Going back to the Church

[Fierce Critter]

Just felt a need to share. =)

Been mulling over the urge to, in some capacity, get back to my Catholic roots.

If you've read my posts in the past, you know I've been walking a primarily pagan path for a while now.

But the more I think, look within, and consider, the more I feel simply agnostic, and not fully one path or the other.

Universalism is tempting to me. But I feel I can be Universal without having to attend an actual Unitarian church.

I'm living in Wyandotte, sometimes known as "Mini Poland". Wyandotte is rife with Catholic churches. I've been having thoughts about stepping into one sometimes. Not necessarily for a mass, but just to be there. I'm very comfortable in a Catholic church.

The Poles of ancient times were non-deitific (?is that a word?) pagans in nature. They took the "invasion" of Christianity in stride - sometimes described as, "going to mass in the morning, then coming home and feeding the fairies." The combined Christianity and their original beliefes into a functional "dual faith".

That's the path I see myself drawing to more and more these days.

I'm not sure, however, I can do this on my terms. I've never held fast to Catholic dogma. I don't accept the bible as absolute truth. I think the Catholic Church is, honestly, very full of shit and tends toward more hypocracy than they'll ever admit to - or atone for.

But it's not all bad. I like the community. I like the ceremony. I like some of the beliefs like the saints, the focus on the Blessed Mother. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't involve myself with that which gives me comfort & faith.

And if that also includes coming home and doing an herb/candle ritual of some kind, then that's what I'm going to do.

I hope I can do so without resistence & pressure.

Just sayin'.

[Guest Megalicious]

Do what you feel FC. =) No one should tell you there is a right way/ wrong way to have a relationship with your god.. I myself am an atheist. But if going to church, worshping, and having faith is something that makes you feel good .. kudos to you Just because you dont worship and show praise in the ways that others do doesn't make you an less devoted =) Good Luck.

[Msterbeau]

I'm UU. (Unitarian Universalist) I think one of the great things about our congregations is that you're free to explore your faith and beliefs without judgement. We also tend to bring in the "good" parts of various faiths rather then discard the baby with the bathwater.

A short story:

Last week I was in Boston with a bunch of UU kids. During service at the church we were staying at, a woman told the story of how she bacme UU. She was an Italian, raised Catholic who abandoned it for a period of time but wanted to belong to a spritual practice again. she went back to the Catholic church but found over a short period of time that her differences in belief no longer made her feel comfortable there. A friend brought her to a UU church, where she slowly became comfortable. It took many years to "sign the book" and become UU because of guilt about leaving behind her former faith.

Personally I think you'll end up disappointed because you'll constantly run up against the confines of the churches dogma where it differs from your own. But... I also think it's a necessary step in finding what's right for you

Good luck!

[Steven]

Just felt a need to share. =)

Been mulling over the urge to, in some capacity, get back to my Catholic roots.

If you've read my posts in the past, you know I've been walking a primarily pagan path for a while now.

But the more I think, look within, and consider, the more I feel simply agnostic, and not fully one path or the other.

Universalism is tempting to me. But I feel I can be Universal without having to attend an actual Unitarian church.

I'm living in Wyandotte, sometimes known as "Mini Poland". Wyandotte is rife with Catholic churches. I've been having thoughts about stepping into one sometimes. Not necessarily for a mass, but just to be there. I'm very comfortable in a Catholic church.

The Poles of ancient times were non-deitific (?is that a word?) pagans in nature. They took the "invasion" of Christianity in stride - sometimes described as, "going to mass in the morning, then coming home and feeding the fairies." The combined Christianity and their original beliefes into a functional "dual faith".

That's the path I see myself drawing to more and more these days.

I'm not sure, however, I can do this on my terms. I've never held fast to Catholic dogma. I don't accept the bible as absolute truth. I think the Catholic Church is, honestly, very full of shit and tends toward more hypocracy than they'll ever admit to - or atone for.

But it's not all bad. I like the community. I like the ceremony. I like some of the beliefs like the saints, the focus on the Blessed Mother. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't involve myself with that which gives me comfort & faith.

And if that also includes coming home and doing an herb/candle ritual of some kind, then that's what I'm going to do.

I hope I can do so without resistence & pressure.

