"Organized Religion"

[Rev.Reverence]

Discuss...Debate...I don't care.....(just try not to give Phee a headache)...

[phee]

Bane...

*takes Tylonol*

[Msterbeau]

Let's separate dogmatic from non-dogmatic. The latter is OK... The former.. not so much.

[Rev.Reverence]

I would have to say...first it matters the individual person practicing said religion..

[Msterbeau]

I would have to say...first it matters the individual person practicing said religion..

This is very true. Some make it a personal practice others turn it into a fundamentalist crusade. You can guess which one I'm OK with, no matter the religion. (Unless of course one of the tenets of the religion is to convert others... in which case it is definitely a bane.

[phee]

one of the tenets of the religion is to convert others... in which case it is definitely a bane.

INDEED

[Rev.Reverence]

Let's separate dogmatic from non-dogmatic. The latter is OK... The former.. not so much.

...I did not see that...

...don't you think to be organized the religion would need a bit of dogma?

Such as required reading & or fundamental belief structures/agreed upon variable?

[phee]

To have a discussion of this nature, people need to be on the same page as far as definitions....

What is "Religion"?

What is "Dogma"?

What is "Dogmatic Religion"?

What is a "Missionary Religion"?

[Rev.Reverence]

To have a discussion of this nature, people need to be on the same page as far as definitions....

What is "Religion"?

What is "Dogma"?

What is "Dogmatic Religion"?

What is a "Missionary Religion"?

Agreeable... can we agree on a dictionary in particular? is the Wikipedea ok?

'cause I don't have the zeal at the now to ...um...dig & cut & paste half a book...as much as you know I'ld like too.

[phee]

Dictionary.com:

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Dogma: a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church.

Missionary: (if used as an adjective) reflecting or prompted by the desire to persuade or convert others.

Can we go with those?

[Rev.Reverence]

This is very true. Some make it a personal practice others turn it into a fundamentalist crusade. You can guess which one I'm OK with, no matter the religion. (Unless of course one of the tenets of the religion is to convert others... in which case it is definitely a bane.

Ya'... I can dig that fer' sure.. my only Crusade is to make 'em THINK!

[Rev.Reverence]

Dictionary.com:

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Dogma: a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church.

Missionary: (if used as an adjective) reflecting or prompted by the desire to persuade or convert others.

Can we go with those?

Why not..."religion" even qualifies Atheism...^TECHNICALLY...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I'd tend to side with the idea that "Organized" generally better than "Disorganized". At least it tends to focus study and reflection, rather than it just being whatever random BS a particular practitioner wants to pull out their behind. Not that organized religion doesn't do the same thing at times, but its less common.

Domgic style religion-that is, religions with rules or absolute truths, not to be diverged from, I tend to have a bit more respect for than the wishy-washy roll-your-own-whatever-you-want at the time type religion that massages whatever it wants to believe into its ideology. That sounds odd generally coming from a more secular-minded person like me but If faith is something that can be called into legitimate question (not just questioned for the sake of proving it correct.) Then we remove the need for the whole mess in the first place. Dogma is a product of faith (that is belief without demonstrable evidence in my use of the term). Believing something regardless of evidence leads to some sort of dogma, it is inevitable.

If we want to say that the religion is NOT divinely inspired, and does not have any absolute truths/rules (dogmas) then we tend more to be talking about human reflection and interpretation. In that case there isn't any need for "religion" as is traditionally defined and just reason/rationality is all that's necessary. Not to say there isn't plenty of dogmatic ideas regardless of having religion or not. There are plenty of dogmatic atheists as well.

Until we become comfortable with the fact of uncertainty, we will always tend to slide into some sort of dogmatic belief system of some sort or another, organized or not. We are pattern seeking animals, its difficult to deal with uncertainty so we tend to drift toward anything that (falsely) promises it.

