Racism

[SeraphBastille]

Rev...cousin...you are using wikipedia??....

was Hitler influenced by Thule Society members?...yes and no. Hitler USED the Thule Society as a way to gain power, but when i said USED...he USED them...like a toothbrush.

"It had members from the top echelons of the party, including Rudolf Hess and Alfred Rosenberg, though not Adolf Hitler. Serbottendorff stated, "Thule members were the people to whom Hitler first turned and who first allied themselves with Hitler."--so we have Hitler joining forces with influential members of the Nazi Party...not unusual in politics.

"The swastika flag adopted by the NSDAP was the brain-child of another Thulist, Dr Krohn. " -swastika flag NOT Hitler's idea, but a Thulist marker for the Nazi Party.

" Hitler wanted to turn the German Workers Party into a mass-conscious fighting party, but Harrer and Drexler were hesitant, due in part to their woeful financial situation. The Thule Society was not yet supplying very much money and no one seemed to know how to build up a mass party. Hitler arranged two public meetings in obscure beer halls, and he drafted leaflets and posters, but there was no real breakthrough.

All of this changed dramatically at the end of the 1919 when Hitler met Dietrich Eckart. Most biographers have underestimated the influence that Eckart exerted on Hitler. He was the wealthy publisher and editor-in-chief of an anti-semitic journal which he called In Plain German. Eckart was also a committed occultist and a master of magic. As an initiate, Eckart belonged to the inner circle of the Thule Society as well as other esoteric orders.

There can be no doubt that Eckart - who had been alerted to Hitler by other Thulists - trained Hitler in techniques of self confidence, self projection, persuasive oratory, body language and discursive sophistry. With these tools, in a short period of time he was able to move the obscure workers party from the club and beer hall atmosphere to a mass movement. The emotion charged lay speaker became an expert orator, capable of mesmerizing a vast audience. " So, due to lack of money from the Thules that he knows NOW...Hitler is introduced to a WEALTHY PUBLISHER, who was also a Thule initiate.

Hitler used the Thule Society to get things done that he wanted done....he was always given credit as an amazing speaker and massively charismatic...to use a publisher to get your flyers and pamphlets out to the public...thats not occultic...that political intelligence.

If anything...they used one another in the beginning...what the Thule Society didn't count on is Hitler becoming so damn popular that he would not need them anymore...they were un-prepared for how power his character would be.

it's a wonder how, after he broke the Thule Society, that they didn't change the name to Tool Society, cuz thats exactly what they were to Hitler...a set of tools. He took what he wanted...what was effective in the speaches...and tossed the rest out the window

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Nothing wrong with using wikipedia. Its an information source. I'd encourage it as a easy jumping off point to start with on a lot of subjects. Using it as our ONLY source wouldn't be smart but its just another form of information transmission. History in general, WWII especially the european theater (in particular), Religion and politics are all pet subjects (read: obsessions)of mine but...

So I heard this topic was about racism. hah.

The initial premise I think is probably not accurate on a longer timescale. Racism is clearly on the decline from a historical minded perspective. Pockets of racism on the rise? Sure. Do we all have (inadvertent) racist tendencies sometimes? Yes. But we are a far cry from public lynchings and segregated water fountains in the vast majority of the world. Sure there are plenty of "bad places" out there still.

To sum up much of what was said above and throw in my own two cents.

Racism is and has been on the decline probably since the dawn of the concept, perhaps inversely proportional to the average level of mankind's education about the universe. That is, we as our species get smarter over time and thusless likely to be ignorant of a given idea/concept/people we become less susceptible irrational responses to that lack of information (because there is less lack of information (aka ignorance).

We can get into semantic discussions about what the individual words mean but the overall gist is in there.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I have been combing the web looking for the "cause" of racism. Hate is never listed on psycology websites as a cause, it's listed as a manifistation of.

The "causes" of racism i do find are:

Xenophobia, the fear of of people who are different. An element of xenophobia is present in racism. Deep fear can express itself in racially motivated violence.

A need to feel OK, to feel worthwhile. This can result in people wanting to feel superior to others.

Power: Racism allows one group to socially, politically, and economically dominate other groups. An American Psychological Association article states racism serves to "rationalize the hierarchical domination of one racial or ethnic group over other group(s), and maintain psychological, social, and material advantages for the dominant group."

Historic patterns of prejudice, discrimination, and racism. Colonialism, historic hostilities, and the slave trade contribute to modern racism.

Ignorance of other cultures, religions, and values.

Fear of sharing power with other groups of people.