Just sayin'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Critter.

well, you know me, I'm more of a traditionalist when it comes to the church and the bible and a relationship with God....at least on the surface I am. But I am no fan of ritual for ritual's sake and I'm not a fan of religion in general, even if that sounds like a contradiction.

I am glad however, that your feeling a pull back toward the church. Perhaps it is the church itself and some of its symbolism and routine that is attracting you.....or perhaps it is God himself whispering to you....I don't know, and I dont need to know in order to be satisfied, its not my world, and I trust him to do what is right and balanced. I also beleive that God definately pursues his prodigal children, almost at all cost. That I've seen many times over, and have experienced myself.

As a non denominational Christian (and oh how I hate the preface of non denominational because it sounds just as sectarian as any other affiliation) I share many basic faith based tenants of Catholics, and yet I also cannot identify with some of the other rituals. But that's ok. I beleive that Catholics are just as saved as christians, and I've seen great examples and poor examples from both camps.

As far as "on your own terms" goes......I don't know Critter, the older I get the more I realize that in reality very few things are ever done on my own terms, and although I'm feircly indipendent I also recognize what I beleive is the hand of God in literally every facet of my life, including my own prodigal years. I find comfort in that now.

My only advice to you is that if you feel so led, then go. If God is indeed real and is who he says that he is, he'll show himself to you in due time and provide you with a safe place to fall.

may this grant youru soul peace....and rest.

Be Blessed Camille.

Steven

[Draco1958]

FC, I wish you the best on your travels down the path. I was raised Catholic but fell away from that. I do believe there is a guiding force, energy, something like that that helps us through life. Sometimes we feel disconnected and lost. I hope you find the connection to bring you peace and light your way. I am sure that whatever path you find is right, you'll still be the sweet person we know and love as a friend. The important thing is that you find what you need for yourself, are happy and a good person overall. And as a friend, you have my support in your journey. May you find the peace and strength you search for and grow in a positive way.

Bill

[Lilith]

God must be working over time........

We recently went back to church, about a month or so ago. We are attending Bethany Baptist in clinton twp on 15 mile near groesbeck. I was raised protestant Lestat Baptist. I have truly felt the hand of god work on me and my family. It has been an odd experience for me, I have visited groups there that i wish to join and groups there where i wish to run from (shinny happy people). Over all i would say this church has a good mix of open people. I get fullfillment from it over all and i am big girl whom can avoid the parts that are unsettleing to me. We use it as a tool to further our own relationship with god not religion. I think keeping in my head that this is tool for me, i am not a puppet of my church is the best way for us to go about developing our faith.

[JaneDead]

i think it's great that you feel drawn to this and are at least going to explore it.

you never know ... getting "back into it" might make you realize you are either 1. all for it and it strengthens your faith and beliefs 2. or not wanting to be a part of it at all; maybe once and for all. at least you are giving yourself the chance to be open to it, no matter the out come.

good luck to you. i hope you find what you are looking for.

[Steven]

God must be working over time........

We recently went back to church, about a month or so ago. We are attending Bethany Baptist  in clinton twp on 15 mile near groesbeck. I was raised protestant  Lestat Baptist. I have truly felt the hand of god work on me and my family. It has been an odd experience for me, I have visited groups there that i wish to join and groups there where i wish to run from (shinny happy people). Over all i would say this church has a good mix of open people. I get fullfillment from it over all and i am big girl whom can avoid the parts that are unsettleing to me. We use it as a tool to further our own relationship with god not religion.  I think keeping in my head that this is tool for me, i am not a puppet of my church is the best way for us to go about developing our faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

very cool post.

your on your way babe.

and this is why Laura and I are the couple that we are.

[Blackmail]

I think you should do it Fierce. If I was to believe there is a Christian God and I was t study history to reconcile my beliefs, I would come to the conclusion that the Catholics have it right. That's my opinion. I do believe there is more than just the bible (faith of our fathers, for example) and I believe it was the first christian church for a reason. I've met evangelicals who refuse to accept that parts of the bible are allegory and thus have called catholics "not chrisitians". Evangelicals are the ones I have a problem with, but that's another story for another day.

[Fierce Critter]

I'm so glad I opened up this subject.

I've been reading responses, and taking everything to heart. Rather than respond directly to a lot of it, I'd like to offer some background on a couple things. First, why I "left" the church in the first place. Second, why I wanna go back. I think that will help address some of the curiosity & questions I think I'm reading between the lines of some of these responses. And maybe help some understand how some of their read of me in this topic might be a bit off-track, or spot-on.

