Help me understand Satanism

[Proscrire]

and by the way, which bible are you reffering to as being unoriginal?  The new testament certainly borrows from the story of the ancient pagan god osirius who was born to a virgin and rescurected from the dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's actually a fairly common ideology for the the Middle Eastern area. Check out Marvin Harris' "Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches" the chapter on Messiah cults. Or a book entitles "Paul and the Creation of Christ" (Who's author I've forgetten).

And just for the fun of it, if you want to stretch your intellectual horizens: Elaine Pagel "The Origin of Satan."

What I would like to know is which one is the group that believes in just hedonism and which one actually does like the sacrfices and makes me afraid to let my cat out?

[Homicidalheathen]

Satan to me is the christian name for a age long old diety not just a diety but a being that can hypnotize, shape shift and the like. I hear there are 5 on the planet at any one time.

This sounds nuts but I saw one once. I can tell you more but not on here. Baphomet is older than satan and I believe shiva is as well.

I connect with any horned god head, any person who has developed 'pan' aspects into his/her soul.

We are all beasts at heart.

[Steven]

My my my what a popular topic. I've noticed some strong arguments from everybody - and some strong misunderstandings as well. As a Christian - let me try to share a small bit of onsight and side commentary....

1st - most Christians you meet eat their young (Metaphor) and fail to embrace the true nature of the beleif system itself - that is - death to self in exchange for a life thru a higher mediator being exemplified by this person J. Christ. True Christianity is actually a difficult process that forces you out of the comfort zone - and you just dont seee that very much these days - what you see is a social circle instead.

In regard to biblical innacuracies - that's a tough one to prove or disprove. For example - how many completely accurate copies of new testament writings have been dug up over the years - accurate meaning no deviation from translation to include Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew? Over 5000.

By way of comparison: How many accurate copies of Plato's writings have been dug up that do not deviate in translation? 5. (five). Yet no one argues the sanctity of ancient writings that are socially acceptable...such as Platos.

Whoever posted the biblical error that David was supoposed to live forever did not do their homework, because it was his lineage that was to live on forever, the messiah coming from his literal family line as foretold by the prophets - and The Bible breaks down the family lineage from David to Jesus very accurately. as well as the argument that the bible states that the earth does not rotate, bad homework - in fact - the bible discusses the earth being a sphere - many generatin before this was discovered and accepted as a scientific fact. As for dates and times and ages of thigns...that's just tough all around. The Carbon dating system is a flawed one - and no one ever brings uop the fact that if there was ever a fire in or around the articles being dated then the carbon absorption has been comprimised.

Allright - enough of all that crap. SATANISM.....(oooooohhhhhhh)

there are weekenders, adolescent misfitters, and true devout beleivers of a deity of the fallen angel. There is ample evidence of all of these approaches and like anything else - you pick your poisen and jump in.

But I know two Satanists who tired to rape and kill my mother after casting binding spells for weeks. She got away. So they slaughtered her Dog and spread its entrails an blood all over the house, and painted runes on the wall in its blood. The police found articles of her clothing in their house - personal items, and items containing sweat and blood, and hair. These thigns had been missing for months. They were being used to cast spells and create progressions of power to lead up into their blundered attempt to kill her. These guys were high on acid when this went down. But I knew their lifestyle and some fo their click. Their leader - prior to all of this going down - told me that Satan was the true God and Jehovah was the Devil - and that eveil was good and good was evil because ti weakened us - and that we had been mislead.

That's true Satanism for ya. Read what you want. Think what you want. But I've seen it up close.

_steven

[Brenda Starrr]

Satan to me is the christian name for a age long old diety not just a diety but a being that can hypnotize, shape shift and the like.  I hear there are 5 on the planet at any one time.

This sounds nuts but I saw one once. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, me too. George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, my ex husband, and his older sister.

[Homicidalheathen]

The only thing I don't like about the Satanic Bible and all the other satanic type stuff is the 'belief' that somehow we got it all backwards...that everything is somehow in reverse and that makes it ok to not worry about charma. I guess I am old school and think we should try to be good, just and fair in that it harms none.

I go to Barnes and Noble and read for free. Because I am a cheap ass and cannot afford all the books.

I read the Satanic Bible and one other one there and decided I was getting to bitter in my old age because the shit is starting to make sense.

Smack me!

[Black Sunday9]

My my my what a popular topic.  I've noticed some strong arguments from everybody - and some strong misunderstandings as well.  As a Christian - let me try to share a small bit of onsight and side commentary....

