Racism

[phee]

Thats about it. Which begs the question... How do we deal with it?

Should we go GFP's route? Pretend it doesn't exists? Turn a blind eye? Or should we just shoot everyone that shows any form of predjudice? Round them all up and put them in work camps?

What about people who hold racists feelings but want to change? Treat them just like we do the most hard core members of the Black Panthers or KKK?

My opinion... get it out in the open...

A lot of people who have feelings like this, know that its wrong but feel it anyway... and they lie to themselves and their friends about there feelings. It creates a downward spiral of self-loathing, which only creates more pain. They know its wrong... but they are given no outlet to heal and improve.

Its like a drug addict... does the addict hide and pretend its not happening? Or do they admit it to themselves and seek help and understanding? GFP I believe would like the addicts to STFU, and stop bringing those who beleive they don't have problems alone...

To me... the answer is clear.

To further the metaphor.... there has been a lot of upset over the the idea that "everyone is racist" I think that is true in the same way that "everyone is an addict" There are varing degrees of addiction and racism. I am addicted to sugar, sex, and tv... I am not addicted to cigarettes, pot, or crack.... Just as someone might feel tense when talking to tech support in India because of misunderstanding the communication... but that does not make them out burning crosses and moving to Howell.

To say that ANYONE is 100% NOT racist is a lot like saying that SOMEONE is 100% bad habit free... while possible in theory the probablility of it is next to impossible.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

See, Phee just showed some prejudice. I bet he didn't even realize it.

Phee, why do you hate people from Howell?

[phee]

See, Phee just showed some prejudice. I bet he didn't even realize it.

Phee, why do you hate people from Howell?

LOL I am glad you picked up on that (I did realize it)... Howell was the KKK capital of the world for many years (not anymore), the point I am demonstrating here is that people have them... whether they think they do or not.

[Hellion]

Nothing against anyone on the board, or anyone I know.

I hate assholes,they should not exist,this country breeds that human trash,LOL!!

.assholes are a breed in itself,kinda like stupid people are in their own world.color does not matter only actions

carry on!!

[torn asunder]

lol..what i know about you is your a racist wanna be spindoctor...you say that you have a lower level of trust towards Mexicans...which often stems from a HATRED of either one, or more, of their race being dishonest to you...or you were taught that from someone that hates...so yes...your racism is based on HATE...either way, it IS ignorant.

just thought i'd point out that this is erroneous assumption. a lower level of trust does not have to stem from hatred - if you trust someone, and they screw you over, you will not trust them the next time; that's just a good life lesson. if you learn that about a particular type of person repeatedly, you tend to classify that type of person as "untrustworthy". assuming it *must* stem from hatred is a false base from which to argue your point, and as such, invalidates your line of reasoning.

you even said yourself, "often stems from a hatred" - you admit it might not stem from that right in your argument. it might benefit you to think things through a little more thoroughly next time...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Thats about it. Which begs the question... How do we deal with it?

Should we go GFP's route? Pretend it doesn't exists? Turn a blind eye? Or should we just shoot everyone that shows any form of predjudice? Round them all up and put them in work camps?

What about people who hold racists feelings but want to change? Treat them just like we do the most hard core members of the Black Panthers or KKK?

WOW....just WOW...thank you, Phee and Gaf...for both being AMAZINGLY off course to what I expressed...that was grand of both of you....I like how BOTH of you rounded me up to wanting to either ignore the problem...or take drastic, violent measures to it....great...time to take EVERYONE to school.

OK...I have NEVER said, nor insinuated, that we should take violent precautions pr take a blind eye to the situation...I was too pre-occupied with Gaf's insults to society and the people in it to voice what I belive should be done.

Racism is ALWAYS rooted in Hate and Ignorance, wheither you state it as issues of distrust, taught that way by parents, etc. Racism is a social disease, and the only real way to get over hate is to LET IT GO. Putting everyone else under the same umbrella as your social disease does nothing for you, except give you a false sense of lesser guilt. It is a common "solution" that many people use with social diseases. It's like having feelings of incest, and then trying to make it ok by saying that EVERYONE has feelings of incest...which is another common opinion amongst those inflicted with social diseases.