Once again, this is going to be a major epic typing session for Ms. 100 wpm. I think I'll split this into two posts. For those who care to read, here's part I - "The Leaving." Maybe as soon as today, I'll post part II "The Return" separately. :grin

First off, I stopped going to mass for one very simple reason: Mass bored me. It felt like more of a nuisance than anything else. I hated having to stop whatever I was doing on a Saturday afternoon or get up early on Sunday to go do something for an hour that did nothing much for me. Particularly if exposed to a priest who was tiresome, boring, or hell-bent on knocking into my head & heart every weekend what a terrible, horrible sinner I was and how damned I was.

In my late teens, I worked for a couple lawyers who were Jewish. One of them got into a religious discussion with me one day, and shared with me the fact that in Judaism, emphasis isn't placed on how regularly you attend temple, but on being a good person. That made so much more sense to me - a "good person" scorecard vs. a "masses attended" quota.

Eventually, once it became my own choice, I - like the majority of my siblings - just stopped. But that's the least of the reasons I left the church.

Looking back, even into my very young pre-teen years, I have always been a "spiritual seeker". It wasn't that I was looking for a "better" religion than the one I was being raised in. Just that I was fascinated by all things spiritual, and wanted to know more about religions & spiritualities outside my own.

I had always had a fascination with all things Native American, too. From a very, very young age. It wasn't until later in life that I realized my interested was primarily in their spirituality.

As I grew older and got more knowledge of things religious under my belt, I started to become uncomfortable with Catholic dogma. This came to a head when I learned about the familiar practice of abstaining from meat on Fridays. It's not widely known that Canon law to this day is still that Catholics not eat meat on ALL Fridays. Over time, that law became somewhat lax, and it's mainly emphasized to not eat meat on Fridays & Ash Wednesday during lent.

I started to seriously think about that. So, Man's Law - dogma - proclaims that if you do x, you're a sinner and going to hell. But then, one day, man's law changes, and x becomes o.k. So.... does that mean that all of a sudden, all the people who went to hell for doing x prior to the changing of the law now get a free pass into Heaven?

The hypocrisy started bothering me. In all things in all aspects of life, the biggest thing I have wanted to NOT be is hypocritical.

Dogma started bothering me - badly. BADLY. It went from that to the fact that different "religions" have mandated that different "x's" are sins and will cause a person to be damned to hell.

And that bothered me even more. The thought that one religion has it "right" and the others don't. Meaning there's a whole slew of supposedly devoutly religious people who are damned to hell no matter what their beliefs - because their beliefs are inherently wrong according to a different group of "men".

That just didn't work for me. And being aligned with a single, dogmatic religion really, really started to feel completely wrong.

I kinda went non-religious for a while. Probably for about 8 years. I still called myself Catholic when asked, but I definitely wasn't practicing.

Now, one misconception that some people might have is that this means I walked away from God. That couldn't be further from the truth. I didn't suddenly become atheistic. On the contrary, my relationship with God probably became stronger.

My method of being spiritual was always, even when a "practicing" Catholic, to be one-on-one with God and all things holy. Rather than to recite set prayers or read the Bible, my way of communicating with God, the saints, whom/whatever was just to talk to them directly. "Hey, God? I really like what you've done with the trees this year. They're really full & gorgeous. Thanks." "Hey, St. Francis? I'm really worried about this injured bird I picked up. Can you maybe help me out a little bit with it?" That sort of thing. When I had a bad day at work and was seriously unsure about my reason for living (not suicidal, just directionless), it wasn't a church I ran to, but the cemetary where my grandfather is entombed, and the comfort of the slow moving river that runs through it.

That didn't stop just 'cause I felt like Catholicism didn't work for me anymore. If anything, I just started communicating more. But I did start wondering who I was communicating with as far as "head honcho dude".

That's when my interest in things like Native American spirituality came back to me. And that's when I started taking a deeper interest in earth religions like Wicca, Drudism and the like. To make a long story short, I gave those a try for a while. But none of the set deities meant anything to me. None of the pre-written rituals worked for me. Crystals were just rocks. The planets are just freaking planets. Wicca and the like started to feel familiarly, uncomfortably dogmatic to me.

