Left-Wing..Right-Wing...It's all the same fuckin' Bird..

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, liberal, conservative...whatever...

I got one thing to say to all of it....or rather...Edward Norton does

Mirror Monologue- 25th Hour

The way he thinks about NYC...I think about this stupid division of politics that seems to force one side against the other every day of the year.

[Rev.Reverence]

Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, liberal, conservative...whatever...

I got one thing to say to all of it....or rather...Edward Norton does

Mirror Monologue- 25th Hour

The way he thinks about NYC...I think about this stupid division of politics that seems to force one side against the other every day of the year.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Can you possibly explain that statement?

You used the "N" word... it confused me...

Sure. Things that Libertairans beleive in... as taken from thier web page.

We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.

We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.

Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.

We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things, and hold that where governments exist, they must not violate the rights of any individual: namely, (1) the right to life -- accordingly we support the prohibition of the initiation of physical force against others; (2) the right to liberty of speech and action -- accordingly we oppose all attempts by government to abridge the freedom of speech and press, as well as government censorship in any form; and (3) the right to property -- accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

1.1 Expression and Communication

We support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.

1.2 Personal Privacy

We support the protections provided by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, and property. Only actions that infringe on the rights of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating "crimes" without victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the rights of individuals by government, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships.

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

1.5 Crime and Justice

Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution of the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.

1.6 Self-Defense

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the right to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

2.0 Economic Liberty

A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.

2.1 Property and Contract

Property rights are entitled to the same protection as all other human rights. The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever. Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.

2.2 Environment

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.

2.3 Energy and Resources

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.

2.4 Government Finance and Spending

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

2.5 Money and Financial Markets

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository institutions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies, the repeal of legal tender laws and compulsory governmental units of account.

2.6 Monopolies and Corporations

We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.

2.7 Labor Markets

We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

2.8 Education

Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Schools should be managed locally to achieve greater accountability and parental involvement. Recognizing that the education of children is inextricably linked to moral values, we would return authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. In particular, parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.

2.9 Health Care

We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want, the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of their medical care, including end-of-life decisions.

2.10 Retirement and Income Security

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. We favor replacing the current government-sponsored Social Security system with a private voluntary system. The proper source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.

3.0 Securing Liberty

The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world and avoid entangling alliances. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

3.2 Internal Security and Individual Rights

The defense of the country requires that we have adequate intelligence to detect and to counter threats to domestic security. This requirement must not take priority over maintaining the civil liberties of our citizens. The Bill of Rights provides no exceptions for a time of war. Intelligence agencies that legitimately seek to preserve the security of the nation must be subject to oversight and transparency. We oppose the government's use of secret classifications to keep from the public information that it should have, especially that which shows that the government has violated the law.

3.3 International Affairs

American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world and its defense against attack from abroad. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention, including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by political or revolutionary groups.

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a threat to security, health or property.

3.5 Rights and Discrimination

We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.

3.6 Representative Government

We support electoral systems that are more representative of the electorate at the federal, state and local levels. As private voluntary groups, political parties should be allowed to establish their own rules for nomination procedures, primaries and conventions. We call for an end to any tax-financed subsidies to candidates or parties and the repeal of all laws which restrict voluntary financing of election campaigns. We oppose laws that effectively exclude alternative candidates and parties, deny ballot access, gerrymander districts, or deny the voters their right to consider all legitimate alternatives.

3.7 Self-Determination

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of individual liberty, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to agree to such new governance as to them shall seem most likely to protect their liberty.

4.0 Omissions

Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should not be construed to imply approval.

Almost all of thier beleifs are counter to the Democratic or Republican partys beleifs.

[Rev.Reverence]

Sure. Things that Libertairans beleive in... as taken from thier web page.

Almost all of thier beleifs are counter to the Democratic or Republican partys beleifs.

I see that each point put forth (that I understand) opposes either/or the Rep.s OR Dem.s

..DAMN... THEY ROCK!

So... like, why do they NOT have the full support of ALL the GLBT communities? (point 1.3)

I am not particularly fond of the wording of point 1.6...(but it is a minor discrepancy & the only ONE I had)

Gee... point 2.3 (hail Eris)... ROCKS! & I did not know that that was even a possibility for a politician.

Point 2.4 is the reason I liked them in the first place...

CAN YOU...(anyone)... help me to better understand point 2.8? 2.9? & 2.10?

(typing "2.10" made me laugh!)

Point 3.1 is a fucking astounding revelation! <-(read as sarcastic remark)

WOAH! Points 3.2-6 JUST KEEP GETTIN' BETTER & BETTER!... & I REALLY LIKE THE WORDING IN point 4.

Thanx DUDE!

That I think was the best read I've had since the programmers manual for the MC-909...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

"2.10 Retirement and Income Security

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. We favor replacing the current government-sponsored Social Security system with a private voluntary system. The proper source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals."

this point alone scared the hell out of me for EVER voting for a Libertarian. If the retirement planning and help for the poor is left to the efforts of private groups and individuals, then the poor are much worse off. Many of these private groups CHOOSE who they help, either by religious affiliation or by a whim. The goverment funded projects try to do what they can, but they can't help everyone, but they are also completely used with an unbiased verdict, usually having rules regarding length of stay, number of applications allowed, etc.

Private groups, usually religious, DEMAND your commitment to THEIR religious beliefs, and I have WITNESSED that physically violent collection of a person's private funds, be it temp work pay, disablility check, etc...BY the same group that claims to be there for the poor.

