A question about the religion you belong to..

[Fierce Critter]

...being Pagan isn't a religion in my book. Being a pagan to me means you practice just about every religion except Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Also, modern paganism is a mish-mash of a dead religions. Nordic, Greek, Druidic and half a dozen others smashed together anyway a person wants. I don't see Faith as an All you can Eat Buffet. Pick a religion and stick with it. I don't really care which one. Picking portions of different faith systems that appeal to your world view and smashing them together is well... disrespectful to the people who truly believed in the Gods you're mocking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps this is why many pagans prefer to describe their practice of faith as "Spirituality" rather than "Religion".

Religion tends to be based in dogma. Some pagan paths are rife with dogma - such as hardcore Wicca. It was that that totally turned me off. More words of man dictating what is and isn't holy.

And I agree with Meg - your post is, for the most part, insulting and the kind of elitist viewpoint that turns many people away from Christians once they get up on a soapbox and make their real feelings known.

A "mish-mash" of religions? "Smashed together any way a person wants?" "Pick a religion and stick with it?" How many modern Christian religions themselves came from a group in history splintering off from one religion to combine with another or write their own ways of doing things because what came before didn't work for them eventually?

Mocking Gods? How about accepting the possibilities of many ways of thinking? Encompassing & embracing rather than turning away and ostracizing?

Sorry, but I've met a lot more pagans who embody the Golden Rule than Christians. I may not feel I walk a pagan path - that I may never really have - but I still respect their way of worship as just as viable & authentic as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

And to stop derailing this into a "what is/isn't valid about paganism" theme, and to return to Marc's original post...

I refer back to my own stance that it's the man-written parts of religions that I find questionable. The "one way or the highway" dictates of humans on earth. I don't know of a single religion that embodies all that my soul tells me is right or wrong. I will probably never find things that totally black and white.

So though UU is probably closer to my way of thinking than Catholicism, it's not convenient to me right now to explore it, and Catholicism is something I know and which I feel I can go to for that which I might feel is lacking in my spiritual life.

I don't believe it's anyone's right or ability to tell me what is and isn't the right way to worship & pray. If I go within and look for the God within me, then I can have faith that where he/she/it/whatever is taking me is the right way to go.

And I'll add that if I'm a smart enough person to know what does and does not hurt another person (that Golden Rule again), then I am not being led by "demons" or evil, but by good.

And that is good enough for me.

[Steven]

Yes exactly, coined by christian's. That would be like if I was pagan .. and our defenition for Christian was  a bag of flaming dog poo. It would probably come up in the dictionary under slang .. and say something like:

Christian -slang-bag of flamming dog poo.

That doesnt make by anymeans a right deffintion at least to the people that believe in it, that follow that belief system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you know babe I'm pretty sure there is legislation being written to make this very definition of Christianity into law......

[Steven]

Perhaps this is why many pagans prefer to describe their practice of faith as "Spirituality" rather than "Religion".

Religion tends to be based in dogma. Some pagan paths are rife with dogma - such as hardcore Wicca. It was that that totally turned me off. More words of man dictating what is and isn't holy.

And I agree with Meg - your post is, for the most part, insulting and the kind of elitist viewpoint that turns many people away from Christians once they get up on a soapbox and make their real feelings known.

A "mish-mash" of religions? "Smashed together any way a person wants?" "Pick a religion and stick with it?" How many modern Christian religions themselves came from a group in history splintering off from one religion to combine with another or write their own ways of doing things because what came before didn't work for them eventually?

Mocking Gods? How about accepting the possibilities of many ways of thinking? Encompassing & embracing rather than turning away and ostracizing?

Sorry, but I've met a lot more pagans who embody the Golden Rule than Christians. I may not feel I walk a pagan path - that I may never really have - but I still respect their way of worship as just as viable & authentic as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

And to stop derailing this into a "what is/isn't valid about paganism" theme, and to return to Marc's original post...

I refer back to my own stance that it's the man-written parts of religions that I find questionable. The "one way or the highway" dictates of humans on earth. I don't know of a single religion that embodies all that my soul tells me is right or wrong. I will probably never find things that totally black and white.