You want to know what i think is the REAL way to deal with racism...I do believe there needs to be an acceptance of racism, but to make that acceptance based on the idea that EVERYONE is a racist is wrong, because of what I stated above. Accept that racism exists...then seek a type of social counseling for it, for those that wish to change....much like an AA or NA meeting...some kind of group therapy for it. FOr those that don't...accepting their problem, but not re-acting to their movements, unless in defense, is the best route.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

just thought i'd point out that this is erroneous assumption. a lower level of trust does not have to stem from hatred - if you trust someone, and they screw you over, you will not trust them the next time; that's just a good life lesson. if you learn that about a particular type of person repeatedly, you tend to classify that type of person as "untrustworthy". assuming it *must* stem from hatred is a false base from which to argue your point, and as such, invalidates your line of reasoning.

you even said yourself, "often stems from a hatred" - you admit it might not stem from that right in your argument. it might benefit you to think things through a little more thoroughly next time...

the distrust OFTEN stems from hatred, but not always...your are correct...BUT...if that distrust can be considered racism, especially by the one that has the distrust, then it is hate and ignorance fueled in one way or another..

[torn asunder]

the distrust OFTEN stems from hatred, but not always...your are correct...BUT...if that distrust can be considered racism, especially by the one that has the distrust, then it is hate and ignorance fueled in one way or another..

now you're making a circular argument, saying that racism stems from hatred, but if it *doesn't*, and is still called racism, then it is hate. again, that's an invalid assumption.

[phee]

WOW....just WOW...thank you, Phee and Gaf...for both being AMAZINGLY off course to what I expressed...that was grand of both of you....I like how BOTH of you rounded me up to wanting to either ignore the problem...or take drastic, violent measures to it....great...time to take EVERYONE to school.

OK...I have NEVER said, nor insinuated, that we should take violent precautions pr take a blind eye to the situation...I was too pre-occupied with Gaf's insults to society and the people in it to voice what I belive should be done.

Racism is ALWAYS rooted in Hate and Ignorance, wheither you state it as issues of distrust, taught that way by parents, etc. Racism is a social disease, and the only real way to get over hate is to LET IT GO. Putting everyone else under the same umbrella as your social disease does nothing for you, except give you a false sense of lesser guilt. It is a common "solution" that many people use with social diseases. It's like having feelings of incest, and then trying to make it ok by saying that EVERYONE has feelings of incest...which is another common opinion amongst those inflicted with social diseases.

You want to know what i think is the REAL way to deal with racism...I do believe there needs to be an acceptance of racism, but to make that acceptance based on the idea that EVERYONE is a racist is wrong, because of what I stated above. Accept that racism exists...then seek a type of social counseling for it, for those that wish to change....much like an AA or NA meeting...some kind of group therapy for it. FOr those that don't...accepting their problem, but not re-acting to their movements, unless in defense, is the best route.

It seems that the core issue you have is that some of us believe that everyone is racist to a degree, but you also seem to have a major issue with people who admit that they are racist in any way shape or form as well.... as when someone has admitted having a problem when debating with you, that seems to (just from what I can read) make there opinion invalid somehow.

I very rarely see you (or that many people) admit to any faults. When I see someone admit to their own short comings, I instantly gain a level of respect for that person. When I see someone willing to point out the faults of others without admitting or acknowledging any fault of their own, I very quickly become skeptical of their point of view.

I became a stronger person when I stopped denying my issues and started talking about it and getting help. If when I opened up and admitted being vunerable I had been discarded (there is Phee, he has admited XYZ issues so his opinion is below mine) I probably would be much more overbearing about pointing out the faults of others and had a strong degree of denial about my own. Luckely I have a very supportive wife who does not make me feel bad about saying I have a problem.

He openly admitted to being a racist, Raev....I can find the post if you like...

