What drew you to the goth subculture?

[Guest Game of Chance]

Yeah, that's what I get out of him. Kind of a goth monk or something. I'm not worried about him, I can just take one look at him and know that i can beat his ass, if it comes down to that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He does seem like a chump.

[Paper Hearts]

I wonder if he goes to City Club.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I've heard that he hangs out at the Pai Gow poker table at the MGM Grand.

[Paper Hearts]

I've heard that he hangs out at the Pai Gow poker table at the MGM Grand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This could mean trouble. Guy looks like he's built like a brick shithouse and he seems to be a karate master. I was reading he also likes the Cure. Steve, i hate to say it, but it looks like you have an arch nemisis on your hands.

[torn asunder]

is there a particular reason you're threadjacking a thread you yourself started? people were trying to actually discuss the topic. btw, threadjacking is against dgn rules, so please cut it out...

thanks...

[JaneDead]

what drew me in? the music. and to a degree the people of the "goth scene". how the people look (which i over all like) not how the people act (which i over all don't like).

[paradox]

the crow

silly but true.

[Paper Hearts]

I'll say it again, the Panama Canal.

[Gothmama25]

Ive always liked the darkside.

[Hellion]

:devil The originality,and music,had alot to do with it.

[Gothmama25]

goth music and clubs are the best ever.

[Homicidalheathen]

I didn't even realize I was goth until someone pointed it out to me. I guess its a label I ascribe to now without really meaning to......yes I am pagan. I like black. I listen to allot of goth/industrial/techno......and I like pain.

But I also listen to classical....like to cuddle and sometimes I even wear......OH MY GOD!!! Yes! Pink velour sweats! Ah! The truth is out! I am not totally 100% goth! What am I to do????

[kellygrrrrrl]

I was drawn in by the outwarldy appearance of it all.

The fashions, the art, the music.

The deep understanding and embrace of sadness, lonliness...which I seem to have always had internally. A spiritual sense of self. But not comformist in the same sense.

Free thinking without feeling wrong.

Amongst many other reasonings.

[Blackmail]

I just like electro music like Covenant and Angels & Agony and goth clubs and goth internet radio stations are the only places to hear this music so that is why I am here. I have no interest in actual 'goth' culture and I got bored with real goth music (Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, etc).

As pointed out before, the alleged anti-Thatcher start of punk is only half true, Joy Division (whose 1976 EP 'An Ideal for Living' was pure punk) had extreme right wing political views and they are one of the most influential 'goth' bands of all time. There were a number of post-punk bands that supported Great Britain in the Falkland Wars as well, such as Johnny Marr.

[Paper Hearts]

I think there was a difference between the very beginings of the music...when people were simply making music that felt right to them...like in 1974 or 75...and when later, people started conciously making 'punk' music because it was the latest thing. I don't think that hooliganism should be confused with conservatism. In the US, it's true, these were not people who liked hippies or cared to protest the Vietnam war...but it's more because they felt disaffected rather than feeling in support of the war. The Hooliganism phenomena was pretty much the same in the UK. This was generation X, the "Blank Generation"...they didn't really subscribe to anything.

That said, Johnny Ramone is a lifelong republican, and the song "The KKK Took My Baby Away" was written about his political views. He and Joey never talked. They hated eachother.

And Johnny Marr wouldn't call himself a Tory. His views might not match every progressive stance...but Johnny listened to a lot of T Rex and Birthday Party in the 70s, so maybe that's valid. But J Marr did a lot of work w/ Billy Bragg...which has to mean something.

You could deffinately say that the Sex Pistols and the Damned were anti Thatcherism...and they were the first 2 bands to either record or play out, who are recognized as punk bands, today, from the UK. Sid Vicious later played a couple shows w/ Siouxsie & the Banshees, the Damned turned to some pretty god-awfull sounding goth music in their later days. Johnny Lydon, after the pistols, again, PIL is considered an early goth band...although they did switch format a bit in the 80s.

But I don't say it's so much about being anti-Thatcherite as it was simply Hooliganism EFFECTED by Thatcherism.

I'd be amused to find out Ian Curtis even voted.

[Blackmail]

I think there was a difference between the very beginings of the music...when people were simply making music that felt right to them...like in 1974 or 75...and when later, people started conciously making 'punk' music because it was the latest thing. I don't think that hooliganism should be confused with conservatism. In the US, it's true, these were not people who liked hippies or cared to protest the Vietnam war...but it's more because they felt disaffected rather than feeling in support of the war. The Hooliganism phenomena was pretty much the same in the UK. This was generation X, the "Blank Generation"...they didn't really subscribe to anything.

That said, Johnny Ramone is a lifelong republican, and the song "The KKK Took My Baby Away" was written about his political views. He and Joey never talked. They hated eachother.

And Johnny Marr wouldn't call himself a Tory. His views might not match every progressive stance...but Johnny listened to a lot of T Rex and Birthday Party in the 70s, so maybe that's valid.