So though UU is probably closer to my way of thinking than Catholicism, it's not convenient to me right now to explore it, and Catholicism is something I know and which I feel I can go to for that which I might feel is lacking in my spiritual life.

I don't believe it's anyone's right or ability to tell me what is and isn't the right way to worship & pray. If I go within and look for the God within me, then I can have faith that where he/she/it/whatever is taking me is the right way to go.

And I'll add that if I'm a smart enough person to know what does and does not hurt another person (that Golden Rule again), then I am not being led by "demons" or evil, but by good.

And that is good enough for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

although I'm not as open minded as she is about spirituality, I salute this girl and her spirit and her thoughts and intellect.

Critter, you have been missed.

Steven

[Guest Megalicious]

you know babe I'm pretty sure there is legislation being written to make this very definition of Christianity into law......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your silly Steven, Im glad to see that you knew I was just giving an example and didnt mean it seriously ..

Like I said to each his own my friend

[Fierce Critter]

although I'm not as open minded as she is about spirituality, I salute this girl and her spirit and her thoughts and intellect.

Critter, you have been missed. 

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Comments like this mean a lot to me.

Humbly, thanks. :blushing

[Fierce Critter]

By the way, I may be more "open minded" about spirituality.

But I have a tremendous respect & admiration for people like Steven, who have a particular faith & belief, and foster it throughout their every waking moment.

Fundamentalists of any religion may scare me, even irritate me when they get all high-horse on me. But I still have a respect for the depths of their belief.

[livininxtcgoth]

i made up my own faith/religion/spirituality

i belong to The Holy Order of Me

i dont disagree much with my own religion this way. i've established my own beliefs and values outside of any other organized religion, and it suits me just fine

[Msterbeau]

i made up my own faith/religion/spirituality

i belong to The Holy Order of Me

i dont disagree much with my own religion this way.  i've established my own beliefs and values outside of any other organized religion, and it suits me just fine

Which is why I'm a UU. I find what's right for me, I'm free to explore and change as I see fit, and I get to share time and space with a bunch of like-minded people. Some people don't think that's relgion. I don't really either, but it is a spiritual practice andit works quite well for me.

[JaneDead]

although I'm not as open minded as she is about spirituality, I salute this girl and her spirit and her thoughts and intellect.

Critter, you have been missed. 

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hear hear

although *i* AM as open minded as she is about spirituality/religion and it's one thing i like when i read her stuff

[JaneDead]

By the way, I may be more "open minded" about spirituality.

But I have a tremendous respect & admiration for people like Steven, who have a particular faith & belief, and foster it throughout their every waking moment.

Fundamentalists of any religion may scare me, even irritate me when they get all high-horse on me. But I still have a respect for the depths of their belief.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree with this as well. i am open and i might not agree with someone/something but i respect it/them and admire it/them always.

[The_Dark]

Why am I not surprised to be chastied for daring to say something negative about being "pagan"? Even though people, even in this thread, make snide, rude and hurtful comments about Christianity all the damn time. They are not chastied nor subject to one of FC's long winded rebutales. FC, while telling me how wrong I was for talking bad about someone else's religion was bashing mine.. but thats ok. It's only Christianity.

Why is a Christian's Faith and beleifs any less valid?

As for the word Pagan. It's a Christian word that means Non-Christian. Thats it. Not a damn thing negative in that word unless you put it there. You will note I did not use it in a negative way. I only pointed out what it meant.

The Mish-Mash thing. Show me it's not true. How many pagans have you met that worship "The Goddess", Hecate, Wodin, Aphrodite and half a dozen other Gods pulled from variuos dead religions? In most cases the most any of these dietys have in common is that they are non-Christian. If thats what works for you, thats your business. Don't expect me to validate it... I wont. FC says that Christians have and do do this also. Really? Name a sect of Christianity that worships or worshiped anything other than God. They have and do have different ways to worship, but they still worship the one God.

Mocking. Yes, I think taking a peoples beleifs system apart and picking out the parts that fit your world view and then saying the rest is hogwash is insulting and rude. There were Norse people that worshiped the whole Norse pantheon. There were Greeks that beleived in the whole of the Greek pantheon.