I ask you again.... does this make Gaf a more respectable source for honesty? Or does it make you look like a person who exploits others weekness? (I can tell you that if I have an issue that maybe embarrassing, sensative, or looked down on by society, I would not come to you for help)

I am not trying to be combative, it is just something to think about.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'd like to point out, that the first step of AA or NA is admiting you have a problem.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I'd like to point out, that the first step of AA or NA is admiting you have a problem.

your amazing at missing what I have been saying....it's not the admittance of a problem that I am against....it's the idea of "EVERYONE is a racist" that I am finding fault in.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

It seems that the core issue you have is that some of us believe that everyone is racist to a degree, but you also seem to have a major issue with people who admit that they are racist in any way shape or form as well.... as when someone has admitted having a problem when debating with you, that seems to (just from what I can read) make there opinion invalid somehow.

I very rarely see you (or that many people) admit to any faults. When I see someone admit to their own short comings, I instantly gain a level of respect for that person. When I see someone willing to point out the faults of others without admitting or acknowledging any fault of their own, I very quickly become skeptical of their point of view.

I became a stronger person when I stopped denying my issues and started talking about it and getting help. If when I opened up and admitted being vunerable I had been discarded (there is Phee, he has admited XYZ issues so his opinion is below mine) I probably would be much more overbearing about pointing out the faults of others and had a strong degree of denial about my own. Luckely I have a very supportive wife who does not make me feel bad about saying I have a problem.

I ask you again.... does this make Gaf a more respectable source for honesty? Or does it make you look like a person who exploits others weekness? (I can tell you that if I have an issue that maybe embarrassing, sensative, or looked down on by society, I would not come to you for help)

I am not trying to be combative, it is just something to think about.

I DO hate racism...I've hated it for a long time...there is no basis for it...it's an ignorant, hateful thing...purely destructive...there is nothing creative or productive in racism....and "American History X" is a perfect example of this.

You want me to admit to faults??...I've got a ton, but none in the "social disease" category, which is currently what we are on....if there was a "state your personal flaws" thread...I would have list for that. Your compounding things together that have a fine line. If someone does not have a social disease, then what would be the point of admitting to it....it doesn't dis-avow their point of view, and to become skeptical of their point of view is rather...well...ridiculous, is it not? I mean..going on that, then a doctor who has never had a broken bone should not be able to diagnose someone with a broken bone.

Trust me...no-one here wants to hear my faults and flaws...because I would be an outcast alot faster, harder, and sooner then what you and Gaf think I am making him...

the problem with Gaf I have isn't in the admittance, phee....but in the declaration that EVERYONE has the same problem...thats my issue...to say that everyone has racist issues, would also to say that everyone has incest feelings, everyone is a druggie, everyone is a pedophile, everyone is a sexist, everyone is a this, everyone is a that....see where that statement is a problem now? If I said that everyone was a pedophile, can you imagine the uproar? what if I said that everyone had incest feelings....the war that would go on...and I would probably NEVER come off "probation", if not banned....but to put everyone under an umbrella and say "ok..your all racist"...thats ok?

"I can tell you that if I have an issue that maybe embarrassing, sensative, or looked down on by society, I would not come to you for help" thats rather judgemental, don't you think??...I mean...we're talking about racism...a social disease that is rooted in nothing but ignorance and hate....and because I oppose it...and the fact that he is going to make a statement that EVERYONE is racist, to make him feel less guilty about it, I become the villain??

Thats fine, phee....I'm used to it....the problem isn't that people admit to problems....its that most of them don't know how to get over it...and if when someone helps them, that knows how to handle the problem...they don't respond if they don't like what they hear....I've dealt this tons of ppl like that in the past...and I see that I am dealing with that now....everyone is too sensitive anymore...we all worry about social stigmas and if we'll be an outcast or not....even I am guilty of it..because there is one thing that I have only told a handful of people, because I am scared of being the outcast. Everything else, though...I wear on my sleeves...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I wish you could see all the contradictions in your posts.

You accuse phee of being judgmental... and somehow miss how judgmental you are being.

Hate is a social disease according to you and you claim to have no social diseases... How many times have you used the words "I hate" in this thread?

You say you hold no racist or prejudice views... have you read your posts about women? Did you forget admitting to having issues with women to me?

Racism stems from Hate, except when it doesn't.

Sir, you are arguing with yourself... and loosing.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I wish you could see all the contradictions in your posts.