1st - most Christians you meet eat their young (Metaphor) and fail to embrace the true nature of the beleif system itself - that is - death to self in exchange for a life thru a higher mediator being exemplified by this person J. Christ.  True Christianity is actually a difficult process that forces you out of the comfort zone - and you just dont seee that very much these days - what you see is a social circle instead. 

In regard to biblical innacuracies - that's a tough one to prove or disprove.  For example - how many completely accurate copies of new testament writings have been dug up over the years - accurate meaning no deviation from translation to include Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew?  Over 5000.

By way of comparison:  How many accurate copies of Plato's writings have been dug up that do not deviate in translation?  5.  (five).  Yet no one argues the sanctity of ancient writings that are socially acceptable...such as Platos.

Whoever posted the biblical error that David was supoposed to live forever did not do their homework, because it was his lineage that was to live on forever, the messiah coming from his literal family line as foretold by the prophets - and The Bible breaks down the family lineage from David to Jesus very accurately.  as well as the argument that the bible states that the earth does not rotate, bad homework - in fact - the bible discusses the earth being a sphere - many generatin before this was discovered and accepted as a scientific fact.  As for dates and times and ages of thigns...that's just tough all around. The Carbon dating system is a flawed one - and no one ever brings uop the fact that if there was ever a fire in or around the articles being dated then the carbon absorption has been comprimised. 

Allright - enough of all that crap.  SATANISM.....(oooooohhhhhhh)

there are weekenders, adolescent misfitters, and true devout beleivers of a deity of the fallen angel.  There is ample evidence of all of these approaches and like anything else - you pick your poisen and jump in.

But I know two Satanists who tired to rape and kill my mother after casting binding spells for weeks.  She got away.  So they slaughtered her Dog and spread its entrails an blood all over the house, and painted runes on the wall in its blood.  The police found articles of her clothing in their house - personal items, and items containing sweat and blood, and hair.  These thigns had been missing for months.  They were being used to cast spells and create progressions of power to lead up into their blundered attempt to kill her.  These guys were high on acid when this went down.  But I knew their lifestyle and some fo their click.  Their leader - prior to all of this going down - told me that Satan was the true God and Jehovah was the Devil - and that eveil was good and good was evil because ti weakened us - and that we had been mislead. 

That's true Satanism for ya.  Read what you want.  Think what you want.  But I've seen it up close.

_steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually man, it's not bad homework.

Math error?

I Kings 7:23, which seems to say that pi is three.

science error?

... The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (Psalms 93:1)

... The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (1 Chronicles 16:30)

He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (Psalms 104:5)

Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon. (Joshua 10:12)

unfulfilled prophecies:

And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies... (2 Samuel 7:10-11)

And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also subdue all your enemies... (1 Chronicles 17:9-10)

"Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever." (2 Samuel 7:16)

"I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever." (1 Chronicles 17:14)

"And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever." (1 Chronicles 22:10)

[Black Sunday9]

Also I have not seen anywhere where it says the earth is a sphere, can you tell me where it says that? Also there are all sorts of translation errors in modern bibles, I'm not sure exactly where you got that info from.

two examples:

qadesh means a male temple prostitute who engaged in ritual sex; it is often mistranslated as “sodomite” or “homosexual.”

to’ebah means a condemned foreign Pagan religious cult practice, but often translated as “abomination.”

contradictions:

In genesis there are two accounts of creation, one says animals were created before humans and the other is vice versa.

I Kings 6:1 says that work on the temple began 480 years after the exodus from Egypt: "And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Ziv, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of Jehovah (Yahweh)."

But the Apostle Paul made a speech in Antioch of Pisidia in which his math contradicted this statement: "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they sojourned in the land of Egypt, and with a high arm led he them forth out of it. And for about the time of forty years as a nursing-father bare he them in the wilderness. And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land for an inheritance, for about four hundred and fifty years: and after these things he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. And afterward they asked for a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for the space of forty years. And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my will," (Acts 13:17-22).

how many apostles did Jesus speak to?

ten?:

Jn.20:19-24

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.... But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

eleven?:

Mt.28:16

"Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him."

Mk.16:14

"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen."

Lk.24:33, 36

And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together.... And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you

twelve?:

1 Cor.15:5

"And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve."

another strange passage

Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)

but.....

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

Death Penalty?

Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:12)

Do not repay any one evil for evil. (Romans 12:17, likewise Matthew 5:39)

I could go on and on, the bible has literally hundreds of contradictions. I'm not trying to offend you as a Christian, I'm just pointing out that I haveprobably done more reading (or homework) than you might think.

[Steven]

The only thing I don't like about the Satanic Bible and all the other satanic type stuff is the 'belief' that somehow we got it all backwards...that everything is somehow in reverse and that makes it ok to not worry about charma.  I guess I am old school and think we should try to be good, just and fair in that it harms none.