BTW. I made one post about Paganism and I am being told I am derailing the conversation. How many where made about Christianity and it's proiblems?

[phee]

I have never claimed to be a Pagan... That is sort of a catch all kind of like saying "everything else but Christian" it doesn't seem like a very usefull term...

Back to the topic (I think)... I am an Agnostic, I have not seen enough, or felt enough in any paticular direction to convince me one way or another about my spirituality/religion... I think a lot of different sources have a lot of helpful advice and things to offer, but any one has not convinced me that it is "right" and the others are "wrong"...

[Msterbeau]

Mark, Camille... I'd appreciate if you took your "discussion" offline please.

To all the rest, please talk about YOUR personal spiritual practice/religion only. If you must include references to other religions, please keep it respectful.

[Guest Megalicious]

  If you must include references to other religions, please keep it respectful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe it was best when livinxtcgoth said ...

i belong to The Holy Order of Me

I dont really have a faith I belong to Marc, so I can't say I agree or disagree with anything. :grin

[phee]

(From the other thread)

believe me I have LOTS of opinions, ideas, and truths that I have found (sometimes in the past I have posted them as some of the older members may know), but to my knowledge, very few people who are not close friends of mine, actually are that curious about what I believe... And I have grown so accustomed to others telling me not only what the believe, but what I should believe as well (I will admit that only one religions followers have ever actually done this, but I have heard that others can be just as bad)... And so I read, but I spare people my opinions usually, because, I am sure they don't need another person telling them what to think and what there own personal interpretation of "truth" is...

[The_Dark]

Meg.. dont get Faith and Religion mixed up. Really, two completly different things.

I may have a low opinion on someone's Religion, but I never judge thier Faith.

Faith is an inner thing.. how we feel about the spiritual side of life. Religion is how we express that.

Some people need shit loads of orginized, set rituals... Catholics are a good example of that. Other people have no need for ritual at all... not sure of a good example of that.

We each need to find the religion/mode of expression that best fits our needs and everyone is free to do just that. I'm also free to point and laugh at that expression.

[Guest Megalicious]

Meg.. dont get Faith and Religion mixed up. Really, two completly different things.

I may have a low opinion on someone's Religion, but I never judge thier Faith.

Faith is an inner thing.. how we feel about the spiritual side of life. Religion is how we express that.

Some people need shit loads of orginized, set rituals... Catholics are a good example of that. Other people have no need for ritual at all... not sure of a good example of that.

We each need to find the religion/mode of expression that best fits our needs and everyone is free to do just that. I'm also free to point and laugh at that expression.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was trying to keep on topic .. not get into another debate with you. Believe what you believe Mark, but keep in mind that you dont like when ppl shit all over and or degrade your religion, So don't do it to other ppls. It's one thing to productivly express your view that you may not agree with said particular religion, it another thing to as you put it "point and laugh" that just belittlement of yes "ones faith" and I believe it to be wrong . THere is freedom of speech, but wouldn't you rather use it in a positive and productive way, in a pose to cutting someone else faith because you don't see it fit.

I could give a rats ass either way, I dont have "faith" and or a "religion" to follow, the focus here in not on christian or pagan or what ever else someone may be. The focus is the the negative setting you created about someone else's beliefs. I happen to think that is wrong, you have every right to disagree. So lets just say we agree to disagree and leave it at that .. and get back to the topic at hand (which I've tried to to do twice now :laughing )

[Steven]

Meg.. dont get Faith and Religion mixed up. Really, two completly different things.

I may have a low opinion on someone's Religion, but I never judge thier Faith.

Faith is an inner thing.. how we feel about the spiritual side of life. Religion is how we express that.

Some people need shit loads of orginized, set rituals... Catholics are a good example of that. Other people have no need for ritual at all... not sure of a good example of that.

We each need to find the religion/mode of expression that best fits our needs and everyone is free to do just that. I'm also free to point and laugh at that expression.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like you dude, and I think that your very intelligent. And your right - often its just not a fair fight....

But be careful with your laughter - tremendous power it has to cause harm - and the one you harm could have been the one that will one day lead others out of darkness if he or she only had the chance to do so......

[phee]

I like you dude, and I think that your very intelligent.  And your right - often its just not a fair fight....