You accuse phee of being judgmental... and somehow miss how judgmental you are being.

Hate is a social disease according to you and you claim to have no social diseases... How many times have you used the words "I hate" in this thread?

You say you hold no racist or prejudice views... have you read your posts about women? Did you forget admitting to having issues with women to me?

Racism stems from Hate, except when it doesn't.

Sir, you are arguing with yourself... and loosing.

more proof that you don't read a goddamn thing anyone writes....I said that RACISM is a social disease, not hate....so next time you care to quote me...do yourself a favor and get it right.

Hate is an emotion. Just because racism is rooted in Hate, does not make Hate a social disease. Lust is a emotion, but Lust doesn't become a social disease just because incest is. To make those connections would mean that someone isn't paying attention...or doesn't comprehend what is being said. I think you fall under one or the other most of the time.

Also...my issues with females are not a social disease like racism...they are personal flaws and faults. Thank you for using them against me, out of context....just goes to show to people how they cannot trust you, because you will bring up things they have said to you in private against them.

Phee, who is exploiting weakness's now???

Once again, Gaf...you fail at being a spindoctor.

[phee]

I DO hate racism...I've hated it for a long time...there is no basis for it...it's an ignorant, hateful thing...purely destructive...there is nothing creative or productive in racism....and "American History X" is a perfect example of this.

You want me to admit to faults??...I've got a ton, but none in the "social disease" category, which is currently what we are on....if there was a "state your personal flaws" thread...I would have list for that. Your compounding things together that have a fine line. If someone does not have a social disease, then what would be the point of admitting to it....it doesn't dis-avow their point of view, and to become skeptical of their point of view is rather...well...ridiculous, is it not? I mean..going on that, then a doctor who has never had a broken bone should not be able to diagnose someone with a broken bone.

Trust me...no-one here wants to hear my faults and flaws...because I would be an outcast alot faster, harder, and sooner then what you and Gaf think I am making him...

the problem with Gaf I have isn't in the admittance, phee....but in the declaration that EVERYONE has the same problem...thats my issue...to say that everyone has racist issues, would also to say that everyone has incest feelings, everyone is a druggie, everyone is a pedophile, everyone is a sexist, everyone is a this, everyone is a that....see where that statement is a problem now? If I said that everyone was a pedophile, can you imagine the uproar? what if I said that everyone had incest feelings....the war that would go on...and I would probably NEVER come off "probation", if not banned....but to put everyone under an umbrella and say "ok..your all racist"...thats ok?

"I can tell you that if I have an issue that maybe embarrassing, sensative, or looked down on by society, I would not come to you for help" thats rather judgemental, don't you think??...I mean...we're talking about racism...a social disease that is rooted in nothing but ignorance and hate....and because I oppose it...and the fact that he is going to make a statement that EVERYONE is racist, to make him feel less guilty about it, I become the villain??

Thats fine, phee....I'm used to it....the problem isn't that people admit to problems....its that most of them don't know how to get over it...and if when someone helps them, that knows how to handle the problem...they don't respond if they don't like what they hear....I've dealt this tons of ppl like that in the past...and I see that I am dealing with that now....everyone is too sensitive anymore...we all worry about social stigmas and if we'll be an outcast or not....even I am guilty of it..because there is one thing that I have only told a handful of people, because I am scared of being the outcast. Everything else, though...I wear on my sleeves...

How can one call hatred a social disease that they are not guilty of if they themselves hate whole groups of people? I am loosing the logic here... that is kind of like saying "if anyone is too violent I will beat them to a pulp...." Hating racists does something... it makes more hatred and more racists.

As far as faults no... you don't have to admit them, and some of the ones you have alluded to do fit into a "social disease" catagory from what I have seen. I am not saying that you don't admit to faults my friend, only that you are more anxious to point out the faults of others (thats OK though, it makes you like most human beings I know).

Gaf as well as my statement about racism being within virtually all people is an OPINION based on what we have seen. If you have a different experience thats fine. Thats what makes them opinions and not facts.

If you look at the history on the board I think Gaf (and before that The Dark) have probably disagreed on 95% of the content posted here... but sometimes we do agree.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

As for being judgemental...your right..I am...but if you took the time to look at how phee's judgement and my judgement were being played, you might learn something. Instead, your building a house of cards with half a deck.

