Proposal 2 - Stem Cell Research

[the eternal]

I am double posting ON PURPOSE, if you can believe that.

TO ALL THE ANARCHISTS

TO ALL THE NAYSAYERS

TO ALL THE Fuck McSame and Nobama

TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY WON'T BE GOING TO THE POLLS (because it doesn't matter):

Do me one little favor.

1. Read my post again

2. Go to the polls anyway

3. Skip voting for president or any other contested race if you'd like.

4. But for g-d's sakes, take one second out of the day, to do something that ACTUALLY will have a specific and direct effect on people's lives AND

VOTE YES ON PROP 2

[sass_in_the_pants]

[quote name='the eternal' date='Oct 27 2008, 01:27 AM' post='511959'

We NEED to say it is more important to cure Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and spinal cord injuries than throwing embryos in the dumpster.

[Rev.Reverence]

[quote name='the eternal' date='Oct 27 2008, 01:27 AM' post='511959'

We NEED to say it is more important to cure Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and spinal cord injuries than throwing embryos in the dumpster.

Maybe we shouldn't be throwing human embryos in the trash in the first place?

Maybe all people deserve life, not just the ones that can speak for themselves?

They're just going to be killed anyway? Really? That's your valid reason? What about the terminally ill - they're going to die anyway, too. Or prisoners sentenced to life - they're going to die anyway, too. Or, you and me, we're going to die anyway, too. Why not us, or them?

The last time I heard that argument in defense of human experimentation was from Nazis when they performed medical experiments on the Jews. It's very easy to do such things once you have stopped regarding them as people.

What happens when the demand for embryos for stem cell research exceeds the supply, where will we get new embryos?

...these eggs are LEFTOVERS...from a fertility clinic. NOT from abortions...

THEY WERE GOING TO BE THROWN OUT... They have NO "LIFE"..they are fertilized in a group...1 is selected & implanted & the rest..THROWN OUT!

...way to keep me homie in a wheelchair Sass.....

[Rev.Reverence]

I am double posting ON PURPOSE, if you can believe that.

TO ALL THE ANARCHISTS

TO ALL THE NAYSAYERS

TO ALL THE Fuck McSame and Nobama

TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY WON'T BE GOING TO THE POLLS (because it doesn't matter):

Do me one little favor.

1. Read my post again

2. Go to the polls anyway

3. Skip voting for president or any other contested race if you'd like.

4. But for g-d's sakes, take one second out of the day, to do something that ACTUALLY will have a specific and direct effect on people's lives AND

VOTE YES ON PROP 2

ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE AN ETERNAL POST...

^{(no matter which side I'm on)}

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

Abstain. I don't know enough about this subject to make an educated vote and I believe that an uneducated vote is worse than not voting at all.

yeah, I agree with Spook on this.

[sass_in_the_pants]

...these eggs are LEFTOVERS...from a fertility clinic. NOT from abortions...

THEY WERE GOING TO BE THROWN OUT... They have NO "LIFE"..they are fertilized in a group...1 is selected & implanted & the rest..THROWN OUT!

...way to keep me homie in a wheelchair Sass.....

Again, perhaps we should not be throwing human embryos in the garbage.

They are not eggs. These are embryos. What they need to become like you and me is nutrients and an environment. That's it. Which by the way, are the same things that you and I need to live - nutrients and a proper environment. I refuse to consider them less human just because they have already been deprived of their proper environment (is a fish not a fish just because you took it out of the water?).How is it right to deprive some people of their basic human needs for the benefit of others?

Using capital letters does not improve your arguments.

And you don't know how many homies I have in wheelchairs, Rev.

Edited to add: I notice you put "life" in quotes. Why?

[krinkle]

I think any progress is a step in the right direction. Thanks to the federal restrictions who knows when real discoveries will be made, but at least this will open some previously closed doors.

Also the commercials for those who oppose prop 2 are so ignorant I would vote yes just to spite those religious crackpot fucks.

[Rev.Reverence]

yeah, I agree with Spook on this.