But be careful with your laughter - tremendous power it has to cause harm - and the one you harm could have been the one that will one day lead others out of darkness if he or she only had the chance to do so......

Steven Rawks

[The_Dark]

Meg...

I'm not sure of two things.

1. Part of me leans toward a pagan life style... it fits many of my views. I practice a good many tenants from Wicca and I somehow doubt you will find anyone on the board more in tune with nature than me. I have issue with the "magic" part of paganism and the disrespect for the peoples of our collective past. I also don't see pagansism as a religion, though many disagee.

How is that not on topic for the thread? I was talking about my beleifs and what problems I have with them.

2. I never said anything bad about paganism to begin with. I said I don't think it's a religion in and of itself. Wicca is. Satanism is. Along with a couple hundred other New Age beliefs that collectivly fall under the definition of Paganism. What did I say that was so offensive?

And finally... as I pointed out before... My post was really just to see if it saying anything about Paganism that didn't put it high on the pillar of perfection would be tolerated in a conversation where Christianity was being bashed. as usual

[phee]

Meg...

I'm not sure of two things.

1. Part of me leans toward a pagan life style... it fits many of my views. I practice a good many tenants from Wicca and I somehow doubt you will find anyone on the board more in tune with nature than me. I have issue with the "magic" part of paganism and the disrespect for the peoples of our collective past. I also don't see pagansism as a religion, though many disagee.

    How is that not on topic for the thread? I was talking about my beleifs and what problems I have with them.

2. I never said anything bad about paganism to begin with. I said I don't think it's a religion in and of itself. Wicca is. Satanism is. Along with a couple hundred other New Age beliefs that collectivly fall under the definition of Paganism. What did I say that was so offensive?

And finally... as I pointed out before... My post was really just to see if it saying anything about Paganism that didn't put it high on the pillar of perfection would be tolerated in a conversation where Christianity was being bashed. as usual

I didn't see any Christ bashing... but then again I have been skimming

[Guest Megalicious]

I'm not a Pagan because.. well... being Pagan isn't a religion in my book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    How is that not on topic for the thread? I was talking about my beleifs and what problems I have with them.

Straight out saying "I'm not pagan" leads me to believe that is not your beleif.

2. I never said anything bad about paganism to begin with. What did I say that was so offensive?

Comparing ones beleifs "an all you can eat buffet" is disrespectful, it wasn't your view I disagree with, its the manner in which you tried to get it across.

And finally... as I pointed out before... My post was really just to see if it saying anything about Paganism that didn't put it high on the pillar of perfection would be tolerated in a conversation where Christianity was being bashed. as usual

I sorry but this sounds so childish. That like saying "but they were doing it first mommy".

Like I said I don't really care about christian or pagans .. or anything else. But to intentional belittle something that some find comfort in, some believe to be true, some love is just .. well crappy.

And that is all, live and let live, with out *pointing and laughing* as you put it.

BACK TO THE TOPIC!!!!! DAMNIT! If you would like to debate this in a private manner by all means Mark PM me, but please .. Marc has already made it clear that he does not apreciate the thread jacking, so lets respect that.

[Msterbeau]

My post was really just to see if it saying anything about Paganism that didn't put it high on the pillar of perfection would be tolerated in a conversation where Christianity was being bashed. as usual

The only "bashing" that really happened was TA posting the DR. Laura thing.. Then Blackmail, Steven et al chastised him for it... he retracted his statements and apologized... at which point you brought up the stuff about paganism... which got you Critter's irritated response which did compare SOME Christians with non-Christians unfavorably... but pretty much as a rebuttal to your comments, not doing it for the sake of doing it. I'd say overall there was very little in this thread of the direct bashing sort... The WAS an awful lot of writing done in defense due to TA's initial post... You're blowing it outta proportion.

As for laughing at other people's religions... You're correct, you have the right to do so, but I'd suggest you're a hypocrit if you expect to be able to do that, yet bitch about your own faith/religion being slandered.

[Guest Megalicious]

DAMNIT! ok .. I tried .. I really tried to get back on topic .... lol ... I wash my hands lol :laughing

[phee]

Meg... um... what was the topic again? um... I am very lost at this point...