Phee's judgement is based on what he sees as my re-action and observations to problems here on the board. He is making a judgement of one person...a singular entity...based on that person's opinions and statements.

My judgements can be grouped rather easily...and when i'm having to explain it over and over again to you, Gaf, it reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes: "I'm not just talking about one person, I'm talking about everybody. I'm talking about form. I'm talking about content. I'm talking about interrelationships. I'm talking about God, the devil, Hell, Heaven. Do you understand... FINALLY? "

well..do you Gaf...do you understand...FINALLY?

probably not.

[phee]

Also...my issues with females are not a social disease like racism...they are personal flaws and faults.

How is this a difference?

Not following here...

If someone calls their issues with say.... Asians, not a social disease like sexism... but instead they are personal flaws and faults, what makes one point of view a personal issue, and another a social disease?

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

How is this a difference?

Not following here...

If someone calls their issues with say.... Asians, not a social disease like sexism... but instead they are personal flaws and faults, what makes one point of view a personal issue, and another a social disease?

it's a fine line...I will admit.

Social diseases are taught to someone, or given through an outside influence most of the time. There are times where a social disease comes from an interior conflict of some kind, but it is a thin line that most people blur between social disease's and personal flaws.

Lemme see if I can make it clearer with an example.

I have severe female abandoment issues (F.A.I.). My mother left me with my grandmother for a year when I was 3...and still to this day won't say why. I didn't meet my father till I was about 5. Because of this, I go through severe emotional, psychological, and physical trauma if a female is the one that initiates a breakup: I get highly suicidal, have deep thoughts of running away from the problem, and even get to the point where I have coughed up blood every morning for a week straight, because I am so despressed that my body takes it out on itself.

It doesn't help that I fill my astrological signs almost to a T...I am Gemini with a Scorpio cusp, and while I love change (Gemini), I have to be able to control it (Scorpio)...if you ever come to a show that I am running, you will see this in action...I can't sit still and I worry about everything.

I am also a dog (oriental zodiac)...I'm very loyal, but highly possessive....so it makes a breakup seem even more like a betrayal.

those are personal faults...they are not based on a hatred of women, or being raised by a hater of women, not ignorance. They are internal conflicts that have arisen from past experiances, but what makes them differant from sexism and other social diseases is that it doesn't target a broad spectrum. The F.A.I's only come into play when I am in a relationship, or very close to a female. Depending on how close dictates the degree of the effect of the F.A.I. Close friends hurt....relationships often have the blood

To say that you have an issue with women...that is still a broad spectrum. TO say that you have a problem with black women, is still a broad spectrum...even to say that you hate Detroit-raised black women is still a broad spectrum, though not as broad as it's predecessors.

can you see the line now???

now..as much as I would love to sit here and pour out more my personal life as an example...I'm going to the movies...Hellboy 2 is playing at Macomb mall!!

[phee]

But whatever path someone follows to a point where they find themselves treating women with distrust, or hatred... or treating a certain skin color with mistrust or hatred...

is not the end result the same?

That is... If I distrusted black people because a group of them beat me up and robbed me in school, and ended up joining a hate group because of it... that is just as much of a social disease or just as racist as a parent teaching you that black people are violent and not to be trusted, and me joining said hate group correct....?

or in the case of sexism, if the adolecent and adult relationships in your life hurt you and bred a distrust/dislike for women... vs .... your mother abusing/neglecting you and giving you a distrust/dislike for women... it is still sexism.

(for the record, I think almost all people are sexist to some degree as well, whether it is acted on or not.... just like racism)

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

But whatever path someone follows to a point where they find themselves treating women with distrust, or hatred... or treating a certain skin color with mistrust or hatred...

is not the end result the same?

That is... If I distrusted black people because a group of them beat me up and robbed me in school, and ended up joining a hate group because of it... that is just as much of a social disease or just as racist as a parent teaching you that black people are violent and not to be trusted, and me joining said hate group correct....?

or in the case of sexism, if the adolecent and adult relationships in your life hurt you and bred a distrust/dislike for women... vs .... your mother abusing/neglecting you and giving you a distrust/dislike for women... it is still sexism.

