Pessimism or Realism?

[Onyx]

Maybe this belongs in LiveJournal rather than here, but I'm also interested in seeing who else finds their view of life changing in this way.

I've always been optimistic, even amidst in my darkest depression (with the exception of the quite strange depression I had when suffering from anemia). Nothing ever kept me down for long. I tried several careers, didn't consider the ones that didn't work out failures, just stepping stones. I've had several very bad things happen in my life and actually had one person ask me how I kept from offing myself through it all.

I used to bounce back from literally any setback, given time and a few resources.

Lately I can not seem to find even a glimmer of the old hope I used to see. I seem to have given up on many things I used to work toward (some which appeared and probably were hopeless but I kept working toward anyway).

My world view is changing too. Things I used to believe sound absolutely ludicrous to me now. I used to believe in a kind of Karma I suppose - that people eventually get what they deserve. I've seen it happen in some cases but I've also seen some very "bad" things happen to "good" people, and they keep happening. People are murdered, friends betray friends, and cancer cuts lives short. The meaning I used to find in life seems empty. There is a couple out this way who were murdered by their "friends" and it just brought it home to me how life all seems so random. I didn't used to think so.

When it rains though, everyone gets wet, good and bad. There really is no black and white, no absolute right and wrong, only shades of gray.

I don't *like* being pessimistic. It feels like I'm getting too old and tired to even look forward to the future (and maybe I am).

I think optimists get much more accomplished. There is a certain amount of faith required to finish any worthy project. I wonder, where has mine gone?

[phee]

Good post Miss...

I don't believe in Karma either, it has been quite awhile... I like the idea of it, but it doesn't work that way from what I can see...

If there is higher powers at work, then I can see no pattern or evidence of how they work... Not saying that they are not there, just that I can't see it...

The only thing I seem to be able to control at best, is my reaction to the chaos and impartial universe we live in... and sometimes I can't even control that...

I don't think that this is pesimistic, realistic, or optimistic, just the way I am...

[Steven]

....Wish I knew how to express my thoughts on this subject with something more tangible...

.... Good and evil has always been here, and people have alwasy been this way. I think that as we grew older, we simply lose our ability to filter out and repel the long term effects.

Even in biblical writings the prophet pleads before God because evil men are blessed while the righteous are oppressed.......

....yet there is also the counter balance for the seeker.

I've seen and been many things in my life.

Enough to know, that my own vision and strength is simply not enough to sustain me, and I'm no wimp, nor am I naive, nor am I inexperienced. But what I am...is exhaustible, as are all people. I have my gifts, I have my strengths, I have my passion.....but I am not omnicient. I'm just...... Steven.

I seek with expectation Onyx.

But there are dry spells in the wilderness where I see little goodness, or simply cannot hear the voice of God or feel his presence. There have been times when it has taken me years to complete a journey back to the light. But every time I do return. And every time I am thankful for the journey, and every time I become something more...closer perhaps...to what God intended me to be. So that these tigns can be put to good use. Living just to live.....to me that is a wasteful and empty life, a life without purpose.

I do beleive that faith - and hope - these things are energy sources and tools that help you accomplish and overcome much. I also beleive that at time sone must ask God for these things....because when your emotionally and spiritually exhausted you cant just drum up a bunch of faith and hope on your own. We can throw out shiney words all day like Karma, and Spirituality, and Psychology, and relativism...... I hear that stuff all day every day from every corner. But I see very few workign examples of that.

and everybody loses their faith Onyx...all of us.

Some of us wait for it to return.

And so of us doggedly pursue it. I dont know how to explain it any clearer than that but I do beleive that it is true.

The truth is, I simply have no control over my life. There is freedom in this...expendable yet not expended. Death to self is meant to run much deeper than we hear it explained.

I will lose it (my life) whenever that day comes...nothing I can do about it.

But I have a great deal of say so on how to live it while I've got it.

Steven

[Scary Guy]

Hey, welcome to my world lol.

Anyhow what you have to remember is life isn't fair. It is completely random. Karma does exist, at least to a point. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, which is a kind of karma I think and one can take comfort in that. Then in instances where karma is lacking and I can do something about it, I like to become karma.

What and black are just shades too you know, and nothing is right or wrong technically, that is just defined by society/the majority (usually). Over time everyone becomes jaded. But I am a realist, and the glass is neither half full or half empty, the glass and the liquid contained within (if any) are just there. This brings to mind a quote...