[Msterbeau]

I'd tend to side with the idea that "Organized" generally better than "Disorganized". At least it tends to focus study and reflection, rather than it just being whatever random BS a particular practitioner wants to pull out their behind. Not that organized religion doesn't do the same thing at times, but its less common.

Domgic style religion-that is, religions with rules or absolute truths, not to be diverged from, I tend to have a bit more respect for than the wishy-washy roll-your-own-whatever-you-want at the time type religion that massages whatever it wants to believe into its ideology. That sounds odd generally coming from a more secular-minded person like me but If faith is something that can be called into legitimate question (not just questioned for the sake of proving it correct.) Then we remove the need for the whole mess in the first place. Dogma is a product of faith (that is belief without demonstrable evidence in my use of the term). Believing something regardless of evidence leads to some sort of dogma, it is inevitable.

If we want to say that the religion is NOT divinely inspired, and does not have any absolute truths/rules (dogmas) then we tend more to be talking about human reflection and interpretation. In that case there isn't any need for "religion" as is traditionally defined and just reason/rationality is all that's necessary. Not to say there isn't plenty of dogmatic ideas regardless of having religion or not. There are plenty of dogmatic atheists as well.

Until we become comfortable with the fact of uncertainty, we will always tend to slide into some sort of dogmatic belief system of some sort or another, organized or not. We are pattern seeking animals, its difficult to deal with uncertainty so we tend to drift toward anything that (falsely) promises it.

Which segues into the question of what a spiritual practice is vs. religion. In the scheme of things, what is religions role? What does it provide that you can't get on your own?

[phee]

*Phee checks the label on the can of worms for nutrician info*

[Msterbeau]

*Phee checks the label on the can of worms for nutrician info*

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Which segues into the question of what a spiritual practice is vs. religion. In the scheme of things, what is religions role? What does it provide that you can't get on your own?

I'd be good with a 'spiritual' belief differing from a 'religious' belief only in that a spiritual belief may or may not be attached to a specific religion.

The role of all this stuff (on a personal level, its role for society is far more complicated) is to avoid uncertainty I think. We hate uncertainty, is built in. Ancestors that found patterns tended to survive, the ones that did not tended to die off. We are children of the beings that found the patterns for food, water, shelter, found the patterns for healthy living etc. The uncertainty that is left, we strive to make more certain. Were we lack proof or clearly defined patterns we invoke other methods.

I've slowly grown to LIKE uncertainty, that to me is part of the fun of living. The search for the unknown, the search for the truth. I'm pretty passionate about the search for "the truth" whatever it may be. But, I would LOVE to not have to worry if i was "doing the right thing" or not, and had THE TRUTH handed down to me in a book or via some type of divine writ. Even though I don't believe there is such a thing (at least not at the moment, even though I'm open to the idea) it would be nice.

[TitsMcGee]

I had this discussion with my mother when I was a teenager...it got me grounded for 6 months. lol

[Rev.Reverence]

^<---REV

[Simon Bar Sinister]

boon for the organizers

bane for everyone else

[Msterbeau]

I had this discussion with my mother when I was a teenager...it got me grounded for 6 months. lol

I didn't bother. I just opted out of it all...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

To be as "clinical" as I can and if I remove my own personal feelings... They are social constructs that come from a central human need to belong, married to the central human need to believe in something greater than ones self. That is not to say that every shares those needs in the exact same way or to the exact same degree. For others, they also speak to an inner need for order in a world of chaos. Structure and ritual.

This applies to everyone from the devout who belongs to a dogmatic convertionalist religion to loan spiritualists. This even applys to the athiest who holds dear the religion of Science (see the definition above minus the optional part after the word "esp.")

Also, you will never convince me that they are not all Missionary to some extant. An example, and please forgive me for using you as an example Marc, is Marc. Marc does not beleive that conversion should be part of any religion, so he does his best to convince everyone of that fact any time religion is brought up. He is therefore, trying to convert those peopel to his beleifs. Rev, forgive me, but you are always saying how everyone should just be spiritual and how much better that life is... thats being a Missionary for your beleif system.