(for the record, I think almost all people are sexist to some degree as well, whether it is acted on or not.... just like racism)

it's based on the spectrum....since mine is MASSIVELY specific, effecting only say...10 women in the world..thats a fault...not a social disease.

if you hate that group of black people for robbing you..thats not racism.

[phee]

it's based on the spectrum....since mine is MASSIVELY specific, effecting only say...10 women in the world..thats a fault...not a social disease.

if you hate that group of black people for robbing you..thats not racism.

But you have not commented on specifics before, you have in the past simply referred to problems with "women" that makes sex the qualifier not the individual when it is stated that way.

I do agree with what you are saying however.... If I had a problem with the individuals regardless of race, that is NOT racism...

As was stated before however, humans are catagoration machines, this is why I think to some degree or another... everyone is racist to a small degree (unless you are Steven Cobert because he "Doesn't see race" lol). Humans cannot help but label and sort things, people, and impressions... I like redheads and women with dyed hair... does that make me a "hairist"

It may come down to culture, but since different races are GENERALLY raised in different cultures then other races... The human mind will not seperate the two on its own.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Why is it OK for Phee to make a broad statement... and if I make the same one... GFP attacks me over and over and over...

I do see that "fine line" you speak of GFP. You seem to have drawn it very close to yourself. Everything on your side of the line is acceptable and everything on the other side is not.

Before you attack my intelligence and reading conprehension... you should go back over your posts and read them again. You are using circular logic and contradicting statements to try to make your case. "Thats not what I meant" does not undo what you have said.

Do you know my level of racists thoughts? Have I at anytime expounded on that topic. Do you know if I act on them? Have I said at any point that I hate anyone based on thier race? No.

What I have said is that I feel that I am racist toward Mexicans. I have said that it manifests as a lower level of trust than I would have for someone of another "race" in the same situation. I have said that I do my best to not let it affect my dealings with them. I have also said that I do my best to ignore those feelings and make them go away. I have not said where those feelings come from.

So how is it that you come to the conclusion that I hate? How is that I am affected by a Social desease but I dont fit the description you give for it?

[Rev.Reverence]

now you're making a circular argument, saying that racism stems from hatred, but if it *doesn't*, and is still called racism, then it is hate. again, that's an invalid assumption.

I'll try this one...(& I try to stay short)..."racism" starts with prejudice; then when this prejudice is acted upon it becomes discrimination...

..no matter if the prejudice is based in anger or fear.....it is an ignorant inclination..

..if the inclination to pre-judgment is acted upon (discrimination occurs) that is a decision.. MAKING THAT DECISION THERE IS WHAT HATE YOU ARE ALL LOOKING FOR.....

I do think that is all...?sorry it took me so long to formulate that...

[Rev.Reverence]

your amazing at missing what I have been saying....it's not the admittance of a problem that I am against....it's the idea of "EVERYONE is a racist" that I am finding fault in.

O.K. this is like the time Gaf tryed to make the blanket statement that everyone lies .. on purpose... PREPOSTEROUS & PRESUMPTUOUS.

I do not like it when peoples use the absolute terminology.....it is the #1 peeve I have with you Humans.....you all think every body can be grouped together into nice neat categories.....it saddens me...

but hey, thanx for all the poems

*points into brain*

To GFP: I have decided that ANY/EVERY statement that uses the "EVERYONE" immediately does not mean me... because I am assuredly a NO-WHERE-MAN...

[Raev]

O.K. this is like the time Gaf tryed to make the blanket statement that everyone lies .. on purpose... PREPOSTEROUS & PRESUMPTUOUS.

I do not like it when peoples use the absolute terminology.....it is the #1 peeve I have with you Humans.....you all think every body can be grouped together into nice neat categories.....it saddens me...

but hey, thanx for all the poems

*points into brain*

To GFP: I have decided that ANY/EVERY statement that uses the "EVERYONE" immediately does not mean me... because I am assuredly a NO-WHERE-MAN...

Rev, you are my bro...but I'd just like to point out the above to you