Fathers rights.

[Guest Megalicious]

So, my brother has been paying CS for his 8 year old son since he was born. His son lives in ME now with his mother, and well now that Sky is old enough, and my brother wants him to come spend some time IN CA with just Sky, Sara is refusing to let Sky see him.

I admit .. my brother has been an awful father, but now that he is wanting to make up for this .. that he wants to spend time with just him and his son ... How can she refuse him? He has always paid his childsupport. Can she legaly do this?

There was never a joint custody agreement, but there was never an agreement at all.

He is asking for advice from me and I dont know what to say, my brother has always been there for me .. I must say I am disapointed because our father was such an ass.

But he sends cards/gifts on Bdays and hoildays, he pays his child support, and now that he wants that loving bond and relationship with his son ... I just dont see how Sara can denie him.

I dont know .. adivice anyone?

[The_Dark]

First off lets clear something up. Child Support and Visitation have nothing to do with each other. At all. Visitation is the Child's right, not the absent parents. Visitation is in no way tied to support payments.

Your brother needs to contact the Friend of the Court in the district that he is paying support through now. They will have a sepperate person that handles Visitation and Custody. He needs to file for a Visitation order. Without that, he hasn't a leg to stand on.

[Guest Megalicious]

. He needs to file for a Visitation order. Without that, he hasn't a leg to stand on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Mark =)

[The_Dark]

Anytime. I've been dealing with this kinda crap since 92.

[JaneDead]

So, my brother has been paying CS for his 8 year old son since he was born.  His son lives in ME now with his mother, and well now that Sky is old enough, and my brother wants him to come spend some time IN CA with just Sky, Sara is refusing to let Sky see him.

I admit .. my brother has been an awful father, but now that he is wanting to make up for this .. that he wants to spend time with just him and his son ... How can she refuse him? He has always paid his childsupport. Can she legaly do this?

There was never a joint custody agreement, but there was never an agreement at all.

He is asking for advice from me and I dont know what to say, my brother has always been there for me ..  I must say I am disapointed because our father was such an ass.

But he sends cards/gifts on Bdays and hoildays, he pays his child support, and now that he wants that loving bond and relationship with his son ... I just dont see how Sara can denie him. 

I dont know .. adivice anyone?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

in my opinion; i'd feel the same was as the mom does.

paying child support is nothing like being active in a child's life. plus (and this is how *I* would feel) how is she to know that he might not have the child for say a week or something... and then just sort of drop out of his life? personally, i would want to protect my son from that hurt no matter what.

now i am not saying your brother should not be allowed to see his son. i don't mean that at all. but i don't see how he can expect after all this time that she will just basically hand him over, living in another state no less, and say great i am so happy you will now be a father to him.

i think he should make more of an effort to go to THEM first. go to where his son lives and visit him there. go for a weekend, a week. do it as often as he can. over time she may be more willing to let him then fly to his father for a week, a school vacation, or even a month in the summer.

as it seems now, the boy probably doesn't even really know his father right? he might not even want to go to another state away from his mom to be with a dad he doesn't even know.

and like mark said he should definately file for visitation.

[Guest Megalicious]

now i am not saying your brother should not be allowed to see his son. i don't mean that at all. but i don't see how he can expect after all this time that she will just basically hand him over, living in another state no less, and say great i am so happy you will now be a father to him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She should understand completly, I had Sky from about 6 months up untill he was about 3 and a half years old, because Sara was to fucked up she didnt even want to be in his life ... then she calls me out of the blue .. telling me she is clean, that she wants a relationship with her son. Did I tell her no because I felt she was a horrible mother in the past? Did I hold anything against her? Of course not, shes his mother and I understood that he needs his real mother .. just like she should understand that he needs his real father.

I didnt try to fight her, I did shove in her face that she didnt want him, I knew the right thing to do was let my little baby go because it was best for SKY,

She wasnt paying any kind of support while Sky was with us, if anything she was still using her Child support to feed her drug addiction...

I mean dont get me wrong, Im glad she got clean, Im glad she wanted Sky back, Im glad she got her life togther, but hell yes I expect her to be more then understanding.

[JaneDead]

I mean dont get me wrong, Im glad she got clean, Im glad she wanted Sky back, Im glad she got her life togther, but hell yes I expect her to be more then understanding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry i didn't know the whole story.

i just went on what you typed out here first so i sort of put *myself* in that situation, as the person *I* am. by doing that i was just assuming she was a good mother all along and that your brother did nothing at all and all of the sudden wanted to be 100 percent in his life out of nowhere. i am sorry i mistook the situation for what it really is/was.

[Kiss The Midget]

Visitation is (not) the Child's right....untill the child is old enough to say. (about 13)

I have gone through this myself with my kid and with my x's kids.