I go to Barnes and Noble and read for free.  Because I am a cheap ass and cannot afford all the books.

I read the Satanic Bible and one other one there and decided I was getting to bitter in my old age because the shit is starting to make sense.

Smack me!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Steven]

Actually man, it's not bad homework.

Math error?

I Kings 7:23, which seems to say that pi is three.

science error?

... The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (Psalms 93:1)

... The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (1 Chronicles 16:30)

He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (Psalms 104:5)

Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon. (Joshua 10:12)

unfulfilled prophecies:

And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies... (2 Samuel 7:10-11)

And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also subdue all your enemies... (1 Chronicles 17:9-10)

"Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever." (2 Samuel 7:16)

"I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever." (1 Chronicles 17:14)

"And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever." (1 Chronicles 22:10)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude - you cant quote biblical text and not take into account the culture and times it was written in. His throne being established forever simply means that his lineage - his seed - would be the fullfillment of the prophesy regarding the messiah. Its no different than God's promises to Abraham regaring his descendants. If you look at the many titles for the messiah (one of which is THE ROOT OF DAVID) , and study other scripture including conversational scripture and new testament scripture written by an educated Pharisee (Saul of Tarsus - later called Paul) taught by Gamliel - a keeper and expert on the biblical texts, you'll see that continuity, and its not a stretch. Look at the culture: everything regarding the first born and the family line is pivitol to the CULTURE. You can try to make it a literal translation and then take shots at it - but your misintepreting and misrepresenting what was written. Never did God ever promise to grant King David eternal life. For example - you quote from Samuel - who was Samuel? A prophet. Your quoting PROPHESY - not literal fixed current time statements.

Everything considering Israel is prophetic Bro. Some of which has allready passed, and some of which is still due to come to pass. But the Messiah coming thru Israel - and THEN setting up his kingdom forever after vanquishing evil upon his return - thats future stuff your criticising - it does not yet fit into your argument.

And again - to quote what you think the bible or GOD is saying - in context - you have to also undersdtand the nature of God and how he communicates and what he is attempting to say - you cant just quote out of context from what precedes and procedes from the verses you use.

The earth being FIXED: dude - its not about rotation of the sphere. It's about the ultimate power being God's and that it is HIS power that has established and commands all things - including his creation.

I respect your arguments Bud - but we cant seperate the nature of the writer - and the INTENT of the points being made out of context from the receiver of the text. That's what I meant by bad homework. That's sort of like citing Hemmingway by a quote out of context without taking into account his lifestyle, motivations, background, and social circle in light of the broader picture he is attempting to communicate. All things make up the whole and grant perspective.

Steve

[Black Sunday9]

Well I am not sure I took those statements out of context. I have read several versions of the bible. I am not an athiest, I am open minded. I just have alot of issues with some of the stuff in the bible.

It seems to me that you have the standard Christian response, which is fine, you might be right about all of it. Those reponses though seem to be:

1) the science errors are either taken out of context or are not proven errors at all since C14 dating is only 100% accurate within 2,000 years. Thus there is no proof that "the earth is older than 6,000 years".

My response: Science has a pretty good idea that the bible is wrong on a lot of things, including creation. It's not 100% provable but the majority of scientist are not Intelligent Design believers. You might be right, but the data that exists seems to point towards "evolution" and it seems to state the earth is far older than the bible says it is.

2) all the historical events it predicted but did not happen is merely unfulfilled prophecy.

My response: nowhere in the old testament does it say that the messiah will return and fill prophecy. this is why jews remained jews. I guess you can explain away any of the predictions it got wrong as saying "it just hasn't happened yet" but that's just not acceptable to me.

I do have a question though about that....in both the old and new testament God promised to give peace to the land of israel and the jewish people. I know you said it's unfulfilled prophecy but damn how long is God waiting? The jews have gone thru more than any group of people in the history of the world, even in recent history with World War 2 and now with terrorism. Why would God let this happen?

And if God knows the future he would know that the Jews don't believe in Christ, so why did he make a deal with Abraham to protect the jews? SO why would he protect a group of people who aren't going to heaven (according to christianity) ?

Anyway, good debate. I enjoy your responses.

[Steven]

Yeah, this IS a good topic. I could tell right away that you've studied scripture Bro (wait - I dont know if your a Bro or a Babe) from the first post that I answerd. But this is the problem that we have (actually it's a two-fold problem but I'll get that in a minute if I remember):

The Linear approach -vs- the relational approach to our data gathering and assumptions on truth. Here's what I mean...

you seem to be quite a linear thinker, and I've surmized this from reading some of your other posts as well (like the orgins of Goth). What I mean by linear is that you seem to be somone who rests in the accumulation of Data, and that hard data is more or less your reasoning fulcrum and foundation to draw from, which is cool and completely repectable.