[Scales]

Christianity in general is what I grew up in and what I most strongly dislike. I can agree with Gaf's post, and I am selling my outlook in this post.

What it comes down to for me is this:

* I see The Bible as being mostly full of folklore.

* Most of my friends, family, and community around me does not.

The same logic which Christians use to promote their belief systems, I believe refute and suppress me as an individual.

Places of worship where sermons are given, popping up around community, become the intellectual avenue for philosophy in the community, in my opinion. Because there are so many set rules and a consistent threat of punishment in organized theism, along with this idea of being the intellectual avenue of community, I believe organized religion causes community to become divided and full of stigma.

I think organized religion in the case of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity is harmful since these are the ones who spread around communities and import their belief systems into kids and the mentally ill (see: Christian counselors).

But in drunken closing, I value Chaos and uncertainty in equal regards, if not more than Science.

[Msterbeau]

Also, you will never convince me that they are not all Missionary to some extant. An example, and please forgive me for using you as an example Marc, is Marc. Marc does not beleive that conversion should be part of any religion, so he does his best to convince everyone of that fact any time religion is brought up. He is therefore, trying to convert those peopel to his beleifs. Rev, forgive me, but you are always saying how everyone should just be spiritual and how much better that life is... thats being a Missionary for your beleif system.

I don't try to convince people not to proselytize their religion, I just don't like it when they do. That's not the same. It's kinda like car salesmen and their hard sell. It's like advertising. It plays up the good and hides the downside in order to gather more followers. I think people should find their own info and make up their minds based on that, not a sales pitch. A good product sells itself. I don't talk about my being a Unitarian except when asked or occasionally as part of a post here, to make a point. I don't actively seek to convert. THAT is what a missionary does. It's the active part that defines the role.

[StormKnight (1)]

The radicals/extremists are always a concern in orgainized religion. Unfortunately, these are the people who believe they have nothing to hold on to, or think nothing in their life has meaning, aside from that one thing: Religion. Take away that one aspect of their life, and they feel empty and out of control of their life.

The bad thing is, it is the extremist and the radicals that tend to organize the religious groups into something with direction. Since it is the one thing in their life that is perceived to have meaning, they make it their whole life, and put time and energy into cohesion and organization. Then the ego takes over, and with any slight or perceived slight against their religion and what has now become dogma instead of tenets, they become hostile, unforgiving.

It is seen throughout history. Torquemada and the Inquisition, the percecution of the Shaolin, Buddhists, and so on goes the long, bloody history. People of other religions against another because it offends those extremists in charge.

I know adopting tenets of religion has saved quite a few people from destruction. It is a life-saving option. I just don't like who eventually becomes the leaders of the religion, turning tenents into dogmatic doctorines.

To bring up something I discussed on another religious topic (reposted due to my lack of knowledge of how to link):

Tom Robbins summed it up best (Still Life with Woodpecker):

There is a particularly unattractive and discouraging common affliction called tunnel vision, which, for all the misery it causes, ought to top the job list at the World Health Organization. Tunnel vision is a disease in which perception is restricted by ignorance and distorted by vested interest. Tunnel vision is caused by an optic fungus that multiplies when the brain is less energetic than the ego. It is complicated by exposure to politics. When a good idea is run through the filters and compressors of tunnel vision, it not only comes out reduced in scale and value but in its new dogmatic configuration produces effects the opposite of those for which it was originally intended.

That is how the loving ideas of Jesus Christ became the sinister cliches of Christianity. That is why virtually every revolution in history has failed: the oppressed, as soon as they seize power, turn into the oppressors, resorting to totalitarian tactics to "protect the revolution." That is why minorities seeking the abolition of prejudice become intolerant, minorities seeking peace become militant, minorities seeking equality become self-righteous, and minorities seeking liberation become hostile (a tight asshole being the first symptom of self-repression.)