Child support doesn't assure you of visitation , that is right , but FOC or fiend of the court (yea i said fiend) dosen't help a lot with visitation. they like to deal with both at the same time or just child suport.

I decided myself to just take my x through reg. court and sue for visitation.

most people don't know that you can do that , but you can , i did.

* Is he on the birth cert.? or does the child have his last name? was him and his x married?

all of these factors will take place, atleast they did with me here in MI.

[The_Dark]

Kiss the midget:

Visitation IS the Child's Right as defined by law. It's not the Parent getting to spend time with thier child, it's the child getting to spend time with the parent.

Thats the main reason that support payments are not tied to visitation.

Here in Michigan, each county has a specialist in thier FOC office that deals with vistitation and custody. Most people dont realize this because they are used to talking with thier Support Case worker. They never think to ask if there is someone else there that handles visitation. Another problem is the Case workers, they never bother to tell people anything they dont directly ask about. So, if you dont ask if there is a Visitation and Custody specialist, they dont tell you.

And ofcourse you can sue for custody/visitation. The Friend of the Court isn't actually a Court. All proceadings are handled by the Circuit Court Family Division.

I not only have experiance with this from my divorce in 92, I have done all the paperwork and legal fillings for my Fathers Divorce and the divorces of 3 of my Friends. I also volenteer time with a Father Rights group and one of my best friends is a lawyer who specilizes in Fathers Rights.

[The_Dark]

Dads of Michigan

[BrassFusion]

Does anyone but me think that visitation and child support should be inextricably linked? In such a way that the more CS you're willing and able to pay, the more time you should be guaranteed to have access to your child?

I don't have any kids myself, and I hopefully won't until I'm in a permanent marriage (I'm traditional i guess), but I have had girlfriends who think they're knocked up, and then, because their biological clock is drowning out their common sense, plot as to how they can soak the father for as much money as possible even if the poor guy in question thought she was on the pill and wants her to get an abortion.

I'm so glad I'm a woman.

[Onyx]

No, I do not believe child support and visitations should be linked.

The FOC system is screwed up beyond belief.

I really think the best situation is joint custody with NO child support. Both parents should contribute equally and the bills for the care of the children should be split according to income. Unless one of the parents are incompetent or abusive, the children should spend equal time with either parent whenever possible.

Unfortunately this has not worked out for me because my children's father is a cheapskate and doesn't seem to comprehend that children need medical and dental care and clothing and food. I used to fight for the money but it's just too much hassle to deal with the FOC here. It's a full time job trying to go through them to get anything reimbursed.

I just buy whatever they need myself.

[Guest Megalicious]

Does anyone but me think that visitation and child support should be inextricably linked? In such a way that the more CS you're willing and able to pay, the more time you should be guaranteed to have access to your child?

I'm so glad I'm a woman.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats a good question, I suppose it depends on the father and or mother that is paying the support and if they are going to add anything productive to the childs life.

Which is why now when I look back on Marks post about how it the childs right and not the parents .. that really makes sense. However there are crazy mothers and fathers that use their children as bargining chips to get what they want from the other. Not to mention emotional munipulation, and when your a child you dont question your mother or fathers word, it is truth, if daddy say mommy is bad .. it must be true right? Its so very sad.

Having had a wake up call from this thread I have made arangements to have joint legal/and phsyical custody papers drawn up for our son, not only for my sake but for our son's , the father of my child is good man and I know he will always have something wonderful and productive to add to our sons life, so I see no reason not to have joint custody just in case shit happens.

Im glad Iam a woman too .....

[Onyx]

Having had a wake up call from this thread I have made arangements to have joint legal/and phsyical custody papers drawn up for our son, not only for my sake but for our son's , the father of my child is good man and I know he will always have something wonderful and productive to add to our sons life, so I see no reason not to have joint custody just in case shit happens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From what I understand, if you are not married that is a smart thing to have on file anyway in case the child is needing medical care. That way there is no legal question that either of you are able to authorize what is needed for the child.

[Guest Megalicious]

From what I understand, if you are not married that is a smart thing to have on file anyway in case the child is needing medical care.  That way there is no legal question that either of you are able to authorize what is needed for the child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even more reason to =)

[Kiss The Midget]

Kiss the midget:

Visitation IS the Child's Right as defined by law. It's not the Parent getting to spend time with thier child, it's the child getting to spend time with the parent.

Thats the main reason that support payments are not tied to visitation.

Here in Michigan, each county has a specialist in thier FOC office that deals with vistitation and custody. Most people dont realize this because they are used to talking with thier Support Case worker. They never think to ask if there is someone else there that handles visitation. Another problem is the Case workers, they never bother to tell people anything they dont directly ask about. So, if you dont ask if there is a Visitation and Custody specialist, they dont tell you.