I however - am a relational thinker. I draw conclusions from the end result of the task at hand, or the behaviour and conversational style of the person before me, and ultimately - the apparent quality of said person's life or beleif system. There is solid reasoning behind that approach as well.

Because I am the way that I am - I see the Bible for what it was designed to be: A RELATIONAL tool to help man recognize with greater depth, the character, mindset, value system, and provision of a Grand Creator (YHWH) as he desires to direct mankind.

And because I beleive the Old Testament is a pre-curser to the Messiah and New Approach to the relationship between man and god (as opposed to the rigidity and failure of the Mosaic law) - I beleive that ultimately - to be a "Christian" then all things will have to center on the life of the man Jesus. Whew, long ass sentence.

So when I look at an "apparent" scriptural conflict - such as the one you cited regarding an error on Paul's part - I dont see error. I see a man (Paul) attempting to relate to his people (the jews) by citing some historical relevance as would be respectable to the jews at the time, in order to open the doors of communication. He starts at Point A - but point A was and is not about his teaching an accurate history lesson.

Point A is about Paul trying to relate to his listeners while he expounds on the new revelations of Christ and the God to Man relationship. You have to look at the intent of the speaker - not jsut what is being spoken. Steven did the same thing before they stoned him. And they killed him for his intent.

When you watch a man like Jesus Christ (and again - were talking Christianity here not Judaism) you see man who very simply and succicently spoke, asked certain questions, and revealed the nature of man by handful of parables, some miracles, and most important - by way of his willingness and desire to seek out the losers in society to call friends. None of that is Linear. None of that is "Fact - Based" It is all relational. And the relational impact of this man and his words continues to live on all this time later - and still change lives. That part - is definately factual.

I cant get into big long debates concerning scripture - because it just becomes a big ego test. I've known many "smart" people who were well read and learned, who had no personal wisdom and who's lives were a mess. If you want solid scientific data look up people like Chuck Missler (Koinoia House) online - a literal "rocket scientist" who is also a christian who uses a scientific approach to scripture - I think you might like his stuff, actually there are many people online like Chuck Missler that you can find.

But in the end - regardless of any accumulatd data by either one of us - we both still have to choose what we yield to. Things can be "proven" by both camps - its always been that way with scripture - and yet scripture continues to be the all time best selling book and all time most persecuted book in the history of mankind.

I find that rather uncanny - if this gospel is really just a flawed manuscript......why wont it just go away then? Why is it's track record in comparison with other religeous books so different?

I cant assume this about you because I dont know you - but I also find one common trait with people such as yourself, people who study scripture and quote from it in an attempt to refute it's valididty: I find anger. I find a history of abuse, or lost faith, or rejection, or some "thing" that creates a need in the person to spend time and energy - refuting (usually in a haughty manner) the christian faith. To me it seems that there may be some sort of quiet anger at God - otherwise why bother with that which you do not beleive in? What drives the efforts - ??? What is the goal???

Maybe we'll talk more later. Your a smart cookie - I respect that.

Steven

[sinnaminn]

I don't quite understand how a question about satanism turned into a theological idebate on onritianity.First of all only fundamentalist christians take the creation story litterally.Although one can also say that science can not speculate as how time passes for a being such as God must be if he exsists.What would be a day in our terms and limited knowledge of time maybe a milliom+ years to something as infinate as God.I am a fortunate christian in so far as I chose it ,it was never thrust upon me.My husband and all of my in laws are either pagan/wiccan and my sister has always been anti christian.Since those are about the only people I really talk to anymore my faith has been tried and tested true.Wow you opened up a can of worms I could post on this all day.Maybe later!

[Steven]

glad you jumped inthough. welcome!! (and good points)

[Vater Araignee]

First off as I understand it satan is not a name, but a hebrew word meaning the enemy.

So I chuckle when I hear a religion called "The enemyisum"

Death Penalty?

Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:12)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That line is not telling you to put somebody to death.

As I have come to understand it what we call life and death are inverted, so if you kill another you will come back to another death here in hell.

Do not repay any one evil for evil. (Romans 12:17, likewise Matthew 5:39) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so when taken in the context that said individual will be punished without your hand, you should not sully your self.

I could go on and on, the bible has literally hundreds of contradictions.  I'm not trying to offend you as a Christian, I'm just pointing out that I haveprobably done more reading (or homework) than you might think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've read and reread a few books on string theory and I still don't fully understand it.