READ THE POST BY ETERNAL...

[Rev.Reverence]

Again, perhaps we should not be throwing human embryos in the garbage. Are you going to find peoples to carry them ALL to term?

They are not eggs. These are embryos. Made OUTSIDE...in a petri dish.

What they need to become like you and me is nutrients and an environment.

That's it. Which by the way, are the same things that you and I need to live - nutrients and a proper environment.

I refuse to consider them less human just because they have already been deprived of their proper environment (is a fish not a fish just because you took it out of the water?).NO.it is then called DINNER!

How is it right to deprive some people of their basic human needs for the benefit of others?

They have not been through the full "Initiation Rites"...ie. BIRTH. Untill then..they are not technically a Human Being...they are a Human Going to be..

ZEN tells us...LIVE NOW.

This means...NOW is the only thing we can worry about..LATER is not promised...the past is gone, the future is yet to come...so I LIVE NOW.

...if I got a Vasectomy TODAY..I would be CHOOSING to destroy ALL my "future childeren" right....where is their choice? Well, as they are a part of me...it is MY choice.

Using capital letters does not improve your arguments.

(I use them to denote the influctions in my voice...meet me in person..& you WILL understand me x10)

And you don't know how many homies I have in wheelchairs, Rev. NO...that was not my point. But now my point is doubled...you will vote against many hommies walking again.

Edited to add: I notice you put "life" in quotes. Why?

Because it is a HIGHLY debated issue...& I think it takes about 3 months for the body to be Human enough to hold a Soul.

So, to ME, the embryo is a set of instructions, a blueprint. If you put it into a body...it will make a Human...MAYBE...

(sometimes...no soul will appear...MY EXPLANATION)

...the Zygote terminates itself...I forget what it is called when this happens...but have been on the receiving end of this phenomena...

...a body with NO Soul is NOT a Human Being...it is a Human Going-to be.

[Destroit]

Again, perhaps we should not be throwing human embryos in the garbage.

They are not eggs. These are embryos. What they need to become like you and me is nutrients and an environment. That's it. Which by the way, are the same things that you and I need to live - nutrients and a proper environment. I refuse to consider them less human just because they have already been deprived of their proper environment (is a fish not a fish just because you took it out of the water?).How is it right to deprive some people of their basic human needs for the benefit of others?

Using capital letters does not improve your arguments.

And you don't know how many homies I have in wheelchairs, Rev.

Edited to add: I notice you put "life" in quotes. Why?

Yes...but they're not FARMED embryos, we didn't go about making these embryos for stem cell research. If there was NO such thing as stem cell research...they would still be there no matter what, being thrown away on a regular basis.

What you must take into consideration, Sass, is not the fact that this proposal is FOR getting embryos from women, nor will voting "no" on this proposal stop the wasting of embryos, they will continued to be wasted. If you have an issue against wasting embryos, that's an entirely different proposal.

To me the world is a shitty place. Nobody is guaranteed the right to life. Personally, I think it creates harmony in the world, when was Earth meant to be a utopia? In this world it's not always about "right" and "wrong" because, quite frankly, for the most part the lines are blurred and neither side exists, just shades of grey. In this world you constantly have to assess, "Okay, so this isn't perfect, so what is the best option?" Since at this present time the wasting of embryonic cells isn't going to halt, why is it so wrong to actually make something good out of something bad?

It's literally one of those moments where I ask "What would Jesus do?" as cheesy as that sounds. I even look at it this way, it's almost as same as the Native American view toward animal slaugher. I can assume that they weren't too happy with having to do it (in certain tribes, and this actually goes for many humans/cultures throughotu the world) but they realized that they had to slaughter animals to be able to eat. Their solution to the problem, since in this case they basically had to just try and assess the problem in order to find the best solution (not the perfect one), was to honor the animal by not wasting ANY of it. Almost every part of the animal was used, and you can say that this was purely for survival, but I"m not sure how much I buy that. Not all other cultures in the world did this, and they also were big proponents of survival, obviously, so one can assume they did this because not only was it handy, but I'm guessing they thought it was the best way to honor that animal, to see that nothing is wasted and is put to better good to help themselves and others in the tribe.