[Rev.Reverence]

Nothing wrong with using wikipedia. Its an information source. I'd encourage it as a easy jumping off point to start with on a lot of subjects. Using it as our ONLY source wouldn't be smart but its just another form of information transmission. History in general, WWII especially the european theater (in particular), Religion and politics are all pet subjects (read: obsessions)of mine but...

So I heard this topic was about racism. hah.

The initial premise I think is probably not accurate on a longer timescale. Racism is clearly on the decline from a historical minded perspective. Pockets of racism on the rise? Sure. Do we all have (inadvertent) racist tendencies sometimes? Yes. But we are a far cry from public lynchings and segregated water fountains in the vast majority of the world. Sure there are plenty of "bad places" out there still.

To sum up much of what was said above and throw in my own two cents.

Racism is and has been on the decline probably since the dawn of the concept, perhaps inversely proportional to the average level of mankind's education about the universe. That is, we as our species get smarter over time and thusless likely to be ignorant of a given idea/concept/people we become less susceptible irrational responses to that lack of information (because there is less lack of information (aka ignorance).

We can get into semantic discussions about what the individual words mean but the overall gist is in there.

YES TROY... this was a thread jacking of epic proportions... but Hitler...in the Racism thread...oh well...I'm just a Goat I guess...

[Rev.Reverence]

I have been combing the web looking for the "cause" of racism. Hate is never listed on psycology websites as a cause, it's listed as a manifistation of.

The "causes" of racism i do find are:

Xenophobia, the fear of of people who are different. An element of xenophobia is present in racism. Deep fear can express itself in racially motivated violence.

A need to feel OK, to feel worthwhile. This can result in people wanting to feel superior to others.

Power: Racism allows one group to socially, politically, and economically dominate other groups. An American Psychological Association article states racism serves to "rationalize the hierarchical domination of one racial or ethnic group over other group(s), and maintain psychological, social, and material advantages for the dominant group."

Historic patterns of prejudice, discrimination, and racism. Colonialism, historic hostilities, and the slave trade contribute to modern racism.

Ignorance of other cultures, religions, and values.

Fear of sharing power with other groups of people.

MARVELOUS!

[SeraphBastille]

I have been combing the web looking for the "cause" of racism. Hate is never listed on psycology websites as a cause, it's listed as a manifistation of.

The "causes" of racism i do find are:

Xenophobia, the fear of of people who are different. An element of xenophobia is present in racism. Deep fear can express itself in racially motivated violence.

A need to feel OK, to feel worthwhile. This can result in people wanting to feel superior to others.

Power: Racism allows one group to socially, politically, and economically dominate other groups. An American Psychological Association article states racism serves to "rationalize the hierarchical domination of one racial or ethnic group over other group(s), and maintain psychological, social, and material advantages for the dominant group."

Historic patterns of prejudice, discrimination, and racism. Colonialism, historic hostilities, and the slave trade contribute to modern racism.

Ignorance of other cultures, religions, and values.

Fear of sharing power with other groups of people.

I love how you left out the VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH of the article....

"We are not sure of the exact cause of racism. There are many reasons. Social scientists speculate about the causes. A few things that may contribute to racism and racially motivated violence appear below:"

the authors of the article themselves state that social scientists speculate on the reasons...and that the list they give is only "a few things that may contribute"....

It never says that hate is written out as a cause.

[torn asunder]

It never says that hate is written out as a cause.

which is the exact point i've been trying to make. any "prejudgement" (prejudice, which includes racism) is not necassarily caused by hate - hate is not the source of racism, hate can be one manifestation of racism, but hate is not the basis of it.

why is this so hard to comprehend?

[phee]

which is the exact point i've been trying to make. any "prejudgement" (prejudice, which includes racism) is not necassarily caused by hate - hate is not the source of racism, hate can be one manifestation of racism, but hate is not the basis of it.

+1

[SeraphBastille]

which is the exact point i've been trying to make. any "prejudgement" (prejudice, which includes racism) is not necassarily caused by hate - hate is not the source of racism, hate can be one manifestation of racism, but hate is not the basis of it.

why is this so hard to comprehend?

I'll let you know when I get my email from the APA stating one or the other....k?

and you need to reverse that...hate is not a product of racism...its the other way around.

[torn asunder]

I'll let you know when I get my email from the APA stating one or the other....k?

and you need to reverse that...hate is not a product of racism...its the other way around.

you're right the article doesn't say anything about hate "being written out as a cause". it does, however, say that hate is a "product", or a manifestation, of racism. (reread the article...)

now pay attention here - the product or manifestation of a thing cannot be the source of it at the same time. one stems from the other, and if hate is a manifestation/product of racism, it cannot be it's source. what you're proposing would be like saying beer is the source of hops... does that make *any* sense to you?

