

Would you mind terribly if this became its own topic?

[CandyQuackenbush]

It sounds like there are a lot of issues being brought to the surface here

and

It sounds like these are valid points and a good topic for discussion... not sure if it quite fits in the thread that GFP started though....

Would you mind terribly if this became its own topic?

I don't care...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

So tell your brother to file a damn IG complaint. If this is so hard for him, then he needs to fill a 1559, not come complaining to you. YOU can't fix anything, but post about what you heard and how bad he has it.

I CAN work on fixing it...and I am in the process of doing such...because MEDIA exposure of such things will make people take notice...and I have already started, as of this morning, putting things into play that, should PROPER steps not be taken, will garner the activities of military hazing ALOT of national attention.

EVERYONE deals with this. It happens. Esp if you are a Marine. They live in close quarters, and in dangerous areas for a good portion of their enlistments.

How is this an excuse for their behavior??

You need to know your not stating facts. You are stating what we like to call "Hear Say". Thanks for pointing out that you are infact starting an arguement. It does help.

yes...it's technically hearsay...except for the fact that you ADMITTED that the said hazing DOES happen...then it isn't hearsay anymore, because it can be colaberated by more then two sources.

And you are NEVER ordered to seek medical care, if it can be resloved there and then they try to do what they can with out having paperwork or higher ups involved. You do NOT know how it goes, so please, stop living through him.

He was never ordered to seek medial care...but he was ORDERED AGAINST seeking medical care, both on and off base, even when he had APPOINTMENTS ON BASE.

And you talk about what you EXPECT outta us? Well maybe you should go through training and do what we do, go where we go and come back and we can sit and talk allllllll about it.

American CITIZENS pay your salary....so yes...we get to EXPECT certian things out of US. Military....just like we GET to expect certain actions out of our Politicians. Wheither they happen or not only moves our judgement of the subject one way or another. If you don't like it....then don't be in the military....or did you forget that being part of the US. military makes in SERVICE of the US PUBLIC.

WE EXPECT that we would be treated like humans when we get back, but instead, when we get back from our tours. Do we, NO. We get divorces because our spouses steal our money, or divorce us before we can even get home. We loose our homes because the banks that said they'd work with us 10 months ago, said that they never did. Our jobs are given to some kid that just likes to create drama because he will work for less, so then we have no job to come home to. We try to go to the VA to get our medica attention, but instead, we wait in lines, at a place that is supposed to help us, but we are shot down.

And there are PLENTY of people out there working to change that....so while the CITIZENS are on this side of the seas working on making sure you get your due....WE, the AMERICAN PEOPLE, expect some kind of civilized behavior from OUR military branches...if you can't do that...then maybe those people working for BETTER treatment of soldiers shouldn't work so hard either.

Doesn't that just sound amazing to come home to?

no...actually...it sounds fucking aweful....and I'm sorry it's like that....but theres ALOT of peoples lives that are like that...and many of those people never even join the military.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'm sorry, it's still Hear Say. What is or is not happening to your brother.

Lets look at his leg problems.

Have you actually seen his leg? Have you seen him walk on it? Maybe his leg isn't bad enough to go to a doctor. maybe a trip to the doctor is a waste of MY time. I am paying your brother after all. It's, as you say, a pulled muscle. Last time I had one, I took an over the counter analgesic and sucked it up.

Honestly, what you described does not warrant the wasted expense of a doctors visits, the lost time of the Doctor to tell your brother to take an asprina and walk it off or the wasted man power of your brother being gone.

Let me just fill you in on something. Your brother is in the Marines. He does not have the same Rights he did before he joined. He belongs to the Marines. He isn't subject to the sames laws or judicial system as you and I are. He either plays by the Military rules or he gets run over by them.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I'm sorry, it's still Hear Say. What is or is not happening to your brother.

Lets look at his leg problems.

Have you actually seen his leg? Have you seen him walk on it? Maybe his leg isn't bad enough to go to a doctor. maybe a trip to the doctor is a waste of MY time. I am paying your brother after all. It's, as you say, a pulled muscle. Last time I had one, I took an over the counter analgesic and sucked it up.

Honestly, what you described does not warrant the wasted expense of a doctors visits, the lost time of the Doctor to tell your brother to take an asprina and walk it off or the wasted man power of your brother being gone.

Let me just fill you in on something. Your brother is in the Marines. He does not have the same Rights he did before he joined. He belongs to the Marines. He isn't subject to the sames laws or judicial system as you and I are. He either plays by the Military rules or he gets run over by them.

oh...so your saying that he isn't human anymore???....Marines aren't allowed ot have the same rights as the rest of the US?...their not expected to act civilized or responsiable because they are Marines....yeah...does that sound like BULLSHYT to anyone else?? Stop making excuses for sub-standard treatment!!!!

Gaf....when he DID go see the doctor monday...they told him he wasn't allowed to lift/ carry anything over 40 lbs....thats not right...he is on light duty for 6 weeks...if it wasn't serious...they wouldn't have done that

again...THERE IS NO REASONABLE EXPLINATION ON WHY ANYONE IS GETTING TREATED LIKE THIS when the MAJORITY of our tax dollars go into such things as PAYMENT of the services that are allowed in the military....sounds to me like 3rd-world counties got better health care then any member of the US. Marine.

and he may have to "play by military" rules...but when the rules are wrong...or detremetal OUTSIDE OF REASON to the health and well-being of another human being....then those rules are INADEQUATE and need to be revised...and I don't "have to play by military rules"...so I CAN cause fucking hell and see how much the military likes it...and I will.

and Gaf..according to law...it's not hearsay if there is evidance and two -or more- admittances that events such as this, happen.

[ManicQueen]

Why is this even a topic of discussion?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Your whole post was based off words you put in my mouth. I didn't say he wasn't human.

I am saying he signed a contract, willingly, that surrended many of his Rights.

In this case, unless he has absolute physical proof in hand that an order given is illegal, he has to follow it until such time as he does have the proof. There are legal channels he has to follow to present that proof and face the consequances if they do not stand up in trial. A military trial, under Military Law. Not civilian law. There are major differences.

The big kicker is, your brother has to have proof that he was orderd to not seek medical help. If he can;t, it opens him up to all kinds of litigation.

If you really want to help your brother, tell him to either get a lawyer or tell him to shut up and do what he is told.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Your whole post was based off words you put in my mouth. I didn't say he wasn't human.

I am saying he signed a contract, willingly, that surrended many of his Rights.

In this case, unless he has absolute physical proof in hand that an order given is illegal, he has to follow it until such time as he does have the proof. There are legal channels he has to follow to present that proof and face the consequances if they do not stand up in trial. A military trial, under Military Law. Not civilian law. There are major differences.

The big kicker is, your brother has to have proof that he was orderd to not seek medical help. If he can;t, it opens him up to all kinds of litigation.

If you really want to help your brother, tell him to either get a lawyer or tell him to shut up and do what he is told.

which is excatly why we're not going about it with litigation....we're going about it by power of Press...makes bigger shockwaves