That's why it baffles me to think that anyone would want to stop this. I understand being against the wasting of embryos, but that isn't what this proposal is about. This proposal is about taking an horrible and inevitable action, the wasting of embryos, and doing what we can to at least get something positive, life saving, and productive. What is wrong with taking the life of someone who isn't going to make it...and giving it to someone else? We do the same with organ transplants, those corpses would have been wasted, we use them. The embryos will be wasted NO MATTER WHAT...so why not use them to try to make the world a better place for some of the people who are already here?

[Rev.Reverence]

To me the world is a shitty place. Nobody is guaranteed the right to life. Personally, I think it creates harmony in the world, when was Earth meant to be a utopia? In this world it's not always about "right" and "wrong" because, quite frankly, for the most part the lines are blurred and neither side exists, just shades of grey. In this world you constantly have to assess, "Okay, so this isn't perfect, so what is the best option?" Since at this present time the wasting of embryonic cells isn't going to halt, why is it so wrong to actually make something good out of something bad?

Nor the "Right" to keep it. (So long as there is murder, famine, disease)...let alone, Life is not a Gift...it is a LOAN.

[n0Mad]

And remember, this proposal isn't about whether we should do embryonic stem cell research or not, but whether it should receive federal funding. That's it. The research will still go on but it's up to you to decide if they should get government money or find funding elsewhere through the private sector.

[Rev.Reverence]

And remember, this proposal isn't about whether we should do embryonic stem cell research or not, but whether it should receive federal funding. That's it. The research will still go on but it's up to you to decide if they should get government money or find funding elsewhere through the private sector.

...hm...I did not know THAT...it'll help me spred the word!

Thanx Spook.

[Destroit]

Nor the "Right" to keep it. (So long as there is murder, famine, disease)...let alone, Life is not a Gift...it is a LOAN.

A risky loan at that...like a balloon mortgage kind of loan . You've got better odds at a casino, imo, especially if you live in Detroit.

[Rev.Reverence]

A risky loan at that...like a balloon mortgage kind of loan . You've got better odds at a casino, imo, especially if you live in Detroit.

[Slogo]

Dammit I wanna see a ManBearPig

[Destroit]

Dammit I wanna see a ManBearPig

So I take it you didn't see the season finale for South Park's season 11, a three part episode called "Imaginationland". All of your hopes and dreams will be fufilled...watch it.

[sass_in_the_pants]

Because it is a HIGHLY debated issue...& I think it takes about 3 months for the body to be Human enough to hold a Soul.

So, to ME, the embryo is a set of instructions, a blueprint. If you put it into a body...it will make a Human...MAYBE...

(sometimes...no soul will appear...MY EXPLANATION)

...the Zygote terminates itself...I forget what it is called when this happens...but have been on the receiving end of this phenomena...

...a body with NO Soul is NOT a Human Being...it is a Human Going-to be.

you think it takes 3 months? Think? You're not sure? So is there a chance that your calculation of 3 months is wrong? If it is, what would that mean in an issue such as this? What if 'ensoulment' happens immediately, and you voted to destroy human embryos - what have you done, then?

I am very curious...why do you say 3 months? What happens to a fetus on day 90 to make it so fundamentally different from what it was on day 89? I hope that question sounded genuine, because I genuinely don't understand the difference between a fetus on day 89 and day 90. What happens during that one particular night?

An egg is a set of instructions. A sperm is a set of instructions. Once combined, they are a completely unique entity. It starts as one cell, and divides and grows, given a proper environment and nutrients. How is that not life?

Zygote terminating itself...are you talking about a spontaneous abortion? Research varies, but it suggests that such a thing happens to (depending on who you listen to) anywhere from 10% to 30% of pregnancies. But I don't understand what natural death has to do with unnatural death.