I'm not attacking you I'm just saying that there is a need to understand one thing before you compare it to an other.

And that's all coming from a person that until about a year ago was antichristianity.

[Steven]

Good points Vater - well expressed.

As always...context, context, context.

Glad to hear that you've seemed to have a change of position (from being anti-christian). Unfortunately Xtians have gotten a reputation for not being thinkers but instead being robots - or worse - puppets. One definately can be intelectual - and yet spiritual - or even (gulp) admittedly dependent on a higher power. To quote Paul the Apostle regarding the empowerment of accountability:

"for when I am weak, then I am strong..." (a far cry from do what thou wilt....)

Party On

Steven

[Fierce Critter]

...I also find one common trait with people such as yourself, people who study scripture and quote from it in an attempt to refute it's valididty: I find anger. I find a history of abuse, or lost faith, or rejection, or some "thing" that creates a need in the person to spend time and energy - refuting (usually in a haughty manner) the christian faith. To me it seems that there may be some sort of quiet anger at God - otherwise why bother with that which you do not beleive in? What drives the efforts - ??? What is the goal???

Speaking as a former Catholic who walks a pretty agnostic/pagan-leaning path...

Some of us feel this way because of the hypocrisy of many Christians. The "Love your neighbor - but not if he/she does this, this and this - and while we're at it, let's go out of our way to try to make THEIR lives a living hell" path these so-called followers of Jesus walk.

Christianity has a long history of need to spend time and energy refuting (usually in a haughty manner) ANY other faith - any other belief, any other action that they deem "unacceptable", etc.

It's lobbing back that which is thrown at us.

Some of us get tired of scripture being used to tell us or those we love that our lives are sinful and wrong - while at the same time, these Christians are picking and choosing what to follow from the bible (homosexuality is a sin - so it's wrong) and what not to bother with (touching the skin of a pig is a sin - oh, no - that's not really what they meant to say - go ahead and eat your porkchop).

There just isn't enough "do unto others" coming from Christianity - there never has been. (The burning times, the Salem Witch Trials, the efforts to quash homosexual rights today, etc.) It just gets real difficult to take a group seriously that is so incredibly hypocritical, so quick to throw such large, painful stones.

You seem to be the type of Christian I can deal with - generally not overly proselytizing, not damning everyone around you, open-minded when it comes to things in such a way that you don't force your beliefs on others (from you in another thread [paraphrased to death] "I'm pro choice but believe the choice is wrong in many cases"). It's the hypocritical nature of Christianity and the efforts many Christians go to to force their beliefs down everybody else's throats that gets many of us NOT on the Christian path pissed-off and defensive. Particularly since we live in a country where Christianity is the majority, and every day more and more liberties are threatened because of the religious right. We ARE attacked, and our only line of defense often is this kind of dialogue.

I myself walk a path that is mostly undefined. My ancestors, the Poles of ancient times, were druidic in nature, believing in the spirituality of nature around them, and without a pantheon of named "god(s)". When Christian missionaries made their way into the country, the Poles found a way to practice a "dual-faith", integrating beliefs from seemingly disparate spiritualities, and making it work quite nicely. That is where I find my comfort in holding to some of the "nature" of Christianity and paganism, but not the man-written dogma of any of it - that's where I find my peace and faith.

Unfortunately, most Christians just can't leave me, and others who don't buy their dogma, be. That's where the frustration, the defensiveness, the "quiet anger" comes in. It's not at God - whomever or whatever that is. It's at the men who are claiming to be enforcing "His" laws as THEY see fit.

Since this window has been opened, maybe you can respond to something I've posted several times in the life of DGN. Something that, when the subject of Christian dogma comes up, I've posted in an attempt to explain why people like me feel the way we do about how Christians pick and choose what they do and don't CHOOSE to take literally from the bible they like to throw at everyone around them. It's a bit of transcript from a 2nd season episode of "The West Wing". It is, obviously, inspired by then recent events involving Dr. Laura Schlessinger. The set-up is President Bartlet is hosting a dinner of media personalities. He walks into the room, and protocol calls for all to stand when the president stands - yet one woman stays primly in her seat with her teacup & saucer. While the president tries to address the people in the room, he keeps seeming distracted. finally...

BARTLET

Forgive me, Dr. Jacobs. Are you an M.D.?

JENNA JACOBS

Ph.D.

BARTLET

A Ph.D.?

JENNA JACOBS

Yes, sir.

BARTLET

In Psychology?

JENNA JACOBS

No sir.

BARTLET

Theology?

JENNA JACOBS

No.

BARTLET

Social work?

JENNA JACOBS

I have a Ph.D. in English Literature.