[SeraphBastille]

you're right the article doesn't say anything about hate "being written out as a cause". it does, however, say that hate is a "product", or a manifestation, of racism. (reread the article...)

now pay attention here - the product or manifestation of a thing cannot be the source of it at the same time. one stems from the other, and if hate is a manifestation/product of racism, it cannot be it's source. what you're proposing would be like saying beer is the source of hops... does that make *any* sense to you?

"Article" in question

I challenge you to the word "hate" anywhere in the article.....

also..there are other sited that say that Hate is SYNONYMOUS (def: alike in meaning or significance) with Racism....

and it CAN be a source, as well as a product.

Plants need carbon dioxide....humans release carbon dioxide....Humans need oxygen....plants expel oxygen....it's a semi-symbiotic relationship that we have had for years...it holds both source and product definitions within the same cycle.

Carbon Dioxide is a source that the plants need...it also has a product: oxygen

Oxygen is a source that humans need....it has a product: Carbon Dioxide.

product and source are found as definitions of both, in a semi-symbiotic relationship.

also...I found this...and I thought it rather interesting...because it's not a point that any of us have really said

" The place of contempt in the human mind is understood only by Aesthetic Realism. Contempt, the "disposition in every person to think he will be for himself by making less of the outside world," is the fundamental cause of cruelty in cultures everywhere (see Self and World, 1981, pp. 1, 15). Contempt is what Ashley Montagu is describing in Man: His First Two Million Years when he writes, "Many tribes call themselves by names which mean in effect 'we-are-men,' implying that all others are not" (1969, p. 182). Contempt has impelled people without their being able to identify it or combat it. The desire to have contempt has driven scholars to attack another's interpretation or theory. It has impelled husbands to patronize a wife's intellect. Racism itself is contempt for the world that takes the form of contempt for persons different from oneself. This contempt was taken to a horrible intensity when a white man dragged a black man to death in Jasper, Texas. "

[SeraphBastille]

"PSYCHOLOGICAL THEORY OF RACISM

Frustration Aggression

It explains that a person who is frustrated in his o her goal to achieve a highly desired goal tends to respond with a pattern of aggression. Because the real source of frustration is either unknown or too powerful to confront directly, a substitute is found on whom the aggression can be released. The substitute target is a scapegoat, a person or group close at hand and incapable of offering resistance.

When we suffer some kind of frustration, we are sometimes inclined to strike out at substitute targets such as our spouses and children. If the frustration continues, we may begin to blame more remote groups or institutions like the government, bureaucrats, blacks, Jews or gays.

When the aggressive behavior is displaced, it only can bring at best a very short time of relief of an individual s anxiety. Unless the actual source is attacked, the feeling of frustration will quickly recur or intensify. "

Frustration Aggression....Hate....

mind you it is a THEORY...but, IMHO, I think it has a very strong realism to it.

[Rev.Reverence]

I find that contempt is also an ignorant tendency.

[SeraphBastille]

I find that contempt is also an ignorant tendency.

+5 on that cousin...I just thought that the mention of it as the main source was interesting

not as interesting as the Frustration Aggression theory, though.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Contempt does not equal hate.

Contempt

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin contemptus, from contemnere

Date: 14th century

1 a: the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises : disdain b: lack of respect or reverence for something

2: the state of being despised

3: willful disobedience to or open disrespect of a court, judge, or legislative body

Just to be sure...

Despise

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English desdeyne, from Anglo-French desdaign, from desdeigner

Date: 14th century

: a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy or inferior : scorn

to be really sure...

Scorn

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French escharne, escar, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German scern jest

Date: 13th century

1 : open dislike and disrespect or derision often mixed with indignation

2 : an expression of contempt or derision

3 : an object of extreme disdain, contempt, or derision : something contemptible

I'm not finding hate, aggression or frustration in there...

Hate

Function: noun

Usage: often attributive

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hete; akin to Old High German haz hate, Greek kēdos care

Date: before 12th century

1 a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b: extreme dislike or antipathy : loathing <had a great hate of hard work>

2: an object of hatred <a generation whose finest hate had been big business — F. L. Paxson>

Aggression

Function: noun

Etymology: Latin aggression-, aggressio attack, from aggredi to attack, from ad- + gradi to step, go — more at grade

Date: 1611

1: a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master

2: the practice of making attacks or encroachments ; especially : unprovoked violation by one country of the territorial integrity of another

3: hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration

Frustration

Function: noun

Date: circa 1555

1: the act of frustrating

2 a: the state or an instance of being frustrated b: a deep chronic sense or state of insecurity and dissatisfaction arising from unresolved problems or unfulfilled needs

3: something that frustrates

Before you try to tie words together and say they thier meanings are the same. You should be sure you know what those words mean.