And...much like the blogthings...I don't know how to quote a quote, so forgive me if this is choppy in this next section.

>>They are not eggs. These are embryos. Made OUTSIDE...in a petri dish.

Does where a human embryo was conceived make a difference as to how human it is? if so, why?

And as far as finding someone to carry them to term - why did we create humans if we had no intention of letting them live?

>>They have not been through the full "Initiation Rites"...ie. BIRTH. Untill then..they are not technically a Human Being...they are a Human Going to be..

So, the day before I delivered my babies, they weren't babies? What were they? What made the difference? Sure, I was different the day before I had them, versus the day after them (I lost 35 pounds in one day for starters...try THAT diet on for size...) but in what way were THEY different?

And what's a human going-to-be? Now, Rev, I know you are interested in science, and I do read SOME scientific literature, but I have never, ever, ever come across the term human-going-to-be...

>>ZEN tells us...LIVE NOW.

This means...NOW is the only thing we can worry about..LATER is not promised...the past is gone, the future is yet to come...so I LIVE NOW.

But these are human embryos and they ARE alive. Right now. They're certainly not dead, or else no one would have any interest in them.

>>...if I got a Vasectomy TODAY..I would be CHOOSING to destroy ALL my "future childeren" right....where is their choice? Well, as they are a part of me...it is MY choice.

All of your um...how can I say this delicately...man bits...(I can't believe I just typed man bits)...but anyway, yes, that IS you, entirely. A zygote is NOT you. Your 'future children' don't exist. You haven't destroyed them. These are human beings. And they exist, right now.

>>Using capital letters does not improve your arguments.

(I use them to denote the influctions in my voice...meet me in person..& you WILL understand me x10)

Okay. I believe you. Sorry about that.

[sass_in_the_pants]

Yes...but they're not FARMED embryos, we didn't go about making these embryos for stem cell research. If there was NO such thing as stem cell research...they would still be there no matter what, being thrown away on a regular basis.

What you must take into consideration, Sass, is not the fact that this proposal is FOR getting embryos from women, nor will voting "no" on this proposal stop the wasting of embryos, they will continued to be wasted. If you have an issue against wasting embryos, that's an entirely different proposal.

To me the world is a shitty place. Nobody is guaranteed the right to life. Personally, I think it creates harmony in the world, when was Earth meant to be a utopia? In this world it's not always about "right" and "wrong" because, quite frankly, for the most part the lines are blurred and neither side exists, just shades of grey. In this world you constantly have to assess, "Okay, so this isn't perfect, so what is the best option?" Since at this present time the wasting of embryonic cells isn't going to halt, why is it so wrong to actually make something good out of something bad?

It's literally one of those moments where I ask "What would Jesus do?" as cheesy as that sounds. I even look at it this way, it's almost as same as the Native American view toward animal slaugher. I can assume that they weren't too happy with having to do it (in certain tribes, and this actually goes for many humans/cultures throughotu the world) but they realized that they had to slaughter animals to be able to eat. Their solution to the problem, since in this case they basically had to just try and assess the problem in order to find the best solution (not the perfect one), was to honor the animal by not wasting ANY of it. Almost every part of the animal was used, and you can say that this was purely for survival, but I"m not sure how much I buy that. Not all other cultures in the world did this, and they also were big proponents of survival, obviously, so one can assume they did this because not only was it handy, but I'm guessing they thought it was the best way to honor that animal, to see that nothing is wasted and is put to better good to help themselves and others in the tribe.

That's why it baffles me to think that anyone would want to stop this. I understand being against the wasting of embryos, but that isn't what this proposal is about. This proposal is about taking an horrible and inevitable action, the wasting of embryos, and doing what we can to at least get something positive, life saving, and productive. What is wrong with taking the life of someone who isn't going to make it...and giving it to someone else? We do the same with organ transplants, those corpses would have been wasted, we use them. The embryos will be wasted NO MATTER WHAT...so why not use them to try to make the world a better place for some of the people who are already here?

I have answers to this...but my two full grown embryos just woke up...more later...