"You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength." - Marcus Aurelius

Not actually the one I was hunting for but it seems better than the other one now.

[kellygrrrrrl]

I feel that I am similar. I TRY to be optimistic, but with everything that has happened in my life, and things I have seen that I shouldn't have, and done things etc...sometimes you just get defeated.

You try and try, you have hope and that doesn't work, you try to see the best in things, people, world events, but it ends up slapping you in the face.

Seeing the things we have seen has de-sensitized us, made us numb, the drugs we are on, that makes us numb, everyone is telling what to be or how to be the ideal human, we see and we want, we want and don't get. We have idea's of how things should be, we srtive for it, then find out it wasn't right, etc....

You just get worn down. Reality is a bitch.

All you can do is go with the flow and try to make the best of what you have. Which may not be much, but there is ALWAYS someone out there that has it worse. MUCH worse. Yet, how are they content happy folks? Or are they?

Simplicity is bliss. Ignorance is bliss.

I don't know. I'm just me. I get up's and down's. I get bummed out. I get happy at times, and mad. I am just a big ball of emotion.

I think having passion for life lights up the mind.

*Ramble Ramble*.... :erm

[kellygrrrrrl]

....Wish I knew how to express my thoughts on this subject with something more tangible...

.... Good and evil has always been here, and people have alwasy been this way.  I think that as we grew older, we simply lose our ability to filter out and repel the long term effects.

Even in biblical writings the prophet pleads before God because evil men are blessed while the righteous are oppressed.......

....yet there is also the counter balance for the seeker.

I've seen and been many things in my life.

Enough to know, that my own vision and strength is simply not enough to sustain me, and I'm no wimp, nor am I naive, nor am I inexperienced.  But what I am...is exhaustible, as are all people.  I have my gifts, I have my strengths, I have my passion.....but I am not omnicient.  I'm just...... Steven. 

I seek with expectation Onyx.

But there are dry spells in the wilderness where I see little goodness, or simply cannot hear the voice of God or feel his presence.  There have been times when it has taken me years to complete a journey back to the light.  But every time I do return.  And every time I am thankful for the journey, and every time I become something more...closer perhaps...to what God intended me to be.  So that these tigns can be put to good use.  Living just to live.....to me that is a wasteful and empty life, a life without purpose.

I do beleive that faith - and hope - these things are energy sources and tools that help you accomplish and overcome much.  I also beleive that at time sone must ask God for these things....because when your emotionally and spiritually exhausted you cant just drum up a bunch of faith and hope on your own.  We can throw out shiney words all day like Karma, and Spirituality, and Psychology, and relativism...... I hear that stuff all day every day from every corner.  But I see very few workign examples of that. 

and everybody loses their faith Onyx...all of us.

Some of us wait for it to return.

And so of us doggedly pursue it.  I dont know how to explain it any clearer than that but I do beleive that it is true.

The truth is, I simply have no control over my life.  There is freedom in this...expendable yet not expended.  Death to self is meant to run much deeper than we hear it explained.

I will lose it (my life) whenever that day comes...nothing I can do about it.

But I have a great deal of say so on how to live it while I've got it.

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I look forward to your elaborations Steven. You have a lot of great things to say. Very humbling.

[phee]

I really have seen no evidence of universal good and evil, just personal good and evil.

[AstralCrux]

That's it you are going to CC next weekend 'cause you need to and I'll be there! Dang it anyhow! And, we should all do an afterparty thing and grab a hotel room! You need to socialize..... so get your butt down to the club and party with me.

[Onyx]

That's it you are going to CC next weekend 'cause you need to and I'll be there!  Dang it anyhow!  And, we should all do an afterparty thing and grab a hotel room!  You need to socialize..... so get your butt down to the club and party with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds like fun but unfortunately it looks like I may have to work this weekend. :(

[Shade Everdark]

and everybody loses their faith Onyx...all of us.

Some of us wait for it to return.

And so of us doggedly pursue it.  I dont know how to explain it any clearer than that but I do beleive that it is true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some of us never had faith to begin with. I don't mean faith in a higher power, here. I mean faith in humanity, faith that we can make things better if we try. For some of us, that's just not there.