Things came to a head one day when I was driving down the road in a particularly low mood. I felt the urge to pray - but didn't know to whom I should direct my prayers. Should I pray to the Christian God, or the pagan Goddess, and if I picked the wrong one, would my prayers go entirely unanswered? I really didn't know what was right.

I did get something from the pagan paths. But not until, like Catholicism, I dropped the dogma, returned the books & gee-gaws to the occult store and went within and found spirituality in myself. Then, self-written rituals definitely started working. Peace returned to me. And I was happy. I felt my prayer had been answered - and I had never made a set choice on "who" to direct that prayer to. Once, again, I was feeling like no set religious path was the "right" one.

Then Jon came along, and all that stopped, too. For the first time in my life, I was so busy with day-to-day survival, just about all things spiritual & religious went by the wayside. My herbs & candles went into a box, and have sat there for going on 8 years now.

That, friends, is the story of my leaving all things religious behind. From Catholicism to Wicca to The Religion of Camille, everything got stuck in a box. Not entirely forgotten, but not fully in practice, either.

Coming soon - Chapter II. Thanks to those who have struck with me through yet another epic post. I welcome further input, and by all means, sharing of your own stories.

[Steven]

I trust God, and - I trust you.

I cant really let myself get caught up in all the bullshit in between.

If he's calling you then he'll get his work done.

And things will fall into place in due time as they should.

Despite what people think they understand here.....I think what yoru doing is wise, and healthy, and I admire your public voice.

Steven

[Blackmail]

ok, this is very opinionated and it strictly only represents how I feel but...

If you choose the Catholic Faith or most Christian religions, the path they teach you to walk if a good one. It's a good way to live your life. I don't see any way it can hurt, it can only help.

In my opinion.

[Msterbeau]

ok, this is very opinionated and it strictly only represents how I feel but...

If you choose the Catholic Faith or most Christian religions, the path they teach you to walk if a good one.  It's a good way to live your life.  I don't see any way it can hurt, it can only help. 

In my opinion.

You want to know how they can hurt? Here's how: Tell a small child they are going to hell for whatever sin you care to name. Next describe hell as a horrible, fearsome place. Repeat over and over... Odds are, your going to scare the shit out of the kid. The odds are also good that there will be some sort of psychological pain/damage... however you care to chracterize it. It leaves an impression. I'm pretty sure I could prove this is not healthy. For now you'll have to accept my word as someone this happened to and as someone who's seen it happen to people. I can't even come close to counting all the people who've expressed the same thing to me. This is just one example.

I'm not saying every Catholic parent or priest does this to their children, but it certainly happened to a lot of people of my generation... and was probably worse before that. I know what you're talking about is the idealized "teaching" of dogma and way of life... but the reality is not nearly as rosy. I can totally understand why Steven and Mark, amongst others, choose to practice their faith in a more personal manner... I think in many ways, it's a more rewarding way to do it.

[Steven]

You want to know how they can hurt?  Here's how:  Tell a small child they are going to hell for whatever sin you care to name.  Next describe hell as a horrible, fearsome place.  Repeat over and over...  Odds are, your going to scare the shit out of the kid.  The odds are also good that there will be some sort of psychological pain/damage... however you care to chracterize it.  It leaves an impression.  I'm pretty sure I could prove this is not healthy.  For now you'll have to accept my word as someone this happened to and as someone who's seen it happen to people.  I can't even come close to counting all the people who've expressed the same thing to me.  This is just one example. 

I'm not saying every Catholic parent or priest does this to their children, but it certainly happened to a lot of people of my generation... and was probably worse before that.  I know what you're talking about is the idealized "teaching" of dogma and way of life...  but the reality is not nearly as rosy.  I can totally understand why Steven and Mark, amongst others, choose to practice their faith in a more personal manner...  I think in many ways, it's a more rewarding way to do it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a good point - a very valid position.

My only response to this is that I must agree.

And - for you beleivers llike me - my question is whom do you serve? The man in the mirror or the man hanging between two theives?

These people, especially these children who's souls have been wounded inthe name of Christianity/Catholicism/Whateverism........ this bothers me tremendously and always has. It is a tragedy, it is irresponsible, it is entirely self serving, and it is to be condemned, not condoned. As a child and as an adult, it has happned to me too. I am still ostracized by half of my family for leaving their faith (Jehovah's Witnesses) as a young teen. And my head was soooooooooo fucked up from how I was raised thru that organization. Not to mention the countless beatings I took and the fear that was instilled in me.