[Rev.Reverence]

you think it takes 3 months? Think? You're not sure?

Are we ever SURE about anything? ...but I changed me mind...NOW, I think that at birth the Soul enters the Body. (& what a fickle mind it can be...)

So is there a chance that your calculation of 3 months is wrong? If it is, what would that mean in an issue such as this? What if 'ensoulment' happens immediately, and you voted to destroy human embryos - what have you done, then?

I am very curious...why do you say 3 months? What happens to a fetus on day 90 to make it so fundamentally different from what it was on day 89? I hope that question sounded genuine, because I genuinely don't understand the difference between a fetus on day 89 and day 90. What happens during that one particular night?

Yes -&-No... they were human Bodys, & a Soul hovering on the astral plane, following you around...watching...waiting..."on deck".

They were not "put together yet"...(some assembly may be required) {like if the baby is dead...& they give it CPR...}

..let's start with MORE ZEN...ZEN sais that "sorrow is there to bring us to the "learning place" [in our minds]...is a child does not make it out of the womb then it fails it's "Initiation"...it get's togo back to the "Soul Jar" (there are many different terms for where different peoples believe where Souls come from...I use this one, 'cause it was not already "taken", & since I take into account a good number of these ideals when formulating what pass for "Beliefs" in this dingie grey thing that I call my brain)...then it goes back through the process.....but of the CHILDREN that are Born, they have received their first stress, pain, BREATH...breath is a whole 'nother thing...it is the last of the 4 Material Elemental powers to be put into the Mind/Body/Soul apparatus that we call a Human Being...I guess that is it BREATH...that makes us US... First, there is nothing...& 2 bits of 23 (Hail ERIS) stuff..touches 23 (Hail ERIS some more) other bits of stuff...then they become 1 thing...which becomes 2 then 4 then 8 (etc.) which I see this process as a repetition of Spiritually significant Symbols & Ideals from Esoteric Traditions around the world...

....ie. Female (water), Male (fire); combine to make a self-replicating mass of goo...then it starts to solidify with the absorption of minerals (earth) from the mothers blood making a new Body made of bone & muscle (earth), filled with blood (water), controlled by a nervous system, {runs on electricity(fire)}; that requires first & foremost air by means of Breath (air)...once a baby can take that first breath of air...it can hold the Soul (Spirit, or Eather; the fifth element)

...& I thought of the Oxygen in the mothers blood as air...until I was writing this...then I realized an error in my previous thoughts...the mothers blood is water...it has no air...it carries MOLECULES of Oxegen & other gasses to the foetus...that is NOT air...& can't be even thought of as air, because of the things that are filtered out by the mothers lungs & other systems (I 'm pretty sure {can I get a DR. over here?})...thereby blood is mineral water.

An egg is a set of instructions. A sperm is a set of instructions. Once combined, they are a completely unique entity. It starts as one cell, and divides and grows, given a proper environment and nutrients. How is that not life?

Zygote terminating itself...are you talking about a spontaneous abortion? Research varies, but it suggests that such a thing happens to (depending on who you listen to) anywhere from 10% to 30% of pregnancies. But I don't understand what natural death has to do with unnatural death.

They told me (I think) more like 40-55%..so much of a skew in probability that ACTUALLY having a baby becomes a horridly random thing...unless you try everyday, or know what a menstrual cycle is......which is why I remember the situation so vividly...it is "filed" under W...for WEIRD...

Does where a human embryo was conceived make a difference as to how human it is? if so, why?

And as far as finding someone to carry them to term - why did we create humans if we had no intention of letting them live?

...the doctors & lab techs fertilize & freeze(I 'm pretty sure {can I get a DR. over here?}) a whole bunch of these "preparations" (in case they do not work out for some reason.)

>>They have not been through the full "Initiation Rites"...ie. BIRTH. Untill then..they are not technically a Human Being...they are a Human Going to be..

So, the day before I delivered my babies, they weren't babies? What were they? What made the difference? Sure, I was different the day before I had them, versus the day after them (I lost 35 pounds in one day for starters...try THAT diet on for size...) but in what way were THEY different?

