The Patriot Act

[Msterbeau]

One thing I've learned is that no matter what we do the terrorists are going to find some way around it. Every time we changed our tactics in our convoys, they countered it. They are as adaptible as we are, however doing nothing at all only invites them to attack. Patriot act good or bad? I don't know, but a solution it is not. I don't know if there is one.

That's pretty much human nature though. One group figures out how to stop another from doing something they don't like.... and the other figures out a way around it. Sometimes that "while" may be many years, but there seems no end to people's motivation and ingenuity when it comes to doing something that somebody else doesn't want you to do. A good case in point: Now that Mac OS-X supports Intel processors, people have figured out how to run OS-X on standard Intel powered machines, even though Apple REALLY doesn't want people doing that... They've also already figured out how to get WinXP on Mac hardware, even though Apple didn't make that easy (hardware-wise) either.

On another note, I have to agree with phee on his point about Iraq. All that did was stir up an already irate bee's nest of animosity... How did THAT help make us safer? Oh yes... WMD. No wait... the justification was to take that bad man Saddam out... No.. wait.. Al Qaeda was operating from there with Saddam's OK. yeah... That's the ticket.

[phee]

That's pretty much human nature though.  One group figures out how to stop another from doing something they don't like.... and the other figures out a way around it.  Sometimes that "while" may be many years, but there seems no end to people's motivation and ingenuity when it comes to doing something that somebody else doesn't want you to do.

On another note, I have to agree with phee on his point about Iraq.  All that did was stir up an already irate bee's nest of animosity...  How did THAT help make us safer?  Oh yes... WMD.  No wait...  the justification was to take that bad man Saddam out...  No.. wait..  Al Qaeda  was operating from there with Saddam's OK.  yeah...  That's the ticket.

True and thanks... and the way that this relates to the Patriot act is simply that they threw gasoline on the fire, and then say that they are going to use their squirt pistol to put out the fire... IE: They already went so far and endagered so many peoples lives, how is simply giving the government more powers (arguably) supposed to help?

[odims_sphere]

On another note, I have to agree with phee on his point about Iraq.  All that did was stir up an already irate bee's nest of animosity...  How did THAT help make us safer?  Oh yes... WMD.  No wait...  the justification was to take that bad man Saddam out...  No.. wait..  Al Qaeda  was operating from there with Saddam's OK.  yeah...  That's the ticket.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you both, I know I didn't want to be there, and we didn't ever find any WMD. What I did find was buried MIGs that they "didn't" have, as well as a mass burial on a former iraqi army base where the skeletons we found were vertical suggesting that they were buried standing up, probably still alive. Now neither of these reasons are enough to go to war over but they did prove to me that there was untruths told, as well as unimaginable cruelty. I wonder just how much more is over there that we don't know.

[The_Dark]

I've pointed this out before... On the WMD thingy... We have found many things that Iraq was not sopposed to have... that by any other accounting method would be considered WMDs or at least a breach of the Cease Fire aggreement that Saddam signed. For some reason when people bring this subject up, those things are discounted. A few examples? 3 drone planes with micro sprayers in the wings (used to spread blister agents such as mustard gas), 7 Long range missles (SCUD varients), The MIGs mentioned above, a couple million pounds of enriched Uranium Cake from Nigeria (but Valerie's husband says it doesn't exist)

[phee]

I've pointed this out before... On the WMD thingy... We have found many things that Iraq was not sopposed to have... that by any other accounting method would be considered WMDs or at least a breach of the Cease Fire aggreement that Saddam signed. For some reason when people bring this subject up, those things are discounted. A few examples? 3 drone planes with micro sprayers in the wings (used to spread blister agents such as mustard gas), 7 Long range missles (SCUD varients), The MIGs mentioned above, a couple million pounds of enriched Uranium Cake from Nigeria (but Valerie's husband says it doesn't exist)

Yeah... I think that issue is kinda.... done er something

[The_Dark]

Only because people refuse to see the truth or talk about it. We HAVE found WMDs, noone on the left will admit it.

[phee]

Only because people refuse to see the truth or talk about it. We HAVE found WMDs, noone on the left will admit it.

I haven't heard anybody on the right say it either

[The_Dark]

Really?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=38213

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/25/114037.shtml

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/sarticle.php?id=10101

http://www.ravnwood.com/archives/005243.php

[phee]

now I have

[torn asunder]

after reading the linked articles thedark's posted, this kind of thing really irritates me...

quoted from the article, third paragraph down...

The president was asked why he deemed Iraq - which turned out not to have weapons of mass destruction - as enough of a threat three years ago to launch an invasion, in contrast to nuclear-ambitious Iran today.

umm, check your sources, dood!? they have been found, now report it!! :doh

one of my main arguments for validating our going into iraq was this... (quoted from the same article)

"One difference was that, in Iraq, there was a series of unanimous (U.N. Security Council) resolutions that basically held the Iraqi government to account, which Saddam Hussein ignored," Bush said.

saddam did thumb his nose at un sanctions for years, and since the un is about "as worthless as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest", ( - rowan atkinson) somebody had to put their fucken foot down - who better than the us?? would you trust anyone else overthere without our input? not sure i would...

[Draco1958]

Wish I could find the article. It was an AP or UPI article on Yahoo news about an Arab/American business man who did a lot of travel between Iraq and the U.S. He was asked by SH to be a mediator between himself and the U.S. to prevent the invasion. One of the messages to come out was that SH wanted Bush to know that the WMD's had been dismantled and destroyed. Bush revused to listen to the messenger and invaded Iraq anyway. Does this mean Bush was wrong, to a point yes however it also shows that the WMDs did exist and SH knew they were the reason we were coming and did try to prevent the invasion. However with all the UN sanctions and such against Iraq, we are becoming the UN's police force. As much as some seem to not trust the government, I will not trust the ACLU. They are well known for twisting facts just as much as they say the government does for their own ends. While I am not happy with the Patriot Act, it's still better than nothing. And as far as it allowing so much invasion of privacy, guess no one has heard about the fact that the FBI has been keeping files on alot of people just because they didn't like certain stances people took. And that goes way back to when Hoover ran the FBI. There is no such thing as total privacy from the government, never has and never will. It's just nice to know that we can discuss it without being thrown in jail or tortured into some weird confession over nothing.