DOWN WITH LIBERTARIANS!!!!

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I think you would be best served to have a Libertatian explain them.. but you can PM me specific questions and I'll see what I can do.

[Nightgaunt]

I've always voted Libertarian, but Bob Barr gives me the wiggins. I'm not even sure why. Just get a bad feeling from this guy, like he's a Neocon in Libertarian clothing. I wish Ron Paul hadn't dropped out...

[Rev.Reverence]

I've always voted Libertarian, but Bob Barr gives me the wiggins. I'm not even sure why. Just get a bad feeling from this guy, like he's a Neocon in Libertarian clothing. I wish Ron Paul hadn't dropped out...

..here is something you don't see everyday....admittance to being wrong...

Bob Barr... talks to some dude for 40 minutes..

Is this the part you did not like?

After entering the House of Representatives in 1995, Georgia Republican Bob Barr acquired a reputation as one of the most conservative members of Congress. It was Barr who in 1996 wrote the Defense of Marriage Act, which said states didn't have to recognize gay marriages performed in other states; it was Barr who protested when he learned the military allowed soldiers to practice Wicca. A former federal prosecutor, a firm social conservative, and a strong supporter of the War on Drugs, Barr doesn't fit most people's image of a civil libertarian.

Well... I'm still listening...(to the link)... only half way through... very interesting speaker...

...I hope some people will want to mull this stuff over...(I fear I am alone on being undecided in my area)

[Rev.Reverence]

[Rev.Reverence]

GET ANGRIER! Call them liars, because that's what they are.

Sarah Palin didn't say "thanks but no thanks" to the Bridge to

Nowhere. She just said "Thanks." You were raised by a single mother on

food stamps — where does a guy with eight houses who was legacied into

Annapolis get off calling you an elitist? And by the way, if you do

nothing else, take that word back. Elite is a good word, it means well

above average. I'd ask them what their problem is with excellence.

While you're at it, I want the word "patriot" back. McCain can say

that the transcendent issue of our time is the spread of Islamic

fanaticism or he can choose a running mate who doesn't know the Bush

doctrine from the Monroe Doctrine, but he can't do both at the same

time and call it patriotic. They have to lie — the truth isn't their

friend right now. Get angry. Mock them mercilessly; they've earned it.

McCain decried agents of intolerance, then chose a running mate who

had to ask if she was allowed to ban books from a public library. It's

not bad enough she thinks the planet Earth was created in six days

6,000 years ago complete with a man, a woman and a talking snake, she

wants schools to teach the rest of our kids to deny geology,

anthropology, archaeology and common sense too? It's not bad enough

she's forcing her own daughter into a loveless marriage to a teenage

hood, she wants the rest of us to guide our daughters in that

direction too? It's not enough that a woman shouldn't have the right

to choose, it should be the law of the land that she has to carry and

deliver her rapist's baby too? I don't know whether or not Governor

Palin has the tenacity of a pit bull, but I know for sure she's got

the qualifications of one. And you're worried about seeming angry? You

could eat their lunch, make them cry and tell their mamas about it and

God himself would call it restrained. There are times when you are

simply required to be impolite. There are times when condescension is

called for!

This was mailed to me...it is a excerpt from a fictional conversation between Obama & some dude that was the prez on this show called "West Wing"...

I thought it was hilarious...& by hilarious... I mean it made me wanna' scream & break stuff...

I want to take those words AWAY from these jack-arsed fuck morons!*twitch*

[Oh_My_Goth]

This was mailed to me...it is a excerpt from a fictional conversation between Obama & some dude that was the prez on this show called "West Wing"...

I thought it was hilarious...& by hilarious... I mean it made me wanna' scream & break stuff...

I want to take those words AWAY from these jack-arsed fuck morons!*twitch*

[Rev.Reverence]

SORRY....Elite & Patriot...seems that none of the candidates strike me as either of these words...the words that come streaming to my mind are:

Self-serving...BLAND...humdrum...

oOOO... I so feel the 'borderline-turrets syndrome' the Doc tryed to paste on me 23 years ago...

fuck. crap. sonovafuckcuntbitchslut. looozerz.

carpeteater. doucheneeder. dirtypussydirtydirtypussy.

asshat. cumsuker. sluthole. piss. piss. piss. shitsniffers.

liar. liar. liar. liar. liar. thegodofallwatches. wait.

fuckerfuckers. whoreluverz. babylonbelievers.

misspeakers&haterz. diefucksdie.

....ah...I feel a bit better...

[TitsMcGee]

This was mailed to me...it is a excerpt from a fictional conversation between Obama & some dude that was the prez on this show called "West Wing"...

I thought it was hilarious...& by hilarious... I mean it made me wanna' scream & break stuff...

I want to take those words AWAY from these jack-arsed fuck morons!*twitch*

seems people will resort to anything to get the public pissed off about the election

[Rev.Reverence]

seems people will resort to anything to get the public pissed off about the election

To quote me (within a week) quoteing me (1-5 years ago) quoting me (in my adolescence)...

"I was born pissed off!"

[phee]

[Raev]

A passing thought from one of the founding fathers...

George Washington, in his "farewell address" addressing the issue of political factionalism.

The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts

[Rev.Reverence]

A passing thought from one of the founding fathers...

George Washington, in his "farewell address" addressing the issue of political factionalism.

[TitsMcGee]

those are freaking hilarious

[Nightgaunt]

My ex-wife is making a "campaign" sign for the front lawn that says, "BOYCOTT THE ELECTION". Teehee.