And ofcourse you can sue for custody/visitation. The Friend of the Court isn't actually a Court. All proceadings are handled by the Circuit Court Family Division.

I not only have experiance with this from my divorce in 92, I have done all the paperwork and legal fillings for my Fathers Divorce and the divorces of 3 of my Friends. I also volenteer time with a Father Rights group and one of my best friends is a lawyer who specilizes in Fathers Rights.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

how is a 2 year old child going to say if they want to see someone or not?(i know that her brothers child is older than that.)

but i do see your point it is a right that a father and child share.

and DARK if you work in this feild you should know this.

MEG every county is different so his best bet would be to seek a good lawyer for this matter in his county like FRED they deal with other stuff besides divorce.

[JaneDead]

how is a 2 year old child going to say if they want to see someone or not?(i know that her brothers child is older than that.)

but i do see your point it is a right that a father and child share.

and DARK if you work in this feild you should know this.

MEG every county is different so his best bet would be to seek a good lawyer for this matter in his county like FRED they deal with other stuff besides divorce.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh believe me, a 2 year old child will say if they want to see someone or not.

this is more personal than i care to get but; when my son was 2 he begged me to see his dad. his "dad" however did not want to see him. he then started to say that his dad hated us and that is why he didn't want to see us. he said his dad didn't love us. he wondered what we did so that his dad didn't want to see us. so not only did my 2 year old son want to see his dad, he thought it was his fault that his dad didn't come around. it took me a lot of time and heartache to show my son that it was not us, it was the donor than had issues.

my husband now is my son's dad, the only dad he ever knew. and when he goes away for work my 2 and 4 year old cry that they want to see dad. and i know if god forbid we ever got divorced they would ask to see him daily. they love and miss their dad when he is only gone for a day.

[Homicidalheathen]

Nope. The father of my kids wanted kids.......talked me into getting pregnant. So I did, had them.....and he disappeared.

Should he not have to pay child support? Even though he chooses not to see them? No! But he got away with it anyway.

I don't want or need his money, I just wanted them to know their dad.

On the other hand my husbands kid never got a dime from his mother even though she gave us a bunch of crap over the years.....NOT fair. We paid for everything. We even paid for his plane ticket a few times so he could go all the way to AZ to see her.

I just don't understand people coming inbetween parents and kids unless there was abuse or neglect. Money should not be the reason.

No, I do not believe child support and visitations should be linked.

The FOC system is screwed up beyond belief. 

I really think the best situation is joint custody with NO child support.  Both parents should contribute equally and the bills for the care of the children should be split according to income.  Unless one of the parents are incompetent or abusive, the children should spend equal time with either parent whenever possible.

Unfortunately this has not worked out for me because my children's father is a cheapskate and doesn't seem to comprehend that children need medical and dental care and clothing and food.  I used to fight for the money but it's just too much hassle to deal with the FOC here.  It's a full time job trying to go through them to get anything reimbursed.

I just buy whatever they need myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Kiss The Midget]

oh believe me, a 2 year old child will say if they want to see someone or not.

this is more personal than i care to get but; when my son was 2 he begged me to see his dad. his "dad" however did not want to see him. he then started to say that his dad hated us and that is why he didn't want to see us. he said his dad didn't love us. he wondered what we did so that his dad didn't want to see us. so not only did my 2 year old son want to see his dad, he thought it was his fault that his dad didn't come around. it took me a lot of time and heartache to show my son that it was not us, it was the donor than had issues.

my husband now is my son's dad, the only dad he ever knew. and when he goes away for work my 2 and 4 year old cry that they want to see dad. and i know if god forbid we ever got divorced they would ask to see him daily. they love and miss their dad when he is only gone for a day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i know what you are saying, Dads like that give all men a bad name.

but my point was that a child until they hit a certain cant have say , or your child would have seen Dad , the kid cant fight in court for visitation.

a child has the right to see there parents , but the parents can refuse to see there child (F ' ED in my book). On the other hand the father has a right to see there child and the child cant say no nore can the other parent refuse until the child is 12 or 13 (i think thats the age). I have gone through this and i know....

The story (dont have to read but this is how i went through it)..

4 years ago i lived with a women whos x husband wanted full cust. of there 2 kids , so he tried for many years to get that. The kids wanted that to. But it wasnt until they turned 12/13 did any judge in oakland or macomb county would hear from them. Than after hearing from them his words were to my x " thats what they want and they are now old enough to make that decesion". Before it is fathers rights after they hit the age of 12/13 they could be heard from a judge , unless there is abuse or any other reason.