You could deffinately say that the Sex Pistols and the Damned were anti Thatcherism...and they were the first 2 bands to either record or play out, who are recognized as punk bands, today, from the UK. Sid Vicious later played a couple shows w/ Siouxsie & the Banshees, the Damned turned to some pretty god-awfull sounding goth music in their later days. Johnny Lydon, after the pistols, again, PIL is considered an early goth band...although they did switch format a bit in the 80s.

I'd be amused to find out Ian Curtis even voted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just saying that alot of people - alot of influential people - in the goth and punk movements were either not interested in politics at all, or were not of the same political idealogy that gets intertwined within conversations of the early days of these movements. Not all British punk bands wanted Anarchy in the U.K., especially as the scene later evolved.

Thus my objection to the thread in a manner.....I could care less about the roots of goth or the counter culture element. I like VNV Nation and that's the only reason I've stepped foot in City Club. I'm sure there are more like me, people who could care less about being goth, they just like the tunes and the reason runs no deeper than that. Is there a disconnect between the original goth scene and the scene at City Club? Yes, obviously. Do the old school goths have a right to be upset about it? Sure. I would be too if I were them. But I'm not. I don't care about the old goths or the new kids with glow sticks or the cybergoths or whoever. I just like the music. And I think Voltaire is sort of funny sometimes.

[Paper Hearts]

I'm just saying that alot of people - alot of influential people - in the goth and punk movements were either not interested in politics at all, or were not of the same political idealogy that gets intertwined within conversations of the early days of these movements.  Not all British punk bands wanted Anarchy in the U.K., especially as the scene later evolved. 

Thus my objection to the thread in a manner.....I could care less about the roots of goth or the counter culture element.  I like VNV Nation and that's the only reason I've stepped foot in City Club.  I'm sure there are more like me, people who could care less about being goth, they just like the tunes and the reason runs no deeper than that.    Is there a disconnect between the original goth scene and the scene at City Club?  Yes, obviously.  Do the old school goths have a right to be upset about it? Sure.  I would be too if I were them.  But I'm not.  I don't care about the old goths or the new kids with glow sticks or the cybergoths or whoever.  I just like the music.  And I think Voltaire is sort of funny sometimes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, I've edited my last post a bit^. But anyway, I don't think these were people anti-Thatcherite so much as simply being EFFECTED by Thatcherism. Hooliganism effected by Thatcherism is what I say.

In our Post-Post-Modern world of today, the politics of the music are naturally different...and in a way, I think that's what Steve was asking, "what happened to our music?'. I think he's also asking people to justify their being involved in the goth scene...personally it's not something i'm curious about or want to know about people though. But art has political refferences...and if you look at GB in that era, I'm not sure what else you'd tie to the emergence of punk rock.

And do not forget all the work J Marr did w/ Billy Bragg...must mean something. Low blow using the name of Marr against me. lol

[phee]

I kind of agree with both aspects of this...

When I right music... I try to keep politics out of it... BUT.... the people whom I am influenced by most of them do not... or... the mood of the music is influenced by the surroundings in some way

[sinmantyx]

I grew up in a small town in the 80's. The popular music of the time: hair bands and metal were usually full of vacuous shock value, sex-drugs-rock-n-roll bullshit, STUPID STUPID girlly groupies, with no hint of intellectual stimulation ---- hence the alternative music underground which in a few hilarious years were emulated by STUPID STUPID drunk-ass idiots buying pre-ripped jeans and flannels to look like the poor, unpopular and unattractive kids who shopped at second-hand stores and couldn't afford to surf every trend but were too smart to drink or smoke their brains into cheese.

It was the stuff of the intellectual poor. The highschool students smart enough and disciplined enough to do well in school, but who knew they had fewer opportunities because of their economic class. The ones who were sleep deprived, stressed out and unhealthy enough to constantly struggle with depression, manic-depression and borderline personality disorder; and wore it on their sleeve everyday secretly hoping someone would give a shit. The ones who actually watched the news and knew horrible things were happening in the world, and not getting over the guilt of being safer and well-fed and seemingly powerless to do a damn thing about it....we were just overfed American pigs, and not feeling bad about yourself meant you could really care less. We weren't nilhists, we just cared too much about what other people didn't care about and every once in a while just shut off in frustration and hopelessness.

For a while there, wearing a black coat or making fashion your own art form or wearing a band shirt made you identifiable and someone who identified with these shared experiences.

I sometimes joke that I was goth when goth was punk. These days I think a lot of groups have somehow grown together as one large alternative to a mainstream that many of us have grown to hate or just aren't suited for. $500 vinyl outfits are kinda new....I think all the kids that played role-playing games, listened to The Cure or Bauhaus, and wore dead grandpa's hand-me-downs grew up and started spending money.

[Paper Hearts]

I kind of agree with both aspects of this...

When I right music... I try to keep politics out of it... BUT.... the people whom I am influenced by most of them do not... or... the mood of the music is influenced by the surroundings in some way

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you'd be very post-post-modern then. And I think that makes you very political, because that's part of the mood of art today...to leave politics out. But people are popularly leaving politics out of art for a reason...which in itself is a political statement.

Changes in art (music in this case) happen naturally. Sure there's someone at the begining that has a theory, but that theory is a product of an environment. And it's something that a lot of people are feeling in that environment, not just the person who happened to notice it first. It becomes a movement, but not because it's hip or cool really...but because it's the only thing to do. It's just what feels right.