BARTLET

I'm asking, 'cause on your show, people call in for advice and you go by the name of

Dr. Jacobs on your show. And I didn't know if maybe your listeners were confused by that, and assumed you had advanced training in Psychology, Theology, or health care.

JENNA JACOBS

I don't believe they are confused, no sir.

BARTLET

Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.

JENNA JACOBS

I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.

BARTLET

Yes, it does. Leviticus.

JENNA JACOBS

18:22

BARTLET

Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here.

I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. (small chuckles from the guests) She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, and always clears the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff, LeoO McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath, Exodus 35:2, clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important, 'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes us unclean, Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

Jenna Jacobs fidgets uncomfortably.

BARTLET

Think about those questions, would you? One last thing, while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tightass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

Jenna Jacobs squirms in her seat but doesn't rise. Bartlet glares meaningfully at her.

She finally rises out of her seat.

[Vater Araignee]

Good points  Vater - well expressed. 

As always...context, context, context.

Glad to hear that you've seemed to have a change of position (from being anti-christian).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wile I am no longer anti-christianity I didn't say That I'm not still anti-christian. Wile the religion is good most of it's practitioners are comprised of the foulest sort of hypocrite. Not all but most. same thing goes with Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans and Wiccans.

"for when I am weak, then I am strong..." (a far cry from do what thou wilt....)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

apples to oranges

[Steven]

Critter, you asked good questions and exemplified perfectly the reasons that you take issue with Christianity.

A couple of hours ago I replied to your post - but for some reason it didint go thru - so I'm going to attempt to try this again...

Because your challenge is tough - and your issues are legit - I'm going to just make this up on the fly to the best of my ability - But please understand that I am in no way going to try to offer you some trite cleanup job or throw a bunch of christianezizms at you and am in no way belittleing or reducing the validity of your concerns. Cool??? Here we go....

First - I'm a nitty gritty guy. So for me to consider myself a "Christian", that means that I identify with and follow the lead of Mr. J-Christ. That's important to understand - because often people forget that his entire purpose while on earth was to dismantle the old traditional and ridgid allegience to the Mosaic Law because the law had long since ceased to fulfill it's purpose and had instead become a God unto itself.

If you study Christ - which is essential to being a Christian - then you have to reconcile the fact that Christ was in no way a legalist. His freinds were the prostitutes, the drunkards, the unclean, the defilers. He loved them and protected them from the opressive religion of the day. His clear intent to see value in everyone - threatened to un-do the thousands of years of mind control that the Priesthood of the day enjoyed. He opposed the religeous hiearchy that was the Sanhedrin Court and the Pharisees..... those who tried to show themselves off as being Holy and God-like because they supposedly did not violate God's Laws.

Christ called them liars, Sons of The Devil, and a "Brood of Vipers"...and they killed him for it.

Then if you look at the church as it developed just after Christ - you see that the Apostle Paul also preached against the "Law" being a form of godliness. He preeched freedom from the Law, yet respected it's early purpose. He carried on what was clearly Christ's personal mission.... to further liberate and open up the mindset of the people so that they no longer needed "mediators" between themselves and God. And like Christ - the Religious Order hunted him for it.

SO then you have to look at the Law itself - what it was and why it was. Since you used the West Wing example - it works well, because the scriptrues thrown in Dr. Laura's face were all old testament Law - PreChrist, and therefore no longer applicable to the situations presented to Dr. Laura. That would be like me trying to use American Law regarding the black man prior to his emancipation. Yes - it was once a part of our structure. But it no longer applies and serves no purpose in light of how far we have come.

Prior to The Law (the scriptures you quoted) - Israel and the Jews were not yet an identifyable Nation - with their own distinct culture, foundation, system of judges, social structure, etc. They were vagabonds and slaves, yet their numbers were staggeringly high. They did not have any intimacy with the God they worshipped - and relied on mediators to approach God. And suddenly they found themselves in the millions - moving out across unknown lands to create themselves and set themselves apart. Could we do that today? Would the spirit of Anarchy be seen? Would there be infighting as people took up positions among their own leaders?

The Law provided this wandering nation a place to begin, to include even Hygenic principles. It provided Structure, and accountability, and even a degree of fear that was needed to accomplish the task. It created something exclusive, but it was HARSH. But it was never intended to be self sufficient, nor was it intended to last forever, nor does it apply anymore.

Let's skip forward for a minute, to Dr. Laura.

She claims to be a Christian.

And what is Christ's first and primary directive (command)?

"To love one another - To love your neighbor as yourself - by this they will know that you are my disciples"

Notice that Christ did not say "Love your fellow Christian exclusively and elevate yourself among the rest"? He didint say that. Yet you've seen it. I have too, many many times.

