Do We Actually Do That?

[Shade Everdark]

Bush Claims, "We Do Not Tortue"

President Bush claims that we do not torture the detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Yet he won't allow UN health inspectors to privately interview the detainees, and he is seeking to exempt the CIA from legislation just approved by the Senate that would officially outlaw tortue.

Do you think tortue is being sanctioned down in Gitmo?

Do you think it's okay if we are?

Is the Bush administration just being secretive?

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

i almost care....

seriously I am more concerned about the prisoners here in the USA (That I dont actually care about) than I am about some terrorists or people too stupid to stay out of the way of the "pissed off USA"

I think im going to worry about somthing serious, like what I am having for dinner

[phee]

We will never know for sure

[The_Dark]

I don't think torture is going on at Gitmo.... I think if anything we treat them to well. Have you seen the meals they get? We bend over backwards to respect their religion and beleifs...

As for the CIA.. I am all for excempting them. The CIA does not operate within the borders of the USA. I think they should only be restricted by the laws of the coountry they are operating in.

And yes... The Administration is being way secrative.

[Goth Brooks]

Depends on how one defines torture.

According to reports, female soldiers have been guarding/working with detainees in Gitmo, totally against their beliefs, and supposedly some men have been sent into near shock because of it.

I don't believe that is torture. I see no reason to respect a prisoner's personal beliefs, as long as they are not physically harmed. If they're so bloody brainwashed that being around a chick on the rag gives them seizures, then they should blame Allah.

[DarkVampire]

I don't think torture is going on at Gitmo.... I think if anything we treat them to well. Have you seen the meals they get? We bend over backwards to respect their religion and beleifs...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So true.

If the situation was reversed do you think they would show the same thing to our people being kept prisoner by them? No.

[Steven]

War is war.

Terror is Terror.

Enemies are enemies.

If I beleived a man or woman - had information and intent via association to harm someone I loved - I'd view that person as my enemy with full intent to do me and my loved ones harm.

Terrorists are people too. Yes.

with lovely children, wives, families, pet dogs, a God that they worship, etc etc etc. Some of them have lovely singing voices and warm smiles.

But I'd still bleed him before he could bleed me.

And If I had to bleed him slow to get the information I needed to save lives - I would very probably do this.

Because beelive me, he would do it to me.

And to you.

and to your children. If you think he would not - you are out of touch with reality and this world we live in.

We have this warped and wanting perspective on war and engagement.

Not everyone should be a soldier.

War is vile. It is evil, unfair, horrific. It ruins entire generations and seeds the fear of future generations.

But its also reality.

Yes I beleive many wrongs have occurred in Gitmo and continue to occur. And that You and I will never know the truth. And that is probably a good thing in the end, so that we can sleep better snuggled up in our ideals.

As for the CIA - they operate wherever they want to. Including here at home. Doesent matter what is legislated - that's all for public consumption - it does not apply to the real world. It never has.

[Shade Everdark]

But I'd still bleed him before he could bleed me.

And If I had to bleed him slow to get the information I needed to save lives - I would very probably do this. 

Because beelive me, he would do it to me.

And to you.

and to your children.  If you think he would not - you are out of touch with reality and this world we live in.

We have this warped and wanting perspective on war and engagement.

Not everyone should be a soldier.

War is vile.  It is evil, unfair, horrific.  It ruins entire generations and seeds the fear of future generations.

But its also reality.

Yes I beleive many wrongs have occurred in Gitmo and continue to occur.  And that You and I will never know the truth.  And that is probably a good thing in the end, so that we can sleep better snuggled up in our ideals.

As for the CIA - they operate wherever they want to.  Including here at home.  Doesent matter what is legislated - that's all for public consumption - it does not apply to the real world.  It never has.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can appreciate your desire to hurt one of these people to get information that could save lives. But what if it doesn't? What if he lies about some terrorist plot, in order to stop the torture? Then you've sold your principles, and the principles of the entire nation, for a hoax. I think we'll probably need to agree to disagree, but if I had to, I myself would rather die and keep my principles intact. Without them, I don't see muc point to life.

Just because war is vile, doesn't mean I can't hold out the hope (faint though it is) that in some future generation, we'll have eliminated the need for it.

If wrongs have occurred in Guantanamo, and I do say if, then I believe we not only have the right to know, we have the responsibility to know. It may be that he who increases knowledge increases sorrow, but the bliss of ignorance is hollow and false.

As for the CIA, I think we can all agree that a good housecleaning is in order, there. Because as much as the sound and fury about legislation regarding the CIA is not applicable to the real world, it seems that much of their intelligence is the same.

[The_Dark]

I have to agree. Torture has been shown to produce false answers more often than true answers. People will say anything to get the bamboo from under thier toe nails.

[phee]

I have to agree. Torture has been shown to produce false answers more often than true answers. People will say anything to get the bamboo from under thier toe nails.

And even if it did work (which it doesn't) The PR caused from it could have a shockwave causeing even more violence towards us

[pharoh]

IMO the bush admin has been secretive, but I am all for torture if its for a good cause. I am tired of us having set rules and guidelines that only we follow only to be "the bigger person".

Those who know me here know I am very outspoken, but certain things...mostly religion and politics I keep to myself, but I think we are way to conservative on these matters.

[Steven]

I can appreciate your desire to hurt one of these people to get information that could save lives.  But what if it doesn't?  What if he lies about some terrorist plot, in order to stop the torture?  Then you've sold your principles, and the principles of the entire nation, for a hoax.  I think we'll probably need to agree to disagree, but if I had to, I myself would rather die and keep my principles intact.  Without them, I don't see muc point to life.

Just because war is vile, doesn't mean I can't hold out the hope (faint though it is) that in some future generation, we'll have eliminated the need for it.

If wrongs have occurred in Guantanamo, and I do say if, then I believe we not only have the right to know, we have the responsibility to know.  It may be that he who increases knowledge increases sorrow, but the bliss of ignorance is hollow and false. 

As for the CIA, I think we can all agree that a good housecleaning is in order, there.  Because as much as the sound and fury about legislation regarding the CIA is not applicable to the real world, it seems that much of their intelligence is the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand how you feel. And, I think it's a worthwhile point of view. But I suppose I'm a bit jaded. And, I've been a soldier, and know that many many things never see the public light of day - including atrocities committed against americans. Sometimes even by Americans. And I am also a beleiver that the war machine is what it always has been, and that to attempt to re-create it is not truly realistic. Honerable yes, realistic, no.

My points of view certainly are not concrete nor do I beleive that I am "right" in a black and white sense. Its just not that simple. And I am at the core - a conflicted humanitarian who has simply seen too many things, and am quick to respond almost savagely when those I love are threatened. You hear that conflict in my posts.

As for the possibility that I could be wrong and therefore violate my own principles - I understand this, but for me, my own principles allow for real world error, for my own mental well being. To me its no different than if my enemy was firing at me from inside of a schoolyard or a church. He intends to kill me. I will - fire back. And I will also have to later deal with what I've done. But in the moment - I will do whatever I must do to live. Not everyone is this way. But I am. And I'm forward and honest with it. I really have no choice.

Steven