You are so intent on proving me wrong that you are blinding yourself to how much a fool you are painting yourself.

Noone is agreeing with you. It's not that they are talking my side or jumping on my band wagon. So don;t start spouting that drivel again. You are just wrong. You are talking nonesense and circular logic to try to prove your point and ignoring all facts that don't supprt your view. You can't even see when your pown posts prove you wrong. You highlight it and somehow say it's proof of your point of view.

Because the real source of frustration is either unknown or too powerful to confront directly, a substitute is found on whom the aggression can be released.

Thats a fine example of IGNORANCE. Not Hate.

[asphyxian_doll]

.....I grew up in flint.

And, I don't just hate one race....I hate any group of peoples who succumb to a certain cultural status, and act like a bunch of uneducated, biased, rude, violent, loud fucking "IDIOTS"

I'm not racist, but I see a VERY LARGE amount of "blacks", "mexicans" and "red necks" who fucking act the same, and that pisses me off....

I have hope for every race,

and I don't judge, but when you grew up in the ghetto, and you were mugged, your best friend was raped, and your house was raided numerous amount of times, and within the time span of those events, they were all fucking black,

You tend to hold a grudge.

A grudge i NO LONGER HOLD.

But i still DO NOT TOLERATE THAT BEHAVIOR, and have built a strong resentment for that culture.

Which is why i live in Fenton....:|

I hate people...not race...people.....

so when someone is stupid enough to blame a "race" for shitty behavior and not the cultural conditioning.....

THATS RACISM.

So when i hear a fucking derogatory term, I don't associate that to racism.

I just don't....

Its personal...and I'm working on it

BUT FOR FUCKS SAKE.....if you hadn't experienced it, don't preach to the damn choir.

fucking GOD!

that pisses me off.

*and i apologize ahead of time for this.....I do, but If you take offense to this in any way, think about why your offended....i mean SERIOUSLY.*

[SeraphBastille]

Contempt does not equal hate.

I'm not finding hate, aggression or frustration in there...

Before you try to tie words together and say they thier meanings are the same. You should be sure you know what those words mean.

You are so intent on proving me wrong that you are blinding yourself to how much a fool you are painting yourself.

Noone is agreeing with you. It's not that they are talking my side or jumping on my band wagon. So don;t start spouting that drivel again. You are just wrong. You are talking nonesense and circular logic to try to prove your point and ignoring all facts that don't supprt your view. You can't even see when your pown posts prove you wrong. You highlight it and somehow say it's proof of your point of view.

Thats a fine example of IGNORANCE. Not Hate.

wow....you really don't comprehend jack, do you??...are you that obsessed with TRYING to make me look like a retard that you are comfertable with your lack of understanding??

First off...I never said that Contempt equals Hate, nor did I allude to it...but i can if you want me too....I simply added the Contempt article because it is something that we have not touched on...we have touched on hate, fear, and ignorance, but not on any form of pride or contempt.

You want a prime example of contempt and ignorance, look in the mirror. You have this ridiculous "knack" of putting things together that I never said. You make connections with my words that aren't there.

YOU.....ARE....NOT.....A....SPINDOCTOR....OF....ANY....WORTH!!!!

and don't take one fucking line out of an entire article and say that it's ignorance....because that entire article is "FRUSTRATION AGGRESSION"....a.k.a. Hate driven

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

*sigh*

Yes, the article is about "frustration aggression". It does not, anywhere, say that Hate is the cause of it. Which, is what you are saying. It says that Ignorance is the cause of it.

You bring up the article about contempt. In that article it equates racism to contempt. Hate never comes up.

What you are not getting is that nothing you or anyone else has posted equates the source of racism to be hate. They do equate racism to contempt rooted in ignorance. They sometimes go on to list hate as being a manifestation of racism.

The article I posted does go into some detail about what is thought by psychologists to be the causes of racism. Hate is not ruled out, you are correct on that, but it is also not listed at all or even mentioned in passing as a cause of racism.

You also missed my point in bringing up that article. I can't find one article written by people of "science" that equates hate to being the cause of racism. Not one. It seems, neither can you.