I'm sorry you're down in the hole with us, Onyx. That's about all I can think of to say.

[phee]

Some of us never had faith to begin with.  I don't mean faith in a higher power, here.  I mean faith in humanity, faith that we can make things better if we try.  For some of us, that's just not there.

I'm sorry you're down in the hole with us, Onyx.  That's about all I can think of to say.

Yup.... and yup

[Steven]

Some of us never had faith to begin with.  I don't mean faith in a higher power, here.  I mean faith in humanity, faith that we can make things better if we try.  For some of us, that's just not there.

I'm sorry you're down in the hole with us, Onyx.  That's about all I can think of to say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... i can accept this to a degree Shade, and I respect it.

I do not always speak of faith in Godly terms.

for example, the faith that I lose or have lost from time to time:

Faith in myself - that I have talent - that I have worth - that I have wisdom - that I have anythign to offer.

Faith in people - that they care for one another - that they are capable of NOT being self serving - that words like honor are dusty laughable pipe dreams.

Faith in the church - as an organized and failed and god-less entity

Faith in the USA - although I am a patriot and soldier at heart, I lose heart.

Faith in men in general - that men no longer lead and stand strong or even consider strength balanced with sensitivity.

Faith in our value system as it relates to society in general.

................................................................................

...................

But I do beleive all people have faith Shade. Look at the name you have chosen for yourself: Shade Everdark.

you seem to have faith that all is pointless existence without pre-ordained purpose or an end-all beyond flipping the switch to off. that is faith. that faith will either lead you in one direction or the other. it will either motivate you or regress you, but it is faith nonetheless.

Same thing with worship.

Worship translates to "that which you yeild to"

and we all yeild. Every single person in this room.

You said a moment ago that your in hole...and perhaps Onyx is with you???? That is the place where you yeild...to meanininglessness....to nothingness...which you call realism. Yet you also refer to yourself as being in darkness. I'm not disrespecting it - simply citing it as what currently identifies you.

it is always interesting to me that this approach or beleif or lack of beleif is paired up with a statemetn like "my world".... because is it really yours? If you had control of it - hence it being yours - would you truly not change it?

I dont have a world of my very own, I'm just a man, who has been many kinds of men, but a man is all I am. I am surrounded by this world I live in. It presses in on my everyday. And as much as I can, I press back. This is my fight - to simply stand against what tries to engulf my mind. Sometimes I make great strides. Sometimes i only gain inches or slip backward. Its worth it to me, the fight. people either relate to that or they do not. But I cant wait for a giant lightning bolt from God or a burning bush to give me something to act upon or decide upon.

And if we are truly created in the image of God (as I beleive we are) and this very same God created all things by literally speaking it into being - I am therefore - a person with creative power by that which I speak into being. And I dont speak into my life - defeat.

I never do that - for a reason.

we only lose what we give up.

Steven

[phee]

Smart response as usual Steven.... Thanks....

With those terms I definitly have faith in myself, and those I trust...

[Onyx]

This has all been VERY interesting to read, and thank you all for your thoughts (would love to hear from more also). I'm fascinated by all the different viewpoints.

I'm sorry you're down in the hole with us, Onyx.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strange, I find that comforting somehow. :cheerful

[torn asunder]

if i have the mental energy later, i'll try to pop in & contribute my $0.000002 (as you can see, my opinion doesn't go very far...)

[Shade Everdark]

... i can accept this to a degree Shade, and I respect it.

I do not always speak of faith in Godly terms.

for example, the faith that I lose or have lost from time to time:

Faith in myself - that I have talent - that I have worth - that I have wisdom - that I have anythign to offer.

Faith in people - that they care for one another - that they are capable of NOT being self serving - that words like honor are dusty laughable pipe dreams.

Faith in the church - as an organized and failed and god-less entity

Faith in the USA - although I am a patriot and soldier at heart, I lose heart.

Faith in men in general - that men no longer lead and stand strong or even consider strength balanced with sensitivity.

Faith in our value system as it relates to society in general.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many of these were the faiths I was referring to, Steven, and was merely trying to make sure the differentiation was understood.

................................................................................

...................

But I do beleive all people have faith Shade.  Look at the name you have chosen for yourself:  Shade Everdark. 

you seem to have faith that all is pointless existence without pre-ordained purpose or an end-all beyond flipping the switch to off.  that is faith.  that faith will either lead you in one direction or the other.  it will either motivate you or regress you, but it is faith nonetheless.