And what's a human going-to-be? Now, Rev, I know you are interested in science, and I do read SOME scientific literature, but I have never, ever, ever come across the term human-going-to-be...

(I know...I made it up! That's how we get NEW words & concepts... ){& thanx...I forgot to use hyphens...they are my fav letter }

>>ZEN tells us...LIVE NOW.

This means...NOW is the only thing we can worry about..LATER is not promised...the past is gone, the future is yet to come...so I LIVE NOW.

But these are human embryos and they ARE alive. Right now. They're certainly not dead, or else no one would have any interest in them.

NO...they are NOT alive...they are frozen...if thawed...& put into a Womb, they will have the CHANCE to be born...

Okay. I believe you. Sorry about that.

No worries.

(3hours later...I am done formulating)...{really I just r sukie typist}...(hope I did not miss a somethin')

[sass_in_the_pants]

Yes...but they're not FARMED embryos, we didn't go about making these embryos for stem cell research. If there was NO such thing as stem cell research...they would still be there no matter what, being thrown away on a regular basis.

What you must take into consideration, Sass, is not the fact that this proposal is FOR getting embryos from women, nor will voting "no" on this proposal stop the wasting of embryos, they will continued to be wasted. If you have an issue against wasting embryos, that's an entirely different proposal.

To me the world is a shitty place. Nobody is guaranteed the right to life. Personally, I think it creates harmony in the world, when was Earth meant to be a utopia? In this world it's not always about "right" and "wrong" because, quite frankly, for the most part the lines are blurred and neither side exists, just shades of grey. In this world you constantly have to assess, "Okay, so this isn't perfect, so what is the best option?" Since at this present time the wasting of embryonic cells isn't going to halt, why is it so wrong to actually make something good out of something bad?

It's literally one of those moments where I ask "What would Jesus do?" as cheesy as that sounds. I even look at it this way, it's almost as same as the Native American view toward animal slaugher. I can assume that they weren't too happy with having to do it (in certain tribes, and this actually goes for many humans/cultures throughotu the world) but they realized that they had to slaughter animals to be able to eat. Their solution to the problem, since in this case they basically had to just try and assess the problem in order to find the best solution (not the perfect one), was to honor the animal by not wasting ANY of it. Almost every part of the animal was used, and you can say that this was purely for survival, but I"m not sure how much I buy that. Not all other cultures in the world did this, and they also were big proponents of survival, obviously, so one can assume they did this because not only was it handy, but I'm guessing they thought it was the best way to honor that animal, to see that nothing is wasted and is put to better good to help themselves and others in the tribe.

That's why it baffles me to think that anyone would want to stop this. I understand being against the wasting of embryos, but that isn't what this proposal is about. This proposal is about taking an horrible and inevitable action, the wasting of embryos, and doing what we can to at least get something positive, life saving, and productive. What is wrong with taking the life of someone who isn't going to make it...and giving it to someone else? We do the same with organ transplants, those corpses would have been wasted, we use them. The embryos will be wasted NO MATTER WHAT...so why not use them to try to make the world a better place for some of the people who are already here?

What happens when the supply of human embryos doesn't meet the demands?

With embryonic stem cell research, you are not only destroying human lives, but you are creating a market for doing so. You have now enshrined the need for destruction of human embryos.

Let's say that pharmaceutical companies have found the cure for everything under the sun using embryonic stem cells. Do you think they would ever allow themselves to run out of such a wonderful panacea? Do you think that they would go to great lengths (as they have in the past and continue to do so in developing nations) to ensure that they are still able to bring their product to market? You don't think they would pay women for their unborn children? Women already pay to get rid of their unborn children. I hesitate to think of what would happen if they could actually stand to profit from it, too.