I am not the one spinning things. I am not adding meaning to or changing the meaning of, anything I have posted as evidence of my position.

Well, I have better things to do than set you up to make yourself look like a fool today. I am sure you have to go do something that would piss off a femanist to make a dime. So lets just drop this before you have an aneurysm or something.

[phee]

This is a heated subject, and the argument I think goes beyond simply racism and goes more into a disagreement about human psychology.

I personally believe that the base of all human emotion is fear.... fear can give birth to a lot of other things such as hate... but the less ignorance there is the less fear.

GFP, I am not sure where you are coming from with this, I suppose I really just don't understand your point of view, but I can tell you feel very passionate about it.

What I do understand is Racism is a product of ignorance...

I have seen people who are full of hate who are not too racist,

I have seen racists that are full of hate...

I have seen racists that are NOT hateful

But I have NEVER seen a racist who did not have some degree of ignorance.

[Rev.Reverence]

I think GFP is gripped by the FEAR of being wrong...

[Goth Brooks]

I think GFP is gripped by the FEAR of being wrong...

I'd think GFP would have to be proven wrong first, for that conclusion to be drawn.

Oh wait, he has been. By yours truly. And he instantly retracted his statement and apologised for making it without properly checking his sources.

I've only skimmed this thread, but I haven't seen anyone here come close to proving him wrong. Only the typical internet crybabies who prove the adage of "Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics..."

You know who came up with that? I'd bet my soul against a speck of dust it was someone who sucked at arguing and never spent a minute in any sort of Debate Team.

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

part of me just kinda wishes someone would just close this thread.... each of you has an opinion on this, doesn't look like you are going to convence the other... just end the arguing... I know its not getting ugly, but still... all you are doing is arguing with each other.... there just comes a time when an unstopable force has met and inmovable object... and this is it.... (and no that line has been around way before "the dark knight".... )

[Goth Brooks]

(and no that line has been around way before "the dark knight".... )

Chuck Norris dies....

[asphyxian_doll]

This is a heated subject, and the argument I think goes beyond simply racism and goes more into a disagreement about human psychology.

I personally believe that the base of all human emotion is fear.... fear can give birth to a lot of other things such as hate... but the less ignorance there is the less fear.

GFP, I am not sure where you are coming from with this, I suppose I really just don't understand your point of view, but I can tell you feel very passionate about it.

What I do understand is Racism is a product of ignorance...

I have seen people who are full of hate who are not too racist,

I have seen racists that are full of hate...

I have seen racists that are NOT hateful

But I have NEVER seen a racist who did not have some degree of ignorance.

Im curious...where did you grow up and are you in fact anything other than white? and or have been treated as such???

O_o

racism IS a product of ignorance,

Hate is a product of fear....

yeah...

I understand that

what the point of this thread?

Most of this shit is just PARROTING.

I don't hate anyone,

I hate behavior....

and if someone is racist, for whatever reason,

exacerbating the issue by playing the "mother Theresa" of "victims of racism"

Is just going to make you seem inexperienced.

There are reasons for hate beyond ignorance and fear, whether these reasons are valid or right,

makes no difference...

racism is an issue yes i know, but I have been the racist and the victim

I have been treated like shit for being white....

Oh and THATS NOT RACISM?

But the difference is i got over that shit, and see people for more than their emitted behavior and have identified the problem.

humans in general, are all in a waking dream, white, black, orange, yellow, jaundice.....lol

....wake the fuck up....and start healing.

now lets just all agree to disagree.

and please close this POINTLESS thread.

[phee]

Im curious...where did you grow up and are you in fact anything other than white? and or have been treated as such???

O_o

racism IS a product of ignorance,

Hate is a product of fear....

yeah...

I understand that

what the point of this thread?

Most of this shit is just PARROTING.

I don't hate anyone,

I hate behavior....

and if someone is racist, for whatever reason,

exacerbating the issue by playing the "mother Theresa" of "victims of racism"

Is just going to make you seem inexperienced.

There are reasons for hate beyond ignorance and fear, whether these reasons are valid or right,

makes no difference...

racism is an issue yes i know, but I have been the racist and the victim

I have been treated like shit for being white....

Oh and THATS NOT RACISM?

But the difference is i got over that shit, and see people for more than their emitted behavior and have identified the problem.

humans in general, are all in a waking dream, white, black, orange, yellow, jaundice.....lol

....wake the fuck up....and start healing.

now lets just all agree to disagree.

and please close this POINTLESS thread.

I agree with the points you are making...

And I grew up in Ann Arbor