And so a handful of biblical models sustain me because mere people cannot:

Mary Magdeline, the whore that Christ loved and protected.

David - a man of God and yet also a murderer and adulterer who lost his kingdom for his crimes yet never lost his relationship with God nor God's forgiveness.

Saul of Tarsus who became Paul - who was extremely educated under Gamliel and who used to hunt and murder Christians prior to his conversion and writing of most of the New Testament.

Peter - a fuck up, a hot head, a stinky fisherman with no education, no title, and no doctorate upon whom Christ decided the church would be built upon foundationally.

Moses - a man who feared and stumbled at public speaking yet had the fortitude to lead millions.

Stephen - the first Christian Martyr who looked upon his death with no fear because his sights were set on God.

And finnaly Christ - who feared no one - especially the religious authority that lusted for his death and undue punishment and who's simple words and phrases were always rooted in power that continues to manifest to this day.

these things to me, are the whispers of heaven, evidence of truth.

they are the stuff that creates change.

they are the unprovable things, that move me still, and cause me to always go one more round, even against myself.

[JaneDead]

You want to know how they can hurt?  Here's how:  Tell a small child they are going to hell for whatever sin you care to name.  Next describe hell as a horrible, fearsome place.  Repeat over and over...  Odds are, your going to scare the shit out of the kid. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a little off topic but, it goes with this statement:

for kindergarten i went to catholic school and my teacher told me i was going to hell with all the little bad children because i talked too much. her name was ms. matok (spelling?) i have forgotten many many teachers along the way, have gone to many schools but i will never forget ms matok, what she looks like, or what she said to me at the age of 5.

[Msterbeau]

This is a good point - a very valid position.

My only response to this is that I must agree.

And  - for you beleivers llike me - my question is whom do you serve?  The man in the mirror or the man hanging between two theives?

These people, especially these children who's souls have been wounded inthe name of Christianity/Catholicism/Whateverism........ this bothers me tremendously and always has.  It is a tragedy, it is irresponsible, it is entirely self serving, and it is to be condemned, not condoned.  As a child and as an adult, it has happned to me too.  I am still ostracized by half of my family for leaving their faith (Jehovah's Witnesses) as a young teen.  And my head was soooooooooo fucked up from how I was raised thru that organization.  Not to mention the countless beatings I took and the fear that was instilled in me. 

And so a handful of biblical models sustain me because mere people cannot:

Mary Magdeline, the whore that Christ loved and protected.

David - a man of God and yet also a murderer and adulterer who lost his kingdom for his crimes yet never lost his relationship with God nor God's forgiveness.

Saul of Tarsus who became Paul - who was extremely educated under Gamliel and who used to hunt and murder Christians prior to his conversion and writing of most of the New Testament.

Peter - a fuck up, a hot head, a stinky fisherman with no education, no title, and no doctorate upon whom Christ decided the church would be built upon foundationally.

Moses - a man who feared and stumbled at public speaking yet had the fortitude to lead millions.

Stephen - the first Christian Martyr who looked upon his death with no fear because his sights were set on God.

And finnaly Christ - who feared no one - especially the religious authority that lusted for his death and undue punishment and who's simple words and phrases were always rooted in power that continues to manifest to this day.

these things to me, are the whispers of heaven, evidence of truth.

they are the stuff that creates change.

they are the unprovable things, that move me still, and cause me to always go one more round, even against myself.

Elegantly worded. Nice.

[Blackmail]

I was talking about Feirce Critter going to the church, she's an adult. I wasn't saying that a mean nun or a priest with molestation tendancies would be great for everyone.

I went to Catholic School too. I never had any bad experiences.

[JaneDead]

I went to Catholic School too.  I never had any bad experiences.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i did, several.

we even got a teacher fired in 7th grade over her behavior towards us, as a whole class. (the teacher was NOT a nun though, just a BAD teacher who happened to be working in a catholic school)

i had a priest yell at me about not going to church, during confession. i think that one was funny. i thought you were supposed to be able to confess anything during confession. :blink

and the time the teacher told me i was going to hell.

there are more but these are my top favorite funny moments.