Love. Does she (Dr. Laura) exemplify that?

No. Does she attempt to justify herself self righteously? Yes. Is she a hypocrite? HELL YES!!!

Dr. Laura - is like the Sanhedrin that Christ opposed. She is one of the Legalistic Christians that Christ also said he would "vomit them out of my mouth".

Vomit. Christians like that make him sick. And are they even really Christians?

She's bullshit. Her religion is religion - the religion of being right. Its crap. The church is full of them - always has been - and Christ himself warned us of these types of people saying that they will call him Lord and claim to be his followers and yet he will say "I never knew you - get away from me you workers of lawlessness"

Now let's jump back to the Law again, and how it applies to ME.

I claim to be a Christian - meaning I follow Christ.

If all I care about is the rules of the Law - which do NOT bring one closer to God, then I should call myself a "Biblican" or "Holier Than Thou-ian" as opposed to a Christian.

Critter - everything you've said about Christians is true.

And yet NONE of it - would be condoned by Christ. I hate it. It is my fight personally, because these types of people attempt to call me one of their own, and yet I am not (one of them). It has gotten me in trouble at church - my being outspoken against the very things you exemplified, but I dont care and I know my purpose in life. So I constantly have to choose - who do I serve? Tradition? Social Acceptance? Beneign Comfort? Or Christ? I dont take my solace in men, because it never works. Men fuck things up. Including me. I fuck things up. But I'm tryin babe....tryin hard.

One thing you'll not see me do on this board (or in real life) is try to steer someone off their chosen path. God did not give me that right. But what I will do - is answer any questions that you might have, shoot straight, share what's important to me when invited, do my best to be clear, defend what I beleive is defendable when appropriate, tell you the truth when I'm not sure about something, ask your forgiveness if I say something stupid, and smoke the hookah with you.

Hope that helps answer your questions

Steven

[Fierce Critter]

...smoke the hookah with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't smoke.

But the rest is all good.

I don't feel a need to debate you, 'cause you sound like the kind of Christian I can deal with. To be honest, I'd more refer to you as a "Jesusian". But that stems from my own personal reference to myself as a person who believes Jesus rocked - but I don't consider Jesus my messiah, so I leave off the "Christ" part. I just personally like what the guy supposedly stood for. (Jesus, save me from your followers...)

What I can't help but wonder, however, is if you don't put your faith totally in the bible, then where do you get your info as to what Jesus was really about? What he did, said, etc? It's got to be some kind of man-written piece of something, and that's where I can't bring myself to buy into Christianity as anything more than an inspirational belief for myself.

Even the path I follow pretty much comes from within, rather than from outside sources. There are things I feel "work" for me, so I incorporate them into how I personally believe & worship. But the amount of outside sources I consult are rare.

By the way, I know the words to every song from the play "Godspell" by heart. I believe it's based on the gospel according to Matthew, where your 'brood of vipers' reference comes from. And if that's the "Jesus" you believe in, then I can dig it.

ALAS FOR YOU (Schwartz) (Love the bolded line)

Alas, alas for you,

Lawyers and pharisees

Hypocrites that you be

Searching for souls and fools to forsake them

You travel the land you scour the sea

After you've got your converts you make them

Twice as fit for hell!

As you are yourselves!

Alas, alas, for you

Lawyers and pharisees

Hypocrites that you are

Sure that the kingdom of Heaven awaits you

You will not venture half so far

Other men that might enter the gates you

Keep from passing through!

Drag them down with you!

You snakes, you viper's brood

You cannot escape being Devil's food!

I send you prophets, and I send you preachers

Sages in rages and ages of teachers

Nothing can mar your mood

Alas, alas for you

Lawyers and pharisees

Hypocrites to a man

Sons of the dogs who murdered the prophets

Finishing off what your fathers began

You don't have time to scorn or to scoff

It's getting very late!

Vengeance doesn't wait!

You snakes, you viper's brood

You cannot escape being Devil's food!

I send you prophets, and I send you preachers

Sages in rages and ages of teachers

Nothing can mar your mood

Blind guides, blind fools

The blood you've spilt

On you will fall!

This nation, this generation

Shall bear the guilt of it all!

Alas, alas alas for you!

Blind fools!!

[Steven]

that was pretty cool.. "Jesusian".... never heard that before. I dont want to debate either - and actually hate debating and I never last long with it because it never does any good - peopole have to make up their own minds.