Why stop at human embryos? What about babies with Trisomy 18? You probably already know about it, but for those who don't of babies with Trisomy 18, 95% die in utero, and of those surviving only 50% live to two months. Since the death of babies due to Trisomy 18 isn't going to halt, what would be so wrong with using them for research? Or any of the terminally ill? Since the terminally ill are going to die anyway, what would be so wrong with using them for research?

Let's talk about the organ transplant situation. In such a case, I, the donor, made a CHOICE. I CHOSE, of my own free will, to donate my body for a useful purpose. Certainly these embryos didn't make such a choice. How is it fair that we sentence them to death? They had no say in the matter.

In addition, with organ transplants, we are dealing with a dead person. These are living beings. You cannot kill an adult person and use their parts in someone else. Why do we allow it with the smallest of us?

I don't think it sounds cheesy at all that you ask yourself what Jesus would do in such a situation. You have decided on a moral guidepost, and I think it is fair and honest that you stick with said moral guidepost.

So, please, if you could show me in scripture where Jesus okays the murder of children for research purposes, I would be very interested to see such a thing. I think he actually spoke at length about the necessity of protecting human life.

[bean]

The last time I heard that argument in defense of human experimentation was from Nazis when they performed medical experiments on the Jews. It's very easy to do such things once you have stopped regarding them as people.

I'm sorry, I need to thread jack for a moment.

Why is it that when people disagree with something, some sort of Nazi/Jew comment is made. Were you just trying to insult the eternal? because, you know, he has never mentioned it before or anything, that he's a Jew. Throwing this little commentary into something is a HUGE INSULT TO HIM AND HIS PEOPLE, and is horribly insensitive. Go ahead and whine that I'm being petty, I really don't care. I will not tolerate someone I love being insulted. It's fucking bullshit.

[Oh_My_Goth]

I'm sorry, I need to thread jack for a moment.

Why is it that when people disagree with something, some sort of Nazi/Jew comment is made. Were you just trying to insult the eternal? because, you know, he has never mentioned it before or anything, that he's a Jew. Throwing this little commentary into something is a HUGE INSULT TO HIM AND HIS PEOPLE, and is horribly insensitive. Go ahead and whine that I'm being petty, I really don't care. I will not tolerate someone I love being insulted. It's fucking bullshit.

YEAH.....

[bean]

Maybe we shouldn't be throwing human embryos in the trash in the first place?

Maybe all people deserve life, not just the ones that can speak for themselves?

They're just going to be killed anyway? Really? That's your valid reason? What about the terminally ill - they're going to die anyway, too. Or prisoners sentenced to life - they're going to die anyway, too. Or, you and me, we're going to die anyway, too. Why not us, or them?

The last time I heard that argument in defense of human experimentation was from Nazis when they performed medical experiments on the Jews. It's very easy to do such things once you have stopped regarding them as people.

What happens when the demand for embryos for stem cell research exceeds the supply, where will we get new embryos?

So what is supposed to happen with all those embryos then? Turn them into children that will have to suffer in foster care with all the other unwanted children? Then you'll complain that the government is spending too much money on the foster care system and they are just children who came from drug addict prostitutes anyway, so, fuck 'em, who cares, right?

Maybe the pro life people who love the hell out of fertility clinics should start bombing them and murdering fertility doctors just like they do with abortion clinics and doctors because throwing away embryos is murder then, right?

Do you mourn every time you or other females you know have a period because a potential for life was thrown away by your bodies? Do your mourn every time you have sex because all those sperm die, and they could have potentially created life?

[Rev.Reverence]

So what is supposed to happen with all those embryos then? Turn them into children that will have to suffer in foster care with all the other unwanted children? Then you'll complain that the government is spending too much money on the foster care system and they are just children who came from drug addict prostitutes anyway, so, fuck 'em, who cares, right?

Maybe the pro life people who love the hell out of fertility clinics should start bombing them and murdering fertility doctors just like they do with abortion clinics and doctors because throwing away embryos is murder then, right?

Do you mourn every time you or other females you know have a period because a potential for life was thrown away by your bodies? Do your mourn every time you have sex because all those sperm die, and they could have potentially created life?

*high five*