Same thing with worship.

Worship translates to "that which you yeild to"

and we all yeild.  Every single person in this room.

You said a moment ago that your in hole...and perhaps Onyx is with you????  That is the place where you yeild...to meanininglessness....to nothingness...which you call realism.  Yet you also refer to yourself as being in darkness.  I'm not disrespecting it - simply citing it as what currently identifies you. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will urge you here not to confuse faith with assumption. I make what assumptions I need to, to get by in the world, and as we all do, I am sure I make more assumptions than are strictly necessary. But I don't believe the world is meaningless. I don't believe the world has meaning. It seems to me, from my experience, and my learning, that the world is what one makes of it. I'm sorry if what I've made of mine is unpalatable to some out there.

Like others, I also yield, when I find it either necessary or prudent to do so. I do so fairly often, because it is easier to bend like a willow than snap like an old oak. I would never call that 'worship', though. Worship is something you'll never find me doing, as I'm sure we've discussed ad nauseum already. I don't yield to what you term nothingness, meaninglessness; I'm not a nihilist, in its original meaning. I live with what I perceive around me. It's quite possible that my perceptions are wrong; in fact, I hope they are. But so far, I've not seen evidence that they are, and without evidence, it's hard to get me on board.

It's not faith, it's just assumption and experience. And both of those tell me that what I see is a fairly bleak place shot through with some rays of sun, like puffy late afternoon clouds pierced by what I affectionately call, "god rays".

it is always interesting to me that this approach or beleif or lack of beleif is paired up with a statemetn like "my world".... because is it really yours?  If you had control of it - hence it being yours - would you truly not change it? 

I dont have a world of my very own, I'm just a man, who has been many kinds of men, but a man is all I am.  I am surrounded by this world I live in.  It presses in on my everyday.  And as much as I can, I press back.  This is my fight - to simply stand against what tries to engulf my mind.  Sometimes I make great strides.  Sometimes i only gain inches or slip backward.  Its worth it to me, the fight.  people either relate to that or they do not.  But I cant wait for a giant lightning bolt from God or a burning bush to give me something to act upon or decide upon. 

And if we are truly created in the image of God (as I beleive we are) and this very same God created all things by literally speaking it into being - I am therefore - a person with creative power by that which I speak into being.  And I dont speak into my life - defeat.

I never do that - for a reason.

we only lose what we give up.

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate your point of view, Steven--indeed, I'm envious of it--but for some of us, things just don't work that way. For some, defeat finds us whether we choose to see it or not. Sometimes the hand typing the story of our lives is not our own, so to speak. Events around us happen, and we are often powerless to stop or change them. Sometimes we can ride the wave, sometimes we can command them, and sometimes--well, sometimes we have to try to let them wash over us, and simply not get swept away.

[Guest Megalicious]

Wow Chris ....... Im not crying out of pity .. Im crying out of understanding if that makes any sense.

[saechalyn]

I'd say I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I don't expect things to work out, I don't expect them not to. I find life most pleasant when I don't have too many expectations.

Stuff happens, and I don't really see much of any reason or purpose behind it. Life just is. I don't believe things happen for a reason. I have seen far too many good people made to suffer and too many assholes get away with murder (in some cases, literally) to believe that everything you do comes back to you. If something good happens, then great, a good thing happened and I enjoy it. If something bad happens, well that sucks, a bad thing happened and I deal with it.

[lippy]

I've more recently in life taken a slightly....neutralistic?.....agnostical?.... viewpoint. I don't see that there is good or evil, there just IS. And it's not about morals, either. It's the simple fact that we can never know where the ripples we create in life will lead or how they will affect someone else, and someone else, and so on. A ripple that is affecting us "negatively" may have come from a "good" deed many years ago. Nor can we know how what is "negative" today may affect us in the future. Take the person who was running late because they tripped on the sidewalk and twisted their ankle seeing a car accident they would've been in up the road. The standard philisophical questions also arise: If you could kill Hitler as a baby, thus preventing all the atrocities during WWII, would you? Would that be a "good" deed, or and "evil" one? How about killing a person holding a gun to a little old ladies head?