For me, I DO rely on the bible for my grasp of Jesus - what he did, the questions he asked, etc. And I put my faith in the bible's ability to point me toward God and relationship. But the bottom line is in my walk with God. I use the Bible as a tool for that - I dont dismiss any of it - but I dont worship "it" either....if that makes sense.

What happens is that in my processing that which is biblical, and then taking that knowledge out into the world with me to try to work out this life, I find reserves from within. To me, that's what the Bible is for - to point you to God, so that you can then be pointed back to yourself and what makes you unique.

My wife doesent smoke either....except for The Hookah every great once in awhile. It goes down smooth and is nothing like smoking cigarettes or pot.

Loved the Godspell stuff too!

[Black Sunday9]

I do not hate god. I don't know why christians say things like this, as if they simply can not comprehend that after studying the facts known to man that they don't believe in a Christian God. You know, not even Jews make claims like that, it seems to be an explicit Chrisitan accusation.

I am also not anti-Christian. In fact I have often said that in my heart I am catholic but in my head I am either an atheist or jew. I do believe that if Jesus was the son of God (something I have not ruled out) then Peter was the first pope, if you believe in scripture. But I have no problem with christians. I have no problem with the christian right or fundamentalist or evangelicals or hard core catholics. none of that offends me or angers me. They have a right to their beliefs just like anybody else.

Nonetheless, the answers given here to my doubting of the reliability of scripture stands. My opinion is still that Christians have to play a lot of fancy word games to justify the errors and contradictions. If the bible was simply written for nomadic tribes thus the science isn't meant to be complex, why was it never updated? Still, it does not justify the numerous scientific errors in the bible. If there are errors and contradictions in the bible (and you have to work some facy wordplay to reconcile the errors) then why would any part of it be valid? Why would you be able to pick and choose what you want to believe from a piece of literature that claims you must follow it all explicitly?

and why are most scientist atheist? it's not merely because they hate god, I think most studies involving carbon dating would lead you to believe in an old earth as opposed to the new earth that God supposedly created. A simple class at a local junior college would lead you to believe evolution is far more logical theory than intelligent design, based soley on the data and studies that exist.

By the way, for a good read, I would track down the debate between farell till and norman geisler. I thought Till easily won the debate and Geisler is supposedly one of the top christian scholars in America.

So I do not hate God. I'm pretty open minded. I'm not an athesit per se, either.

It's just that if God and his son Jesus are in fact holy deity's, they havn't done a good enough job to convince me. I wish they had. In fact the scripture that gives first hand testomonial of Jesus's resurection is filled with what I consider irreconciable flaws.

sorry for the spelling errors.

[The Void]

I know a few of you are self described satanist and I am confused by this. 

It seems you are not satanist as in you worship the anti-christ but rather you subscribe to the Anton Lavey belief system, but there is no theological diety to worship, so where did the term "satan" come from as it pertains to the religion of Lavey's version of satanism?

Or if you are a Lucifer worshipping satanist, why?  If you believe that Lucifer Calaritanus exists and is opposition to God or Christ then you believe also in holy scripture (either the old testament or both) and you believe that Propechy will leave Satanist to eternal damnation.  Thus you believe in sacrifices, thievery, murder, etc  Am I correct?

I also have two other theories on Satanism.  One is that there you might think of Lucifer Calaritanus the fallen angel as some sort of maryter because he supposedly stood up to the Holy Father for the sake of mankind, in that Lucifer believed mankind should exist for itself and not for God (I remember something about stealing the light from god to give to humans).      This line of thinking would pretty much assume that the old testament, the new testament and the quran are all a bunch of lies. 

Finally I think it is possible some people might be satanist simply because they think it is cool or goth or whatever.   

I would like some insight on this, thanks for your time.

edit:  Ok I read the other thread and got some answers. You can megre this with that thread or not.....thanks again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will comment a bit, but not much, as much of this info is readily available on the internet...

Seems like you have touched upon: LaVeyanism, Luciferianism and Satanism. The remainders of some of the earlier incarnations of the movement have now gone on to refer to themselves as Setians, deifying Set, an ancient Egyptian icon. At any rate, there are many beliefs within the whole that is Satanism today. There are many other sects of Satanism, that also include vampyres, and many other sects.

At any rate, there is a division between those who feel Satan is an actual entity, those who believe it is perhaps an energy or symbol and those who use it as a philosophy for living period.

I can only say this, the #1 thing that seems to embody all of them is that SAtanism is a philosophy/religion of CHANGE. Everchanging it will be, it will never be static, so it will lose and confuse many.

I am not a Satanist myself, but I do heavily explore it as a belief system and still carry some pieces of it with me in my everyday life. I have no specific religion and practice magick, but have no set belief system in place per say.

[Steven]

who said you hated god?