Would you agree w/ that?

[Blackmail]

Sure, I've edited my last post a bit^. But anyway, I don't think these were people anti-Thatcherite so much as simply being EFFECTED by Thatcherism. Hooliganism effected by Thatcherism is what I say.

Sure, but remember there are disenfranchised teens in every Country on earth in every politcal system. Rap music of the 80's was all about having fun and partying but in the 90's became darker and more violent. Sometimes politics have nothing to do with fads, sometimes it's just a fad.

In our Post-Post-Modern world of today, the politics of the music are naturally different...and in a way, I think that's what Steve was asking, "what happened to our music?'.

Well, punk had a very limited shelf life. Goth music is still around today but because there isn't much demand for it, it is relegated to small indie labels who put out goth and death rock.

I think he's also asking people to justify their being involved in the goth scene...

That's the thing about scene's, you don't need to justify anything, you just need to be there.

But art has political refferences...and if you look at GB in that era, I'm not sure what else you'd tie to the emergence of punk rock.

Some art has politcal references. Some doesn't. Sure Thatcherism had alot to do with the start of punk. But not all of the early punk bands were anti-Thatcher. Do these bands need to justify themselves?

And do not forget all the work J Marr did w/ Billy Bragg...must mean something. Low blow using the name of Marr against me. lol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not sure what Marr's politcal opinions are, I just remember an article from him about the Falklands and how he supported Great Britains 'right to self defense' as he put it, which was a Thatcher decision. Morrissey is obviously pretty left wing and Marr hates everything about Morrissey so that must mean he belongs to the BNP. Although that could be wrong too because Morrissey has also been accused of being a racist.

Phee, I listen to alot of dark music. I doubt most of it is influenced by anything other than an interest in dark music. I'm a pretty happy guy but I am attracted to dark music. Sometimes it doesn't mean anything.

[Paper Hearts]

I grew up in a small town in the 80's.  The popular music of the time: hair bands and metal were usually full of vacuous shock value, sex-drugs-rock-n-roll bullshit, STUPID STUPID girlly groupies, with no hint of intellectual stimulation ----  hence the alternative music underground which in a few hilarious years were emulated by STUPID STUPID drunk-ass idiots buying pre-ripped jeans and flannels to look like the poor, unpopular and unattractive kids who shopped at second-hand stores and couldn't afford to surf every trend but were too smart to drink or smoke their brains into cheese.

It was the stuff of the intellectual poor.  The highschool students smart enough and disciplined enough to do well in school, but who knew they had fewer opportunities because of their economic class.  The ones who were sleep deprived, stressed out and unhealthy enough to constantly struggle with depression, manic-depression and borderline personality disorder; and wore it on their sleeve everyday secretly hoping someone would give a shit.  The ones who actually watched the news and knew horrible things were happening in the world, and not getting over the guilt of being safer and well-fed and seemingly powerless to do a damn thing about it....we were just overfed American pigs, and not feeling bad about yourself meant you could really care less.  We weren't nilhists, we just cared too much about what other people didn't care about and every once in a while just shut off in frustration and hopelessness.

For a while there, wearing a black coat or making fashion your own art form or wearing a band shirt made you identifiable and someone who identified with these shared experiences.

I sometimes joke that I was goth when goth was punk.  These days I think a lot of groups have somehow grown together as one large alternative to a mainstream that many of us have grown to hate or just aren't suited for.  $500 vinyl outfits are kinda new....I think all the kids that played role-playing games, listened to The Cure or Bauhaus, and wore dead grandpa's hand-me-downs grew up and started spending money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, and in truth, if you were into punk in 76 or goth in hell, even 78 you were a rare MF. Iggy Pop said it best, I think--when interviewed about why he was letting one of (his) punk's sentinel songs be used for a car commercial, he responded, 'the only people who bought that album or came to the shows when that stuff was new were guys with really bad jobs who drove piece of shit cars--I hardly made a penny; I'm 50 years old now...if someone wants to use one of the songs to sell breakfast sausage, what the fuck can I possibly care?'.

[holliwood66]

Never was goth...did the punk scene for 6 years or so then gave that up for the most part. The aggression, style, and general humor/mayhem of the lower MI punk scene from 87-93 or so suited where I was at the time.

When I went to CC in the early 90's I always had on retro-20's or 50s clothing and fit in just fine with the metalheads, punks, oi-boys, gothpupae and other folk lurking about.

I do appreciate classic gothy music and the fashions are fun (if rather stagnant at this point) It's nice to be where a general dark sense of humor is appreciated. Also, I do love a boy with eyeliner on

[Paper Hearts]

i never see the classic ripped pink t-shirt with pressed on triangle shapes form acrylic paints at clubs for instance. I've yet to see punk or goth fashion in practice. I see a lot of people wearing things inspired by Gen X porn from the 90s or something...but not proper Goth or Punk fashion.

[phee]

That's the thing about scene's, you don't need to justify anything, you just need to be there.

That is what I have been trying to say in these "gothier than thou threads" for years now.... thanks for saying that