One of my favorite stories that express this sort of agnostical viewpoint is about the bird who didn't fly south for the winter. After awhile it started to get cold, so he figured it'd be a good idea after all. Well, he'd waited too long, and his wings iced up and he fell to the ground. A cow happened along, and took a gigantic crap right on the little bird. "Great, I'm gonna die covered in cow shit." thought the bird. Well, the cows crap was warm enough that it thawed the little birds wings. Once the bird realized this, he was so happy that he started to sing. A cat walking by heard the bird singing, and went over, picked him up, wiped off all the shit, and ate him. There are three morals to this story:

1) Someone who shits on you is not necessarily your enemy

2) Someone who picks you up out of a pile of shit is not necessarily your friend

3) If you're happy and in a pile of shit, keep your fool mouth shut!

[Scary Guy]

Another one most fitting

"Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy." - Cynthia Nelms

The one I was thinking about last night

"And why do you cry, my dear, why do you cry? It is all in the whirling circles of time. If millions are born millions must die." —Robinson Jeffers

A few other good ones that are related

"If you see the magic in a fairy tale, you can face the future." —Danielle Steel

"Life is a wretched gray Saturday, but it has to be lived through." —Anthony Burgess

"A happy person is not a person in a certain set of circumstances, but rather a person with a certain set of attitudes." - Hugh Downs

Yeah I need a life

[Steven]

Many of these were the faiths I was referring to, Steven, and was merely trying to make sure the differentiation was understood.

I will urge you here not to confuse faith with assumption.  I make what assumptions I need to, to get by in the world, and as we all do, I am sure I make more assumptions than are strictly necessary.  But I don't believe the world is meaningless.  I don't believe the world has meaning.  It seems to me, from my experience, and my learning, that the world is what one makes of it.  I'm sorry if what I've made of mine is unpalatable to some out there. 

Like others, I also yield, when I find it either necessary or prudent to do so.  I do so fairly often, because it is easier to bend like a willow than snap like an old oak.  I would never call that 'worship', though.  Worship is something you'll never find me doing, as I'm sure we've discussed ad nauseum already.  I don't yield to what you term nothingness, meaninglessness; I'm not a nihilist, in its original meaning.  I live with what I perceive around me.  It's quite possible that my perceptions are wrong; in fact, I hope they are.  But so far, I've not seen evidence that they are, and without evidence, it's hard to get me on board.

It's not faith, it's just assumption and experience.  And both of those tell me that what I see is a fairly bleak place shot through with some rays of sun, like puffy late afternoon clouds pierced by what I affectionately call, "god rays".

I appreciate your point of view, Steven--indeed, I'm envious of it--but for some of us, things just don't work that way.  For some, defeat finds us whether we choose to see it or not.  Sometimes the hand typing the story of our lives is not our own, so to speak.  Events around us happen, and we are often powerless to stop or change them.  Sometimes we can ride the wave, sometimes we can command them, and sometimes--well, sometimes we have to try to let them wash over us, and simply not get swept away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I liked this post Shade.

I suppose that we'd have to find a mutually agreeable term for words like "Faith" and "Worship"....and that is a difficult process.

what I shared with you is likewise - what I've learned via my own experiences and from experiences of those in my inner circle.

I've often been met with opposing points of view when I've thrown out my understandings of tehse two words (faith and worship) because people are uncomfortable with them. Faith aand assumption to me are intertwined. We have our assumptions based on our experiences - and thsoe assumptions maniufest in how we think and act. We "beleive" certain things - or at least beleive in degrees until we can be proven otherwise. This to me shade...is faith. My faith in God is no different than my faith in Laura being able to make good decisions. I've known her for over 20 years. I've seen the changes in her. I assume many things by what I've witnessed in her. Its a very similar approach to my faith in God. I dont have faith - because I'm told that I have to. That makes no sense.

Bending and breaking.....we all do it and yes I'm familiar with the example of the willow.

I watch people - whatch where they bend - watch where they snap. I have always done this. Watch a person spend their money and time and you'll find their value system. And sadly - I've seen this same value system be completely self destructive and yet the people cannot or will not break free. And so they kneel....whether they know it or not.

I have to go to work now so I'll cut it short. But things dont just "work that way" for me on their own Shade. Neither does my career, or frindships, or marriage. A great deal of intentional work goes into it every day. It is not a simple process.

Steven